Russia Doping Report | Page 6 | Golden Skate

Russia Doping Report

I'm surprised to have been a silent member for so long only to have this as my first post. I competed in athletics from childhood through university so doping in sport is a topic I take very seriously, having seen it in action, and I wanted to voice my opinion on the subject.

Before I go further, I need to say something; when I read posts where Russians are referred to in extremes such as "scary" it makes me sad. I recall how ALL Canadians have to put up with Ben Johnson remarks decades later when athletes from all over the world have since done similar, or much worse, than Johnson did in his day. I realize the current controversy concerns Russia but Russian athletes, and Russians in general, don't deserve to be labelled a nation of outrageous cheaters in comparison to everyone else. If the latest WADA investigation holds truth - and I expect it does - then Russia is simply the country that got caught this time. While there are differing degrees of corruption, don't be naive enough to assume they're alone in widespread or even state-sponsored doping.

Many athletes, and those in the know concerning performance enhancing drugs (PEDs), often casually refer to doping controls as an IQ test. Only the dumb and lazy get caught. It's actually a bit more complicated than that; an effective doping program requires funding and professional overseers - doctors, trainers, etc - to slip by unnoticed at elite levels. Also remember that testing can only catch what is known to be in use and has been studied to discover screening methods for. Doping developments are always at least two steps ahead of testing capabilities, hence why so many cases come to light only years later, if ever. When testing facilities are compromised, be that by intimidation, payoff or questionable integrity, and when friends/family hide evidence by lies or deliberate omission, then it gets even harder to know who is using what and why.

Elite, well-funded athletes have 'programs' which encompass different PED schedules timed to competition and peak performance at key events. Freelancers, those who try to run such a program without close supervision, and athletes representing small or poorly funded federations are usually the ones getting caught and they often find themselves used as examples of anti-doping effectiveness when the stars at the top of the chain are the bigger offenders, sometimes (though rarely nowadays) without total knowledge of the pharmaceutical power behind them or clear understanding of potential consequences.

It starts young, younger than most people want to believe. Promising junior, or even younger, athletes are often encouraged by people in authority positions to begin doping in order to reach their potential - the "You have to, because everyone else will" talk.

When big names - individuals, organizations or even countries - get caught it's usually one of two scenarios; a former insider scapegoated or shortchanged along the way talks or success leads to arrogance spawning incredulity. Going for increasingly ridiculous records, openly flaunting inexplicable success, lax secrecy and forgetting the rules have to at least appear to apply to everyone is how investigations like the one currently happening start.

PED use is everywhere. There are no 100% clean sports so long as money and prestige are part of the reward. Individuals are motivated to dope for fame and fortune, out of competitive drive to win at all costs or simply because they don't believe it to be wrong.* Teams do it for money and rankings. Nations do it for patriotic propaganda. Sports are big business, including at the semi-pro and Olympic levels, and there's a LOT of money to be made in performance enhancement.

Every sport has different physical attributes that correlate with success. Is there doping in skating? Almost certainly. Endurance, suppressed/delayed physical maturation, strength, explosive power for jumps and throws, recovery aids and over-training injury prevention...there are all kinds of directions researchers can explore. How far developments have progressed is something most can only guess at and those who know the answer are unlikely to willingly share their knowledge.

* And they aren't alone. The percentage of spectators who willingly accept PED use in exchange for bigger, stronger and faster results, who see doping as just one more training method, is increasing. Society is starting to take an "everyone is doing it, so why fight scientific progress" attitude. :(

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Sorry for the lengthy ramble. It's just that, as I began with, I care about this topic. I want clean and fair sport - and, unlike many, I advocate for no exceptions, strict enforcement of the anti-doping rules (sorry, Caro) - but personal experience has shown me that we may be past the point where such can ever be restored. That hasn't changed my love of competition, and I still enjoy watching records fall and new milestones achieved, but I know why some of it is happening and have to accept that.

I'll go back to quietly lurking now. Carry on conversing, folks. :)
 
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Great post SpiffySpiders!!!!! Welcome to posting at GS...hopefully we'll hear more from you in the future :yes:

Hurrah....I find it a bit irresponsible to make those allegations based on what little factual input you seem to have on the matter. Unfounded rumors aren't going to help anything and are only going to put people on the defensive.
 
Maybe I just feel like pointing out the white elephant in the room? Do you think it would help get rid of doping in elite sports not to talk about it at all? We are discussing this now because Russia is openly accused of STATE-SPONSORED doping, right?
 
Don't go back to lurking, SpiffySpider. A reasoned, informed, and articulate poster who writes this well is so welcomed and appreciated! Post long and often please.


Dopers are like tax evaders - the blatant, the big offenders, the stupid, and those who get snitched on are the ones who get caught.

eta. I want to add that I believe there are clean high performing athletes who deal with various physical issues with non Western conventional but legal treatments. Advantageous sometimes but not unfair.
 
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gmyers does make a very good point. This has less to do with any individual skater knowingly or unknowingly taking drugs, and more about the Russian Lab and "Urine donation program" . Though it may not seem fair to us if Adeline had her medal stripped, fairness ain't got nothin' to do with this. This is the rule of law. And as most police officers know, the law has little to do with justice. ABC news reported tonight (IIRC which is a big if) that Sochi results could be affected and there was at least one American who stood to gain....

If there ARE smoking guns all over the floor, however, remember what happened at Salt Lake and the Pairs Gold medal.....

I predict that if there are a bushel basket full of smoking guns, there will be sanctions for the future...I would be shocked if Adeline lost HER medal.....I wouldnt want to be a track and field Russian Gold medalist, however....

If Adelina lost her medal, so would Plushenko, Yulia and the other Russian team members as well as the individual medalists in pairs and ice dance.
 
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Could we please stay objective?

Now, if one uses the "the athlete was constantly injured so he/she was not doping", i don´t think it makes that much sense. We could use the same argument to prove russians didnt dope too - as there are plenty of athletes getting injured - from big FS names, Liza, Adelina, V/T, B/S... Just in 5 seconds. They all ended up missing some big events. Plushi at Sochi is a great one too. K/S missed Sochi - at that point, they were sharing the #2 top russian team with S/K. According to your logic, it is impossible for russian figure skaters to dope, make sure you include them in the list ^^

As for your examples, it is also scary how D/R upped their tech in such an advanced age. For a comparison, K/S had their quad throw since 2006, and D/R got it in 2014 i think. If you are afraid that K/S may be doping to up their tech, D/R is like 100% certain as they got the quad at much more advanced age.
It is scary how Sui/Han manage to be that consistent, she just pulls out all the landings no matter what... I wouldnt be surprised.
Hanyu... That Sochi scores that he never managed to match after that... I wouldnt be surprised.
Mao Asada - she just came back after a season without skating, and she is in such a great form. She suddenly is landing all her 3As... I wouldn´t be surprised.

No, i´m not saying i suspect those athlethes dope, just extending your logic a bit.

K/S were doing quad throws back in 2006, pretty much since they teamed up, for example, and Yuko learned the quad throws around 2004. Are you seriously calling 10 years of experience sudden? And if you mean after missing a year - and the Winter Olympics - well, they got back, they had a so-so season, and now they are back in full form ^^ Nothing sudden, not everybody is Mao Asada to come back from a break and rock from the first compo, many teams need some time.
 
I can't get over the amount of coverage this story has been getting on the TV over the past 24 hours.

The British media have been going hysterical about the report. They have been going on and on about how this could affect the results from the London 2012 Olympics. (There seems to be a rule in the British media that all stories about sports that are not Men's football have to relate in some way to the 2012 Olympics. And it is so annoying!)

And I have to laugh. Why?

BECAUSE THIS IS NOT A BREAKING NEWS STORY!!!

Well I am glad this is big news now, seeing this is a serious breach of trust at the highest level.

The Olympics movement is part of how we define ourselves as the best of humanity, social equality, fairness, the edge of human possibilities, and it is about time someone properly stand up for hardworking sportsmen everywhere who deserve to compete in transparent fair games. Like it or not, London 2012 is part of Britain's legacy where as a nation we have spent billions on it, and for this to have happened in our backyard is frankly embarrassing, unacceptable and a total mess that need to be cleaned up and rectified asap. No patch up job. No compromises. It has just got to be done. Russia hosted Sochi, if they are responsible, they should do the same. Russia may be just the starting point, they will certainly need to continue with others.

If you look at the league table of confirmed cases of doping violation released by the NYTimes article Mrs.P posted, according to June 2013 figures (exclude Sochi) for 89 sports over 115 countries, these were the top 10 violators

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/10/s...onsored-doping-program-report-finds.html?_r=1

Russia overwhelmingly leads the listing with the highest record of confirmed violation that account for 11.5% of all cases up to 2013. One can only guess those who managed to get away since and during is likely substantially higher on a relative basis, particularly IF it is a state sanctioned practice as Wada found. United States is ranked 11th, Britain and German are not on the list, so likely to have the greatest motivation to clean up so their athletes can compete fairly.

I have also noted none of the Asian countries including China is on the list. This makes me angry and disgusted remembering the biggest sensationalist story over the London games, was the unfounded accusation against the young Chinese swimmer 16 years old sensation Ye Shiwen who won multiple golds and should be held up as a hero, but instead of met with congratulations, she faced overwhelming amount of accusation of doping all over the press. Some even pointed to her large hands as 'evidence', even with nothing to back it up, and she has been repeatedly been tested negative, before, during and after. Now that is sensationalist, irresponsible journalism and public bullying of the highest order including by the BBC. London games at that point has been stained by the inherent prejudice against rising China for me which was totally unacceptable and unethical. Particularly next day we had the incredibly tall and long limbed 15years old American Katie Ledecky did similar sensational swim beating Britain's home fav Rebecca Adlington, yet no one bat an eye. What disgraceful double standard phase of the British journalism that shows its prejudices reeling its ugly head against a rising Superpower, with the 16 years old Golds sensation paying the price as the unintended go between.

This is the tipping point hopefully, otherwise it will continue to go on for years and people will continue to put up with lies and deceits. Can it be political? Absolutely! But everything can be political. The national health care is political, but there's always the need for better health care everywhere even if it is not always on the news headlines. Good healthcare is a human right, so should a fair Olympic movement and beyond that.
 
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I have two very naive questions.

1. If a steroid helps someone recover from a serious injury, is there a reason why athletes shouldn't be allowed to use them? If they're recovering, they're not competing, presumably. Is it because the drug has other effects that would outlast the injury recovery period?

2. Would growth inhibitors only be useful to female figure skaters? Would male skaters gain an advantage from them?

Sorry for the naïveté, but I just don't know much.
 
I am not sure that we or the posters here have over dramatized the story to Sochi and figure skating. WE almost in some cases have mass hysteria created not by the general public but skating fanatics lol even people jumping to will Sotnikova have to give up her medal. Why wasn't there more of an uproar about East Germany and Witt well mind you they didn't have the media we have now and internet. I think we have to be careful about blowing this all out of proportionin respect to skating . And I don't like even in the back of the mind kind of attitude "the big bad Russians. Come on this is skating and drugs does not seem to be the issue as in other sports. And they are innocent until proven guilty I would hope.
 
And they are innocent until proven guilty I would hope.

This is my feeling too. I absolutely do not doubt that this is a huge problem throughout sports, nor do I doubt it is widespread throughout certain federations who assist many (perhaps even the majority) of their athletes to do this, but if you want me to believe any specific athlete cheated, then prove it.
 
Griffit-Joyner died at 38 - was never caught, Marione Johns was never caught while competing, great Carl Lewis and doping controversy, etc. American track-n-field is cleaner than Russian? Give me a break. Any investigation against the U.S.A., sanctions against the U.S.A.? That will never happen.
 
Along with illegal performance enhancing aids, there have also been many legal performance enhancing aids developed as well as new health and sport knowledge researched and learned. And then there are natural talents, hard work, smart training and clean and healthy living. So not all great achievers should automatically be suspects.
 
So I did a quick google and found out that a Russian pairs skater Oksana Nagalati was banned last year for doping suspicions:

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/br...ter-positive-test-for-diuretic-239588101.html

What happened to her? Is she back in training? Or has she left the sport?

And... would it be too overbown to suggest that if she was doping, as a junior skater, then it can't just have been her, so the doping culture in Russia must include figure skaters?
 
What I worry the most about are youngsters on school teams and the like. How is it that suddenly, within a single generation, high schools all over the U.S. are producing 300-pound football players, whereas 20 years ago 200-punnds was a giant, for a sixteen-year-old kid?

There was a famous case here in Detroit about a star quarterback who was being groomed for at least a college career, if not pro. He underwent a violent personality change (as people on steroids do), assaulted a school security officer, got out of jail and the same day beat up his girl friend at school, and now is out of sports (to say the least) altogether.
 
Griffit-Joyner died at 38 - was never caught, Marione Johns was never caught while competing, great Carl Lewis and doping controversy, etc. American track-n-field is cleaner than Russian? Give me a break. Any investigation against the U.S.A., sanctions against the U.S.A.? That will never happen.

Those are individual incidents--not state or federation sponsored. The IAAF cleared the US of wrongdoing in connection with Carl Lewis. The US government, by the way, is not involved at all in the U S federation.
 
I have two very naive questions.

1. If a steroid helps someone recover from a serious injury, is there a reason why athletes shouldn't be allowed to use them?

Yes. They kill you.

2. Would growth inhibitors only be useful to female figure skaters? Would male skaters gain an advantage from them?

Yes. Their bodies, like those of girls, would be stunted for life.
 
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What I worry the most about are youngsters on school teams and the like. How is it that suddenly, within a single generation, high schools all over the U.S. are producing 300-pound football players, whereas 20 years ago 200-punnds was a giant, for a sixteen-year-old kid?

There was a famous case here in Detroit about a star quarterback who was being groomed for at least a college career, if not pro. He underwent a violent personality change (as people on steroids do), assaulted a school security officer, got out of jail and the same day beat up his girl friend at school, and now is out of sports (to say the least) altogether.

I have a friend who is around 25 now who was one of those 300 pound high school football players. In his case, how they did it was by putting him on a specific, disgusting diet where he had to eat all the time. It's possible there is something he never told me but from his stories, basically he had to eat what for some of us would be the calories for a whole meal that we'd have 3 times a day every two hours while awake, and in the middle of the night he'd have to wake up to eat again. So in his case the weight gain was 'natural' but IMO this also is extremely unhealthy, especially as they did not seem to care much about his nutrition- the majority of those meals as 'prescribed' were a peanut butter sandwich with LOTS of peanut butter, a commercial 'protein shake', and a glass of milk, plus he was encouraged to incorporate to each meal literally anything else he was able to shove down at his own discretion, as long as it was high calorie.
 
Yes. They kill you.

Yes. Their bodies, like those of girls, would be stunted for life.

Yes, thanks for this. I think something that's been ignored in this thread so far is that these drugs are not only banned because they give people an unfair advantage, though that is part of it- they are also banned because extended use of them can be extremely dangerous and have long lasting and far reaching effects long after people have ceased taking them. The benefits almost never ultimately outweigh the costs for healthy people who go down this road. Sure, as a young, healthy feeling person who just won a major medal you may in that moment feel like who cares what happens later, the benefits of this have outweighed the cost for me, but the truth is you may not feel that way later when you are still relatively young, but nowhere near as healthy feeling or even dead.
 
Somewhat off topic, I suppose, but the thing that I found most amazing about Shizu was not the fact that she got an Olympic gold medal, but the fact that she maintained her skills for many, many, many years after she retired from competitive skating, meaning that she never depended on an overly extreme training regimen or drug enhancements to be the athlete that she is. She is also now a happy mother, too, with a healthy baby. :thumbsup:

She is a great representative of the sport.

Oh yeah. And what about Oda Nobunari who was still jumping quads in shows just few months ago. There's another guy who you know for sure didn't use drugs.
 
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Those are individual incidents--not state or federation sponsored. The IAAF cleared the US of wrongdoing in connection with Carl Lewis. The US government, by the way, is not involved at all in the U S federation.

The country sponsored fed vs. non-sponsored - formally there is difference. But it happens that the U.S. track-n-field fed and individual athletes have much more private funding than the fed in Russia which has to rely on the government money. It does not mean that the government is fully aware of the details. But even if they are. For example they see Florence Griffit-Jones who was around for quite a while - her first WC was in 1983. In all the years before 1988 she only twice ran 100m faster than 11 sec: 10,99 and 10,96. Then in 1988 she is visually much more muscular. And she delivers: 10.89, 10.99, 10.60, 10.49,10.70, 10.61, 10.62, 10.88, 10.70, 10.54, 10.91 - all in 1 year! She is 29 then. Next year she retires - in 8 years she dies. She has not been caught. But with all due respect do we believe her being clean? Especially knowing that her husband - another athlete was not? And if not, who knew and what does it have to do whether it was or not on the government money? And if in Russia they see that the name of the game is not to be clean but not to be caught, the temptation is too high as sports is a lot about politics. And some do think that it is better to be an uncaught dirty winner than a clean loser.

I do not justify the doping use - I just see this particular media hysteria as a part of driven by Ukraine situation push to further isolate Russia pretending she is the only black sheep in the herd.
 
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