Russia Doping Report

[hurrah]

I'm just going to put this here:

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...term-health-risks-of-drug-abuse-a6730941.html

Has doping already claimed the lives of figure skaters already?

 

[el henry]

I'm just going to put this here:

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...term-health-risks-of-drug-abuse-a6730941.html

Has doping already claimed the lives of figure skaters already?

Since we have no evidence that figure skaters have been doping, that would be quite a presumption.

The East German situation has been known for some years now, including the horrific effects of doping and steroids on some of their female track and field and swimming athletes. That is why I shudder when I think of the female Russian track and field competitors for whom there is evidence of doping, and wonder about their future health. I don't need to speculate about those for whom there is no evidence.

On another note, I shake my head at those who say "well, everyone else is doing it, we had to do it to remain competitive." Huh? If you aren't getting from sports a sense of pride in your own skills and ethics that you did your best, without drugs, then you are in it for the wrong reasons. As my mother would say, "if everyone else jumped off the Brooklyn Bridge, would you jump off too?"

 

[hurrah]

This is from the WADA Report:

The IC wants to make it clear that Russia is not the only country with an ineffective anti-doping program and that Athletics is not the only sport with an ineffective antidoping program, but Russia and athletics were the subject of the Terms of Reference of the IC. In the circumstances, while the IC expresses no concluded opinion as to other sports in Russia, there is no reason to believe that Athletics is the only sport in Russia to have been affected by the identified systemic failures.While written evidence of government involvement has not been produced, it would be naïve in the extreme to conclude that activities on the scale discovered could have occurred without the explicit or tacit approval of Russian governmental authorities.

(p. 60)

So I do not consider it 'quite a presumption' but find those who do not presume that this probably includes figure skaters to be extremely naive, or obtuse, or a stakeholder in the sport.

 

[hurrah]

And so I question why there is a figure skating foum which allows for ad nauseum discussions about 'cheated' jumps and extreme denouncement of a figure skater who did not cheat herself but lied for a boyfriend who cheated, but seems to censure a full discussion of whether or not there are figure skaters who themselves actually cheat.

I am of the opinion that figure skaters who dope themselves do so under circumstances where they are made to feel like they have no choice. It is, however, important to note that they do, in theory, have the choice not to cheat, and some probably have taken that path. One can refuse to cheat and find a life elsewhere outside of figure skating. And so while I do find them to be victims, they also are abettors.

I also think that if we don't discuss this further, more openly, we are abettors. These drugs apparently have serious health consequences, so the skaters who win by cheating get that moment of glory for themselves, but they also pay the highest price, with their health and life. So I think it is important to address the question, have there already been figure skaters whose lives were cut short due to doping?

And I have to question the culture of this forum which doesn't bat an eye at derogatory comments about 'cheated' take-offs and 'cheated' landings and celebrates fully-rotated jumps and doesn't allow such feats to be questioned as perhaps the result of cheating.

 

[dorispulaski]

When there is no proof that a specific person has done something wrong, it is not right to pillory them in the public press.

And if decency did not already restrain us from making libellous statements, the law would do so.

If a person accuses someone of something criminal they didn't do in print, they may be charged with slander or libel, and be sued and pay huge sums of cash or even do jail time if the libel is in a country where libel is a criminal offense.
http://kellywarnerlaw.com/russia-defamation-laws/

For that matter, try libelling someone who is guilty of something they did do, but you can't prove they did it. That often does not go well either.
http://www.tofugu.com/2015/02/20/dont-get-sued-libel-slander-defamation-laws-japan/

or this:
http://www.theguardian.com/media/greenslade/2009/may/26/daily-mirror-medialaw

Slander and libel are not a good idea.

 

[Interspectator]

For example, we can discuss the possibility of PED being used in Figure Skating but accusing a person or federation of actually using it without proof is libelous.

 

[peg]

On another note, I shake my head at those who say "well, everyone else is doing it, we had to do it to remain competitive." Huh? If you aren't getting from sports a sense of pride in your own skills and ethics that you did your best, without drugs, then you are in it for the wrong reasons. As my mother would say, "if everyone else jumped off the Brooklyn Bridge, would you jump off too?"

I think it's also important to recognize that people may seek success in sports for different reasons in different cultures. Although in North America you need to come from a family with a pretty decent standard of living to be able to afford skating and many other sports, in places like Russia, success in sports allows kids from relatively poor families to help improve the standard of living for their entire family. For example, I remember reading that part of Adelina's motivation in the Olympics was to be able to afford surgery for her sister who was born with some sort of health condition (I'm sorry I can't remember the name of it.) So it's not just about pushing themselves and taking pride in their skills and accomplishments but more about earning a living for their families.

For me, the systemic level of doping that has been identified in this report also reduces the level of choice that individual athletes have. If their coaches are essentially pushing it, or it's even a condition of them continuing to train and compete, it makes it extremely difficult for kids and young adults to withstand that kind of pressure. In some cases, it's not a choice between winning while cheating vs. not winning but having personal pride, but rather a choice between doping vs. not competing at al (i.e. not helping support your family.) It's easy for us to say from a distance "They should have just said no, even if there was pressure from the coaches or their federation." But if your whole family is relying on your success, and there's pressures from various external people in positions of authority, I just can't bring myself to blame the athletes themselves that much. I see them as victims as much as anything else. The athletes are the ones I feel most sorry for.

 

[hurrah]

For example, we can discuss the possibility of PED being used in Figure Skating but accusing a person or federation of actually using it without proof is libelous.

So the German documentary and WADA report isn't proof enough to talk about the possibility that Russian figure skaters are doping? (It seems more libeous to speculate whether figure skaters from other nations/cultures are also doping, since there is even less proof on that.)

If you answer no, I will simply bring up the quotes from WADA report which I have already quoted, so if you want to argue no, then you need to tell me why the validity of what the WADA reports needs to be questioned.

 

[dorispulaski]

No. what you can't do is accuse any specific person of doping, if there is no proof that specific person doped

Let's say John Smith is a skater, and Jane Doe is a doping track star

If there is a statement in a report about Doe's doping that John Smith doped, you could cite the page in the report and say that John Smith is a doper.

However, if Jane Doe says many people dope, that is not proof that John Smith dopes, if Doe does not mention Smith by name.

Furthermore, if Doe is a track star and says she knows people from some other sports dope, too, you don't even have proof that Doe saw even one skater doping, let alone John Smith.

So if you make a statement that John Smith is a doper in that case, you have committed libel.

 

[hurrah]

No. what you can't do is accuse any specific person of doping, if there is no proof that specific person doped

Let's say John Smith is a skater, and Jane Doe is a doping track star

If there is a statement in a report about Doe's doping that John Smith doped, you could cite the page in the report and say that John Smith is a doper.

However, if Jane Doe says many people dope, that is not proof that John Smith dopes, if Doe does not mention Smith by name.

Furthermore, if Doe is a track star and says she knows people from some other sports dope, too, you don't even have proof that Doe saw even one skater doping, let alone John Smith.

So if you make a statement that John Smith is a doper in that case, you have committed libel.

Have I been mentioning specific names here? The WADA report was about state-sponsored doping in Russia. I have only been saying Russia, though, of course, that then does lead to specific names, which I have refrained from mentioning, and I won't.

Anyway, in the greater scheme of things, the specific names aren't important. They happened to have been the ones picked, and the ones who went along with the system. It could have been anyone, which is how the Russian system treats its athletes, which it not to say that there aren't other systems which are as harsh, but since the WADA report only substantially talks about Russia, maybe it would be libeous for me to talk about other nations/cultures, according to the logic that has been presented to me.

 

[dorispulaski]

You can say there is doping in another country, provided you cite reports of doping in that country. You can say there is some doping in the US, for example, by citing the NY Times article listing the number of USA athletes caught doping. You could point to Armstrong and Jones, for example, whose cases are well-documented, and cite the source.

 

[hurrah]

You can say there is doping in another country, provided you cite reports of doping in that country. You can say there is some doping in the US, for example, by citing the NY Times article listing the number of USA athletes caught doping. You could point to Armstrong and Jones, for example, whose cases are well-documented, and cite the source.

Okay. I'm comfortable with that.

So given the disclosures of the German documentary and WADA report, and given the great strength of circumstantial evidence presented, as well as Putin publicly admitting that doping is a Russian problem, I am going to assume that Russian figure skaters are doped, and have been for quite a while.

So that established, I wonder, have there been any Russian figure skaters whose lives were cut short, by like maybe like 20-30 years, due to heart attack and such, because they experienced side-effects of doping, or are not dead yet but are experiencing poor health in their middle ages? And are the current crop of Russian figure skaters going to experience health difficulties as they get older sooner rather than later, and die sooner rather than later?

And should we find out that it affected their mortality, as fans of the sport, should we feel differently about our celebration of the medals that they won through their sacrifices?

 

[hurrah]

Putin calls for individuals to bear responsibility in doping scandal
http://www.euronews.com/2015/11/12/...als-to-bear-responsibility-in-doping-scandal/

‘‘Responsibility should be personalised, it is a general rule that the responsibility always should be personalised."

I think that's Russian for 'We will find suitable scapegoats to blame everything on, so that I can remain in power and cheating can resume in due time.'

 

[solani]

I'm just going to put this here:

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...term-health-risks-of-drug-abuse-a6730941.html

Has doping already claimed the lives of figure skaters already?

No, not that I heard of. But we know of a few that suffer from after-effects.

Since we have no evidence that figure skaters have been doping, that would be quite a presumption.

We have evidence that figure skaters were doping in East Germany.

So given the disclosures of the German documentary and WADA report, and given the great strength of circumstantial evidence presented, as well as Putin publicly admitting that doping is a Russian problem, I am going to assume that Russian figure skaters are doped, and have been for quite a while.

So that established, I wonder, have there been any Russian figure skaters whose lives were cut short, by like maybe like 20-30 years, due to heart attack and such, because they experienced side-effects of doping, or are not dead yet but are experiencing poor health in their middle ages? And are the current crop of Russian figure skaters going to experience health difficulties as they get older sooner rather than later, and die sooner rather than later?

And should we find out that it affected their mortality, as fans of the sport, should we feel differently about our celebration of the medals that they won through their sacrifices?

I think we cannot assume that russian skaters were using PED's. I think we can assume that probably a few skaters used PED's, because obviously the system in Russia allowed it to get PED's quite easily, physicians were available to make it comparatively safe and because of those shadow doping laboratories it maybe was very tempting, because the chances of getting caught were really minor. (You shouldn't forget that the use of PED's in fitness centers across the globe is a huge problem and many people who used it already suffer from extreme after-effects. )
But to me it sounds like the decision to use PED's was the decision from the athletes themselves in the last consequence in Russia (practically the decision to have a career in sports in Russia or not).
We don't know yet whether minors were made to use PED's in Russia. And that would be the responsibility of the athlete's guardians and coaches.
A couple of years ago a crazy track and fields coach (I forgot his name) in Germany was trying to give his best female athletes steroids disguised as vitamins. One of them (about 18 years old at that time) was suspicious and gave the pills to her parents and they had them tested. That was also the system in East Germany: not to tell the athletes (at least the minors) what they actually were doing. The East German swimmers tought that they were clean and that the U.S. swimmers were using PED's. We can assume that both were using PED's, but the difference was that East Germany had a state sanctioned doping plan.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Finally got a chance to see the documentary. I really didn't like that Yulia's husband was working for RUSDA while she was competing. How is that not a red flag to WADA and IAAF? I mean...isn't that a bit obvious to anyone over there. I guess they say they sent a letter to IAAF about their experiences but they kept on doing things as usual it would seem and the timing of the letter isn't revealed IRRC. Vitaley's character and the oversight agencie's integrity seem to be in question for me. He was not only working for the anti-doping agency but he was actually even supplying and partaking in his wife's doping at the same time. I would imagine that he was well aware of the life threatening affects of such drugs considering his profession. That's a huge moral dilemma for a person and he choose to help her get away with it. So should he be trusted now after clearly showing terrible judgement in the past?

I'm trying to stop short of discrediting the guy but I think more importantly it reveals the nature of the way people conduct themselves in this community. He was clearly acting as a double agent living in two worlds. How many athletes did he help to suspend or catch cheating while knowing his wife was doing the same thing and he was helping. How common is this not only within Russian sports but within the IAAF? WADA? How many of them are receiving hush money and profiting at the athletes expense? The possibilities seem endless to me.

It's my conclusion that this goes all the way to the top of not only the Russian Sports Federation but almost certainly to WADA and the IAAF. So even though Russia is probably the easiest target because of being a more centralized program with disgruntled whistle blowers.....the problem is one that is far greater than Russia's role in it but the governing bodies of these sports and the oversight agencies that seem unable to do their job.

I truly hope Yulia and Vitaliy can move forward with their lives and be healthy and safe. Very heartbreaking story. I can't imagine how difficult it is for them to sever their ties to their homeland.

 

[hurrah]

A couple of years ago a crazy track and fields coach (I forgot his name) in Germany was trying to give his best female athletes steroids disguised as vitamins. One of them (about 18 years old at that time) was suspicious and gave the pills to her parents and they had them tested. That was also the system in East Germany: not to tell the athletes (at least the minors) what they actually were doing. The East German swimmers tought that they were clean and that the U.S. swimmers were using PED's. We can assume that both were using PED's, but the difference was that East Germany had a state sanctioned doping plan.

Did the doping culture of East Germany disappear when the Berlin Wall came down? (E.T.A. Thank you for your honesty.)

So, I found out that Yuri Larionov (2008) and Oksana Nagaleti (2014) have been caught doping.

I wonder if there have been figure skaters from other countries who have been caught?

 

[[email protected]]

Why don't you agree? Out of principal?

No, but because both you and I are just guessing. My guess is based on the fact that she was never caught - she was cleared by court in 2006. And there are no proofs that there would be yet another investigation - at least not that I know. Then my guess is that she was just tired to be constantly on the spotlight and constantly lie. That's why she cracked. Other athletes who dope and don't have such scrutiny keep denying. Your guess is that she revealed herself because she would be caught anyway. Any proofs to that?

 

[solani]

So did the doping culture of East Germany disappear when the Berlin Wall came down?

Not exactly. But many coaches from East Germany got jobs in the united country and in other countries, they were rather popular and some still are. Also the sport physicians, which is troubling .. for example Bernd Pansold (he's a famous sports physician, works for Red Bull and its athletes including f.e. Lindsey Vonn. He also worked with Hermann Maier and the Austrian Ski Team before he worked for Red Bull. (I want to mention that I'm not making assumptions here, this are facts that can be easily proofed) started his career in East Germany, he worked with the swimmers ... and he was convicted for doping minors.

 

[solani]

No, but because both you and I are just guessing. My guess is based on the fact that she was never caught - she was cleared by court in 2006. And there are no proofs that there would be yet another investigation - at least not that I know. Then my guess is that she was just tired to be constantly on the spotlight and constantly lie. That's why she cracked. Other athletes who dope and don't have such scrutiny keep denying. Your guess is that she revealed herself because she would be caught anyway. Any proofs to that?

I'm not guessing. She was caught, not by a doping test but because of overwhelming evidence against her! Even her ex husband C.J. Hunter testified that she was using PED's. Her punishment would have been harsher if she hadn't revealed part of the truth in the end.

 

[hurrah]

Bernd Pansold (he's a famous sports physician, works for Red Bull and its athletes including f.e. Lindsey Vonn.