Repeating Programs - Pros and Cons

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

The ISU already stated they will revise the judging system - and it's is actually already Hanyus fault. Try to push some system breaking onto someone else, okay?

Also, I'd guess it was stated in this thread already, but focusing on the jumps is likely not the only reason Yuzu decided to go back to old programs. His LP last season (Hope&Legacy) wasn't well received, to the point where he and his team thought about ditching it for Worlds. They probably don't want to risk having another program with bad reception in the Oly season. Of course everyone takes the risk of a program not being received well every time they go for a new one, but the deciding factor here is that it's Oly season. That one season people care about FS and were the skaters go for the biggest most important price of them all - the OGM (honestly, I wished the OGM wasn't rated so highly compared to WC & all that, but what can we do). Buttom line: no, I doubt we'll see him keeping his programs even further than this season. Even if he goes for the 4A..

If H&L was so poorly received (even though it did get a WR/personal best, mind you), he could have also come up with a new program. Certainly H&L wasn't as poorly received as is the reception to his decision to repeat 2 already-perfectly-skated programs from the same season.

Unless the intent all along was to repeat his best SP and best LP of the past quadrennial for the Olympics with harder jumps, and not bother with creating any new program(s) for the Olympic season.

I understand him going with programs that are already well-received... I just wish he and his team had shown confidence, fearlessness, and creativity to try something new and unseen. Even for just 1 of the 2 programs.

 

[Sydney Rose]

In this interview, Hanyu explains why he brought back Ballade, over Let's go Crazy, which was his first intention.

From that interview you posted:

Q: Who made the final decision to skate to Ballade No.1?

Y: That’s a team decision. Although people might say “What’s with showing it for a third season?”… But, with theatre and opera––Takarazuka might also be the case––don’t they do it many times? As reruns. Aren’t there also things that deepen and heighten from repeating? All of these people are giving performances that make people think they want to watch over and over again, right? In a certain sense, it’s the same with skating, and you don’t want to go into competition with something that doesn’t go far beyond the surface, do you? If I polish and sharpen that program on top of a proper, deepened understanding that comes from heart, then I do want to spend more time. My feeling is that it is a program worth devoting time to. In terms of the music, as well as the contents of the performance, it is a program appropriate for the Olympics. Amongst those of my programs in the beautiful category (lit. kirei-kei), it also is one that has stood out and one that I’m gradually close to mastering, so the skating is really nice to watch. I feel that, finally, it ended up being the chosen program because of its variety of merits.

 

[Li'Kitsu]

In this interview, Hanyu explains why he brought back Ballade, over Let's go Crazy, which was his first intention.

Doesn't explain at all though why he wanted to repeat a SP at all, and why a new one apparently wasn't an option. Just why he chose Chopin over LGC (and a lot of stuff about Chopin that just makes me feel the program is even more overrated then I always thought anyway )

If H&L was so poorly received (even though it did get a WR/personal best, mind you), he could have also come up with a new program. Certainly H&L wasn't as poorly received as is the reception to his decision to repeat 2 already-perfectly-skated programs from the same season.

H&L was solely a WR based on BV though. If he had kept the 2015-16 layout, the score would have been lower then both NHK & GPF 2015.

As for the latter part - we don't know how judges/officials are going to receive his program repeats next season. I'm not talking about fan reception, I doubt that would have made him think about changing his LP.

I understand him going with programs that are already well-received... I just wish he and his team had shown confidence, fearlessness, and creativity to try something new and unseen. Even for just 1 of the 2 programs.

Oh believe me, me too. I'm happy to see Seimei back, as it's my absolute favorite program of his and I can see how he can still improve it... Chopin though, I couldn't be more disappointed with that. That just doesn't mean I agree with the notion repeat programs should get a PCS penalty for example.

 

[Violet Bliss]

So Hanyu's original SP choice for this season was Let's Go Crazy. A new program has never been part of his 2018 Olympic plan.

 

[MaiKatze]

So Hanyu's original SP choice for this season was Let's Go Crazy. A new program has never been part of his 2018 Olympic plan.

Is that certain, though? Perhaps these decisions really only happen after Worlds - it's still enough time to decide on something new. I wish he would've repeated Let's go crazy, if he absolutely wanted to repeat. I remember Seimei wasn't exactly the most well received program also - until he skated it clean at NHK and then sold it again with as much energy at GPF. Before that I remember our commentators disliking the program (at Skate Canada), saying it was slow and they didn't understand it. After GPF it just lost it's power because it wasn't skated clean again, when everyone now expected that. And I think this was the problem also with Hope & Legacy. In itself I think it's not a lesser program, in my opinion it's one of his best and equals Seimei. But he didn't skate it clean until Worlds. And he didn't do what he did in the 15/16 season, skate a clean SP and a clean LP in the competition. That pushed his scores. He would've scored higher if he had been more consistent. That was the problem, and not the program Hope & Legacy. And to come back to the topic, I think trying to recreate that magic of Chopin&Seimei of NHK&GPF is going to be mighty hard. If not impossible. Sometimes these repeats are not the best ideas. It's been discussed and I've written it somewhere in this thread before, but the repeat of exactly the same two programs he had such success with in 15/16 might be a nice idea on paper, but I also think it could go the wrong way. I wish him all the best, but it's a fact that Yuzuru is not the most consistent skater. Trying to recreate success like this...I have my doubts that this strategy will work.

 

[skylark]

From that interview you posted:

Q: Who made the final decision to skate to Ballade No.1?

Y: .... In a certain sense, it’s the same with skating, and you don’t want to go into competition with something that doesn’t go far beyond the surface, do you? If I polish and sharpen that program on top of a proper, deepened understanding that comes from heart, then I do want to spend more time. My feeling is that it is a program worth devoting time to. In terms of the music, as well as the contents of the performance, it is a program appropriate for the Olympics.​

:agree: Yuzuru stated all of this beautifully. I'm completely on board with an elite competitor in figure skating, which is both sport and art, who's interested in these nuances and considerations. He seems to want to propel the sport forward, not only in the technical sense but also in the artistic sense. But for himself, not to impose a direction on other skaters.

It's important also to remember that not every skater will feel that way, (Gracie, for example, said once that repeating her SP from the Sochi year, even though she'd only done it for half that season, made her feel that she'd already done that, and wasn't going forward). It's individual; and that's perfectly fine. It makes the field richer to have a variety of skating philosophies and desires represented.

Patrick Chan wants to move the sport in the direction he values, where edges and technique create the beauty and emotion that he desires. (that's a wild summation; pardon me if I misstated, and feel free to correct me.) Yuzuru values the beauty and emotion of going deeper into his own understanding and his own heart. Two different approaches. I think we're lucky.

 

[kiches]

Is that certain, though? Perhaps these decisions really only happen after Worlds - it's still enough time to decide on something new. I wish he would've repeated Let's go crazy, if he absolutely wanted to repeat. I remember Seimei wasn't exactly the most well received program also - until he skated it clean at NHK and then sold it again with as much energy at GPF. Before that I remember our commentators disliking the program (at Skate Canada), saying it was slow and they didn't understand it. After GPF it just lost it's power because it wasn't skated clean again, when everyone now expected that. And I think this was the problem also with Hope & Legacy. In itself I think it's not a lesser program, in my opinion it's one of his best and equals Seimei. But he didn't skate it clean until Worlds. And he didn't do what he did in the 15/16 season, skate a clean SP and a clean LP in the competition. That pushed his scores. He would've scored higher if he had been more consistent. That was the problem, and not the program Hope & Legacy. And to come back to the topic, I think trying to recreate that magic of Chopin&Seimei of NHK&GPF is going to be mighty hard. If not impossible. Sometimes these repeats are not the best ideas. It's been discussed and I've written it somewhere in this thread before, but the repeat of exactly the same two programs he had such success with in 15/16 might be a nice idea on paper, but I also think it could go the wrong way. I wish him all the best, but it's a fact that Yuzuru is not the most consistent skater. Trying to recreate success like this...I have my doubts that this strategy will work.

Hmm, my memory of Semei's reception is a bit different from yours, maybe I need to go back and re-watch the Skate Canada commentary you're referring to but the general feeling I got was that Seimei was well received right off the bat. I remember there were comments from both Jeff Buttle and Elvis Stojko when they first saw it at Autumn Classic in Barrie and both really liked the program and in general there was a lot of positive buzz around it when the first full glimpse of it was revealed at Autumn Classic practice. I think it was the weaker performance of it at Skate Canada that some were not a fan of rather than the program itself, and after NHK Trophy Kurt Browning said in his podcast with PJ Kwong that he didn't need to know the story behind the program to see the intensity and integrity of the program so I think Seimei was very well received even before he skated it cleanly.

With Hope and Legacy I think the issue was that it's a more introverted program. His past free skates were much more dramatic and had themes or backstories that were more obvious and easier to relate to, although I think a lot of people related to Hope and Legacy immediately. Although I will say that clean skates definitely work to bring out the best in anyone's program and is usually when the intent of the program is closest to being fully realized. When we see a clean performance it's usually the best representation of a skater's program so naturally it's easier to appreciate a program after you've seen it actualized.

Since Yuzuru's interview was linked about why he chose to use Chopin again (and repeating Chopin I see as a the pragmatic decision vs Seimei), I think it may be interesting to link to the translation of Shae-Lynn's interview from his recent media day. Shae-Lynn says that she had suggested he do Seimei again a month after Worlds, so she, as his choreographer, also thought doing this program again was the perfect fit for the Olympics.

If I remember correctly, I think Phillip Mills mentioned during his interview with TSL that he felt as a dancer it took him at least 20 performances of the same dance before he felt comfortable with it, so he was surprised that skaters were expected to be comfortable with their programs after only performing them a handful of times (I need to rewatch this interview to see how exactly how he said this, so I'm paraphrasing from memory). Taking a comment like this from a choreographer and former ballet dancer into account, why should it be frowned upon if a skater decides their best vehicle is to bring back a program they feel has room to grow? Likewise I don't think points should be awarded just because someone is trying something new or different if that new or different doesn't work out, there have already been several skaters who have decided to change their programs after having them choreographed because they didn't feel it was the best choice for this season. I wouldn't award points for trying or attempting new material unless it actually produced results or an impact, same with a repeated program. It also shouldn't get greater points unless it shows a greater result.

 

[OS]

So Hanyu's original SP choice for this season was Let's Go Crazy. A new program has never been part of his 2018 Olympic plan.

Noooo way .... thank goodness he didn't. Otherwise than I'd have to deduct PCS 3 points just for that lavender pants costume.

(Someone better stop me now. Can't take another 10 pages explanation on why Yuzu shouldn't receive deduction for that pastel native american psychedelic dressup for that funk n' roll program. Superb 3A moment though.)

 

[VIETgrlTerifa]

Noooo way .... thank goodness he didn't. Otherwise than I'd have to deduct PCS 3 points just for that lavender pants costume.

(Someone better stop me now. Can't take another 10 pages explanation on why Yuzu shouldn't receive deduction for that pastel native american psychedelic dressup for that funk n' roll program. Superb 3A moment though.)

Wasn't that outfit almost an exact replica of an outfit Prince wore while performing?

 

[MaiKatze]

Hmm, my memory of Semei's reception is a bit different from yours, maybe I need to go back and re-watch the Skate Canada commentary you're referring to but the general feeling I got was that Seimei was well received right off the bat.

I'm referring to my native Eurosport commentators who weren't exactly smitten with it.

Yes, you're right about skating clean vs. not clean. The magic of a clean skate is amazing. That's why I always wanted Hope & Legacy skated clean and was really happy he made such a performance at Worlds. For me personally I think that both Let's go crazy and Hope & Legacy still had potential, while I don't believe there is much potential in Chopin&Seimei left. The general feeling remains that the clean back to back performances and World records of 2015 were something really special and the magical highlight of Yuzuru's career more so than his Olympic Gold Medal even. And it seems to me that this is a bit too desperate an attempt to recreate this wonder. But what's done is done, and who knows maybe Yuzuru will be crazy consistent and break all the records and I'll eat my words.

 

[Violet Bliss]

Patrick Chan wants to move the sport in the direction he values, where edges and technique create the beauty and emotion that he desires. (that's a wild summation; pardon me if I misstated, and feel free to correct me.)

It's more of him holding on to his concept of ideal skating. Initially he moved the sport towards multiple quads with intricate footwork but with the extreme scoring power of quads, the new generation of top Men are those with quads galore, beyond what Patrick imagined. Meanwhile, he chose to devote himself to the artistic expression of figure skating, training with a dance coach despite all the derision. As of today, his mastery of the blade and beauty of movements is mesmerizing. He will be doing 5 quads in 2 programs this season, barely competitive BV wise in the contending league, and PCS will not be fairly and adequately awarded for his level of mastery. But as reflected in his choices of music this year and as aspired by his fans, the highest medals are nice and possible, but not the absolute goal and measure of his skating anymore. Of course they will be joyously celebrated, along with all the moving performances he brings. Having had his glories and made his mark, he is free to continue to make his mark his way.

Yuzuru values the beauty and emotion of going deeper into his own understanding and his own heart. Two different approaches. I think we're lucky.

We are lucky to have been in the era of Men's skating with excellent technical and skating skills, with Chan and Hanyu as the epitome. I hope we don't transition into a quad-centric era discarding the beauty of figure skating.

 

[kiches]

I'm referring to my native Eurosport commentators who weren't exactly smitten with it.

Yes, you're right about skating clean vs. not clean. The magic of a clean skate is amazing. That's why I always wanted Hope & Legacy skated clean and was really happy he made such a performance at Worlds. For me personally I think that both Let's go crazy and Hope & Legacy still had potential, while I don't believe there is much potential in Chopin&Seimei left. The general feeling remains that the clean back to back performances and World records of 2015 were something really special and the magical highlight of Yuzuru's career more so than his Olympic Gold Medal even. And it seems to me that this is a bit too desperate an attempt to recreate this wonder. But what's done is done, and who knows maybe Yuzuru will be crazy consistent and break all the records and I'll eat my words.

Thanks for clarifying about your native Eurosport commentators, while that particular commentary is not one I've heard myself, I still stand by my earlier comment that I think in general Seimei was well received from the moment it was unveiled by most people.

I too, think Let's go Crazy and Hope and Legacy still have potential (Let's Go Crazy more than Hope and Legacy, I have a hard time picturing it being better than what it was at Worlds - the camera work did a poor job of capturing what happened live), but I don't think Hope and Legacy would've been the right program for the Olympics as it seems to have less universal appeal. Seimei I'll have to disagree on, as I always thought he could still improve upon it in performance, jump execution (that 3rd quad in the second half could've improved in quality), and a consistent execution of a level 4 step sequence. I do understand where you're coming from with Chopin though, the way he skated it at the GPF and even Worlds in Boston was probably as close to perfection as I've seen - but if he says he can do more with it then he'll just have to skate and prove it to the fans familiar with the program. I think the performances I've seen from Fantasy on Ice already give me a different impression than the 2015/2016 version, so it may be possible.

 

[xeyra]

We are lucky to have been in the era of Men's skating with excellent technical and skating skills, with Chan and Hanyu as the epitome. I hope we don't transition into a quad-centric era discarding the beauty of figure skating.

From what seems to be the rumors on the new scoring for the post-Olympics season, with lowering quad value and increasing GOE's interval from -3/+3 to -5/+5 in order to reward quality and good triples against a poor quad, maybe ISU also wants a bit more balance. Whether their ideas will work and which ones they'll go with, we'll have to see.

 

[FCSSp4]

Wasn't that outfit almost an exact replica of an outfit Prince wore while performing?

lol yes it was, especially the white one. it's a brave costume all things considered

 

[Violet Bliss]

From what seems to be the rumors on the new scoring for the post-Olympics season, with lowering quad value and increasing GOE's interval from -3/+3 to -5/+5 in order to reward quality and good triples against a poor quad, maybe ISU also wants a bit more balance. Whether their ideas will work and which ones they'll go with, we'll have to see.

More balance? With the maximum value of each quad raised by 2 points, what is going to be the obviously best investment for skaters? Quads, quads, quads, the more the merrier. GOE for a quad or triple alone exceeds total value of lesser elements like spins and particularly the Choreographic StSq with BV of measly 2 pts. Damn the skating skills and the capped PCS.

Reactionary rules/laws usually bring unexpected consequences but the the consequences of this rule change by ISU, if implemented as described, is highly predictable.

 

[4everchan]

Wasn't that outfit almost an exact replica of an outfit Prince wore while performing?

Are you saying that not only he repeats programs but he repeats outfits ?

 

[Neenah16]

More balance? With the maximum value of each quad raised by 2 points, what is going to be the obviously best investment for skaters? Quads, quads, quads, the more the merrier. GOE for a quad or triple alone exceeds total value of lesser elements like spins and particularly the Choreographic StSq with BV of measly 2 pts. Damn the skating skills and the capped PCS.

Reactionary rules/laws usually bring unexpected consequences but the the consequences of this rule change by ISU, if implemented as described, is highly predictable.

Where did you get the information that the maximum value will be raised by two points? I haven't seen that anywhere. What I did see is that they may be reducing the BV for quads and increasing the range of GOE, but with no details on how the new range works. We don't know if +5 GOE translates to +5 points, it could still be +3

 

[Blades of Passion]

Out of curiosity, I've done some research, and here are some examples I've turned up of skaters repeating two programs in the same season.

Bonaly doesn't count as a repeat, she used 4 Seasons for almost all of 1993-1994 (and at all of the most important events). Sokolova's 2007 LP was different than her 2006 program, I don't see how you are counting that at all. Totmianina didn't repeat SP+LP and their 2004 LP was different. Stojko was a special case, that was for sure his last season ever and neither of the programs had been used recently (nor repeated before), nor together in the same season.

So that leaves Kazakova/Dmitriev. Yeah, they did blatantly double repeat.

 

[Blades of Passion]

More balance? With the maximum value of each quad raised by 2 points, what is going to be the obviously best investment for skaters? Quads, quads, quads, the more the merrier.

The new +GOE scaling is going to be different, it's not to going to be +5 points possible for a single quad.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Noooo way .... thank goodness he didn't. Otherwise than I'd have to deduct PCS 3 points just for that lavender pants costume.

(Someone better stop me now. Can't take another 10 pages explanation on why Yuzu shouldn't receive deduction for that pastel native american psychedelic dressup for that funk n' roll program. Superb 3A moment though.)

Because if they did give him a costume deduction the ISU would be inundated with hate mail and those judges would never be able to safely visit Japan ever again?

P.s. I actually was fine with the purple pants... the white ones, not so much.