Russia Doping Report

[hurrah]

No. I do not agree at this point that there is any way to determine the specific likelihood that any specific individuals have doped at any specific events, other than those specifically identified in the report. There is a difference between saying that based on the totality of the evidence some skaters are probably doping and trying to name individuals and events when no concrete evidence exists. To me this difference is fundamental. Again, if you have some proof of what you assert, present it.

Well, there is the statement that '99%' of Russian athletes dope, and that doping is state-sponsored. Anyway, I don't have to prove anything to you or anyone else. I watched the German documentary. I read the news. I formed my opinion. That's all.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Who made this 99% statement and what evidence do they have to make such claims? Was it 99% of track and field atheletes or 99% of all atheletes? I'm curious as to who possesses such a vast amount of knowable things.

 

[hurrah]

Who made this 99% statement and what evidence do they have to make such claims? Was it 99% of track and field atheletes or 99% of all atheletes? I'm curious as to who possesses such a vast amount of knowable things.

Watch the German documentary yourself. Do something to educate yourself, okay? I don't have to tell you anything.

 

[TheGrandSophy]

Since you bring it up, I will say that YOU actually refers to whoever deleted a comment I made where I straightforwardly expressed my opinion that certain Russian figure skaters (and I did name names, which I will not do here, otherwise, this post will immediately get deleted again) at Sochi must have been doped, given the damning information that has come out. You, tulosi, agree with me, right, that there is a strong likelihood that they were?

And then I got all this grief from posters here about how slanderous it was to mention specific names. I thought there was hypocrisy and double standard involved in such accusations, since another poster had basically speculated that Usain Bolt might be doping right after my comment was deleted, and no one pounced on that remark as being slanderous, until I pointed this out.

Anyway, for me, I got what I wanted out of this discussion. I understand that many posters here don't want to raise this issue.

Hurrah, you very well know that someone deleting your comment will be a mod. And they are quite within their rights to delete a potentially slanderous post. The post that mentions Bolt says that the poster hopes he is clean as he is a marvel. It does not say like you are that (fill the gap) must be doping because... The fact that multiple posters have a problem with you saying that is not because we are some lily-livered cowards who want to shelter behind the status quo, as you seem to be implying, but that we want to deal in facts.

If proof is brought to bear that any athlete, from any sport, has been doping, I will be the first to condemn that. I have condemned what seems to have been proved to be a systemic problem of doping in Russia and I will continue to hope that the investigation extends to other national programmes as well as doing even more to catch individuals and the coaches and doctors who support them. I will not however support speculation with no facts nor those who peddle such. If any sports person has doped, I want that PROVED with documentation, drug tests and/or credible testimony, and then I want that person banned.

 

[hurrah]

Hurrah, you very well know that someone deleting your comment will be a mod. And they are quite within their rights to delete a potentially slanderous post. The post that mentions Bolt says that the poster hopes he is clean as he is a marvel. It does not say like you are that (fill the gap) must be doping because... The fact that multiple posters have a problem with you saying that is not because we are some lily-livered cowards who want to shelter behind the status quo, as you seem to be implying, but that we want to deal in facts. If proof is brought to bear that any athlete, from any sport, has been doping, I will be the first to condemn that. I have condemned what seems to have been proved to be a systemic problem of doping in Russia and I will continue to hope that the investigation extends to other national programmes as well as doing even more to catch individuals and the coaches and doctors who support them. I will not however support speculation with no facts nor those who peddle such. If any sports person has doped, I want that PROVED with documentation, dug tests and/or credible testimony, and then I want that person banned.

As I already mentioned, the urine or blood samples have been destroyed, so all one can do is speculate.

If there are posters here who do not want to speculate, they are within their rights.

 

[TheGrandSophy]

Who made this 99% statement and what evidence do they have to make such claims? Was it 99% of track and field atheletes or 99% of all atheletes? I'm curious as to who possesses such a vast amount of knowable things.

It is well worth watching the documentary (OS linked it up thread). It was an athlete herself who said it - I believe a Russian field athlete (shot put or discus maybe?)- so it is a speculative figure. However, it does suggest a general feeling that the athletes who were doping got from sports there. They also mentioned being in line at the doctors with people from other sports some of which were mentioned (FS not being one).

On the radio, it was mentioned that 5-6 national programmes were regarded as suspects of systemic doping. The interviewee would not say which countries though for obvious reasons.

I do think that doping is a problem in all countries (which I want dealt with). However, I do think that some countries go beyond having individual cases and have a deeper problem.

 

[MiRé]

Key Points plus 60 second video

Thank you :agree:

The fact that samples were destroyed....just proves that they doped........... :shame:

 

[Snow63]

Watch the German documentary yourself. Do something to educate yourself, okay? I don't have to tell you anything.

And that documentary based on what exactly? Is there a MATERIAL proof that doping probes of 99% of Russian athletes are positive? I don't thing there is. I hate baseless personal accusations.

 

[Mrs. P]

It is well worth watching the documentary (OS linked it up thread). It was an athlete herself who said it - I believe a Russian field athlete (shot put or discus maybe?)- so it is a speculative figure. However, it does suggest a general feeling that the athletes who were doping got from sports there. They also mentioned being in line at the doctors with people from other sports such of which were mentioned.

On the radio, it was mentioned that 5-6 national programmes were regarded as suspects of systemic doping. The interviewee would not say which countries though for obvious reasons.

I do think that doping is a problem in all countries (which I want dealt with). However, I do think that some countries go beyond having individual cases and have a deeper problem.

Has anyone seen the ProPublica/BBC investigation on doping allegations at Nike Oregon Project?
https://www.propublica.org/article/...-coach-alberto-salazar-of-breaking-drug-rules

This would arguably be an example of systematic doping if the allegations are true. But rather than a country, we're talking a multi-national training center.

And that documentary based on what exactly? Is there a MATERIAL proof that doping probes of 99% of Russian athletes are positive? I don't thing there is. I hate baseless personal accusations.

Responding mainly the "is there material proof point": The problem is that under the current system you can have someone who passes every single drug test but still be doping. Lance Armstrong was able to avoid controversy for a long time stating that nobody had concrete proof against him. The same goes for Salazar and the Nike Oregon Project people.

I haven't seen the documentary so I'm not going to comment on the 99 percent thing.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

If I get a free second I'll look at the documentary. I've just been so busy with work lately and I'm even partaking in this conversation while coordinating a rather large work event. I'm working on a Mao Asada video right now and frankly I'd rather finish that first with my free time.

Thank you so much for your response. I am curious about this situation and all the help I can get is appreciated.

One thing that scares me is thinking of the pressure these atheletes face to do this sort of thing. If this does affect figure skating and young girls are pressured or worse yet unknowingly given drugs my heart will just break for them all.

 

[Snow63]

Responding mainly the "is there material proof point": The problem is that under the current system you can have someone who passes every single drug test but still be doping. Lance Armstrong was able to avoid controversy for a long time stating that nobody had concrete proof against him. The same goes for Salazar and the Nike Oregon Project people.

I haven't seen the documentary so I'm not going to comment on the 99 percent thing.

Yes, but unfortunately it's the only proof available for now. Someone's words are not a proof unless that person speaks about himself/herself only, it's just words.

 

[TheGrandSophy]

And that documentary based on what exactly? Is there a MATERIAL proof that doping probes of 99% of Russian athletes are positive? I don't thing there is. I hate baseless personal accusations.

I do think the 99% is not something to bandy about as, like I said up thread, it was an athlete making supposition from her own experiences in sport. However, it does suggest a serious problem if that was that athetes's 'feeling'.

However, the more serious allegations of a 'system' of cheating backed up by officials, doctors, Head coaches etc. did have material evidence in the documentary- taped conversations, videoed meetings, sworn testimony, blood profiles, emails etc.

 

[Snow63]

I do think the 99% is not something to bandy about as, like I said up thread, it was an athlete making supposition from her own experiences in sport. However, it does suggest a serious problem if that was that athetes's 'feeling'.

However, the more serious allegations of a 'system' of cheating backed up by officials, doctors, Head coaches etc. did have material evidence in the documentary- taped conversations, videoed meetings, sworn testimony, blood profiles, emails etc.

And still, where are the names? If they have all the proofs? Everything is so blurred. That Moscow laboratory was not the only one where Russian athletes (a lot of them) were tested. Where are the names?

 

[TheGrandSophy]

And still, where are the names? If they have all the proofs? Everything is so blurred. That Moscow laboratory was not the only one where Russian athletes (a lot of them) were tested. Where are the names?

I'm sorry I'm not quite understanding what you mean and don't want to reply until I understand what you are asking.

 

[Snow63]

I'm sorry I'm not quite understanding what you mean and don't want to reply until I understand what you are asking.

I mean the names of doped athletes, and also officials, doctors, Head coaches etc. If there is material evidence why the names still were not published by WADA? And I think Moscow laboratory was not the only laboratory where Russians athletes were tested, so does it mean their probes from other laboratories are positive too? Then why no doped athletes names were published, except track and field and couple biathletes and swimmers? If the problem is that big, it is logical to assume there should be more proved individual cases from different laboratories all around the world. Or they're negative?
I'm not saying there is no doping in Russia, I just think there is much more clean athletes than doped ones. That's all I have to say about this matter.

 

[tulosai]

I mean the names of doped athletes, and also officials, doctors, Head coaches etc. If there is material evidence why the names still were not published by WADA? And I think Moscow laboratory was not the only laboratory where Russians athletes were tested, so does it mean their probes from other laboratories are positive too? Then why no doped athletes names were published, except track and field and couple biathletes and swimmers? Or they're negative?
I'm not saying there is no doping in Russia, I just think there is much more clean athletes than doped ones. That's all I have to say about this matter.

I really do encourage you to watch the documentary, where head coaches and officials are indeed named and in fact filmed engaging in some disgusting behaviors. It is unfortunately obvious that many head coaches and officials are indeed involved, both in the supply of the drugs and in covering up positive tests through a variety of methods.

 

[TheGrandSophy]

The report introduces itself by outlining its terms of reference and aims:

On 03 December 2014, the German television channel ARD aired the documentary “Top Secret Doping: How Russia makes its Winners”,1 alleging the existence of a sophisticated and well established system of state-sponsored doping within the All- Russia Athletics Federation (ARAF), the governing body for the sport of athletics in Russia, recognized as such by the responsible international federation (IF), the International Association of Athletics Federations (IAAF).
Implicated in the documentary were Russian athletes, coaches, national and international sport federations, the Russian Anti-Doping Agency (RUSADA) and the Moscow WADA-accredited laboratory. Witness statements and other evidence allegedly exposed high levels of collusion among athletes, coaches, doctors, regulatory officials, and sports agencies to systematically provide Russian athletes performance enhancing drugs (PEDs)2 in order to achieve the state’s main goal, as alleged in the ARD documentary: producing winners.The response by WADA following these explosive allegations was immediate. WADA, whose mission is to promote and coordinate the fight against doping in sport internationally, moved quickly to form an Independent Commission (IC)
“to conduct an independent investigation into doping practices; corrupt practices around sample collection and results management; and, other ineffective administration of anti-doping processes that implicate Russia, the International Association of Athletics Federations (IAAF), athletes, coaches, trainers, doctors and other members of athletes’ entourages; as well as, the accredited laboratory based in Moscow and the Russian Anti-Doping Agency (RUSADA)” (Independent Commission Terms of Reference).3
This Executive Summary sets out background on WADA, the creation and charge of the IC, a brief account of the methodology used, sets out the IC’s key investigative findings in respect of the allegations of a widespread and extensive state sanctioned doping system, and includes a summary of recommendations based on the IC’s investigative findings.

So the focus is athletics and the specific claims of the documentary.

The first page asserts that the report is in 'partial fulfilment of the mandate of the independent commission and that there will be another report about the IAAF itself (they need to wit for criminal investigations to be concluded, I expect) and the extended mandate of the commission. So more will be to come.

However, in the report, there are lots of names in athletics including:

There was collusion between the President of ARAF and the laboratory Director Rodchenkov to conceal positive drug tests by swapping clean samples for known dirty “A” samples at the Moscow lab. Athletes paid both the President and the Director for the benefit of such services.
43. [Chapter 13] At least one elite world marathoner paid her coach, Melinkov and the medical director of ARAF, Portugalov, annual sums of money, a portion of those monies being to protect her from receiving a positive drug result from her doping activities.
44. [Chapter 13] Interviews with athletes and secret recordings led to the finding that within Athletics, (which is the only sport that the IC was mandated to investigate) there were a series of high-level individuals involved, who, for monetary payments, conspired to conceal positive doping samples, leading to the conclusion that there was likely a system in Russia for cover-ups in doping.
45. [Chapter 14] It is not credible to believe that the existence and capabilities of the second laboratory were unknown to ARAF and RUSADA.
46. [Chapter 15] The Deputy Director General of the Russian Federal Research Center of Physical Culture and Sports (VNIIFK), Dr. Sergey Portugalov, who is also the Chief of the ARAF’s medical commission, provided banned substances to Russian athletes and was very active in the conspiracy to cover-up athletes’ positive tests in exchange for a percentage of their winnings.

 

[peg]

One thing that scares me is thinking of the pressure these atheletes face to do this sort of thing. If this does affect figure skating and young girls are pressured or worse yet unknowingly given drugs my heart will just break for them all.

Yeah, I worry about that as well. But not just in figure skating. In any sport where it is possible to be at the top level in one's teens or even in early adulthood, there would be tremendous pressure to dope starting at younger ages.

 

[TMC]

There was a big doping scandal in my country a while back, where several athletes got caught and in the subsequent investigation it transpired that the sport's federation heads and team doctors were all in on it. I don't believe any government representatives knew about it, but it's not impossible either. Medals were lost and the federation almost went bankrupt due to their sponsors dumping them. Put me off that sport forever, really. I may turn on the tv and see my countryman in the lead in some big competition and my first instinct is not "yay, way to go!", it's "eh, s/he's probably doping".

It's so sad for many reasons. All this happened 15 or so years ago, and if the federation & athletes learned their lesson, then that athlete competing today probably isn't doping. That athlete is probably someone who was all of ten years of age when all this went down. Not only did they lose when they were training in juniors because the federation messed up and lost all that cash that otherwise would've helped the kid in their chosen sport, the sport itself lost a lot of its prestige & reputation. Poor kid.

It's hard for me to wrap my head around it. How can a person look at a medal and be proud, knowing that that medal was dishonestly won?

Anyways, I read the WADA report, and there are plenty of names to be found in it. I don't think I want to watch the documentary right after, I already feel too depressed & disappointed.

 

[solani]

I cannot agree with that based on the following info:

The Washington Post, citing unidentified sources with knowledge of drug results from the USA Track and Field Championships in Indianapolis, IN, reported that on June 23, 2006, an "A" sample of Marion Jones' urine tested positive for Erythropoietin (EPO), a banned performance enhancer. Jones withdrew from the Weltklasse Golden League meet in Switzerland, citing "personal reasons", and once more denied using performance-enhancing drugs. She retained lawyer Howard Jacobs, who has represented many athletes in doping cases, including Tim Montgomery and cyclist Floyd Landis. On September 6, 2006, Jones' lawyers announced that her "B" sample had tested negative, which cleared her from the doping allegations. On October 5, 2007, Jones admitted to lying to federal agents under oath about her use of steroids prior to the 2000 Summer Olympics.

I guess she just cracked under the pressure without being actually caught. Others keep denying. I just hope that Bolt is clean: he is such a phenomenon.

Why don't you agree? Out of principal? Because yes, of course she cracked under the pressure after denying the accusations for years. She already knew that she would very likely go to jail when she finally told the truth and even then she only told half of it. She already had little children at that point in time and probably didn't want to be seperated from them. But they still sent her to jail, because she lied to federal agents.
Kelli White, another U.S. sprinter for example revealed everything after being caught with modafinil (a wakefulness-promoting agent, a rather minor offense compared to f.e. steroids. She would have been banned for 2 years, maybe 4 years if she had had bad luck). But she told immediatly that she used EPO, steroids and insulin also and was stripped of all her medals because of it. She later said that she "wanted her own truth again". Reading her interviews is very interesting, because she explains what the PED's did to her body and to her mind and how she felt different, stronger, like she was in another person's body. She was the 2003 100m & 200m world champion.