- Joined
- Jul 27, 2003
moyesii said:
Uh... uh... I don't think I get it... I'm too .... What was I thinking? Oh, well, it will come back to me.
http://www.webpersonal.net/fym/simpson/simpson21.gif
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Sandhu The New Gpf Champ Of 2003!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
- Thread starter shine
- Start date
Uh... uh... I don't think I get it... I'm too .... What was I thinking? Oh, well, it will come back to me.
http://www.webpersonal.net/fym/simpson/simpson21.gif
YEAHHHHHHH EMAN!!!!!!!!!!!!! 
Beating Weiss...I love Mikey, but not a great big deal. Van Der Perren is still a few jumps shy of a champ. Gao, don't know too much about. But beating PLUSHY???? Way to go, Eman!!!! SOOOOOO glad he could finally hold it together for a full competition!!!!
Kasey
Beating Weiss...I love Mikey, but not a great big deal. Van Der Perren is still a few jumps shy of a champ. Gao, don't know too much about. But beating PLUSHY???? Way to go, Eman!!!! SOOOOOO glad he could finally hold it together for a full competition!!!!
Kasey
- Joined
- Nov 12, 2003
OH MY GOD!!!!!!!!
I am so happy for Emanuel ... he is such a great guy, and he deserves some success after all this time ... soooo glad he finally kept his nerves under wraps.
And, boy, am I glad that I will be in Dortmund for the World Championships in March ... can't wait to see Emanuel ... I met him at Lalique two years ago, and he's just the nicest guy.
Vanessa
P.S.: If you like Emanuel then you should visit the website I have made about him ... it is the best one out there ... www.geocities.com/liliana_evenstar/ !!!
I am so happy for Emanuel ... he is such a great guy, and he deserves some success after all this time ... soooo glad he finally kept his nerves under wraps.
And, boy, am I glad that I will be in Dortmund for the World Championships in March ... can't wait to see Emanuel ... I met him at Lalique two years ago, and he's just the nicest guy.
Vanessa
P.S.: If you like Emanuel then you should visit the website I have made about him ... it is the best one out there ... www.geocities.com/liliana_evenstar/ !!!
C
Cactus
Guest
There are several shockers inherent in this news:
1) Sandhu pulls off two skates, back to back, without costly mistakes, in a pressure-filled competition. He's always had the potential, the ability, just not the consistency. Will this signal a new era of the stable Sandhu?
2) All season long, Plushenko has been far less consistent due to his injury. So far though, that inconsistency has not deterred him from winning everything in sight. Now it very well may have. Yes, he lost primarily because he forgot one part of the new COP rules. But had he landed that quad in the SP, he'd have been untouchable. I hope Plushenko realizes his consistency is one of his major weapons, besides his jumping talent and flair, and give his injury a chance to heal.
3) Major COP controversy! Expect lots of complaining from some of the anti-ISU crowd, and expect the ISU to ignore them completely. Hopefully, the anti-ISU people will focus on the real fault here: The hasty implementation of the COP resulting in Plushenko's ignorance of a major rule, instead of the rule itself.
1) Sandhu pulls off two skates, back to back, without costly mistakes, in a pressure-filled competition. He's always had the potential, the ability, just not the consistency. Will this signal a new era of the stable Sandhu?
2) All season long, Plushenko has been far less consistent due to his injury. So far though, that inconsistency has not deterred him from winning everything in sight. Now it very well may have. Yes, he lost primarily because he forgot one part of the new COP rules. But had he landed that quad in the SP, he'd have been untouchable. I hope Plushenko realizes his consistency is one of his major weapons, besides his jumping talent and flair, and give his injury a chance to heal.
3) Major COP controversy! Expect lots of complaining from some of the anti-ISU crowd, and expect the ISU to ignore them completely. Hopefully, the anti-ISU people will focus on the real fault here: The hasty implementation of the COP resulting in Plushenko's ignorance of a major rule, instead of the rule itself.
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
CONGRATULATIONS SHINE!!!
You stood by him when all others gave up on him.
I'm happy for Sandhu. There's no one who can quad more successfully than Evgeni. He is outstanding but imo, Emmanuel is the better skater, certainly by far in Presentation.
Now, both Buttle and Sandhu are making waves. Oh, Canada!
Joe
You stood by him when all others gave up on him.
I'm happy for Sandhu. There's no one who can quad more successfully than Evgeni. He is outstanding but imo, Emmanuel is the better skater, certainly by far in Presentation.
Now, both Buttle and Sandhu are making waves. Oh, Canada!
Joe
combo rules
I think some people are getting confused here.
Skaters were never allowed to do three combination jumps in a program, under the old system or the CoP. I just don't think that the judges inforced it that well before, or that they could hide the deduction by increasing the score for other reasons to balance it out.
Skaters are permitted to perform 3 combinations and/or series in a program. (that is 2 combinations and 1 series, or 1 combination and 2 series). So i guess if Plushenko had turned that last combo into a series he would have been fine.
I mean these are the same rules that are followed at the preliminary level so that kids don't just go out there with a pile of lutz/loop/toeloop's.
The Zayak rule just means you can't repeat the same triple or quad without it being in a series or combination. So, i guess there would be a possibility of performing the same jump in a combination, a series and by itself. Few if anyone does this because it is hard enough to fit the variety of jumps into 4min30sec along with spins and footwork.
I think some people are getting confused here.
Skaters were never allowed to do three combination jumps in a program, under the old system or the CoP. I just don't think that the judges inforced it that well before, or that they could hide the deduction by increasing the score for other reasons to balance it out.
Skaters are permitted to perform 3 combinations and/or series in a program. (that is 2 combinations and 1 series, or 1 combination and 2 series). So i guess if Plushenko had turned that last combo into a series he would have been fine.
I mean these are the same rules that are followed at the preliminary level so that kids don't just go out there with a pile of lutz/loop/toeloop's.
The Zayak rule just means you can't repeat the same triple or quad without it being in a series or combination. So, i guess there would be a possibility of performing the same jump in a combination, a series and by itself. Few if anyone does this because it is hard enough to fit the variety of jumps into 4min30sec along with spins and footwork.
Colour me utterly shocked! I cannot wait to see this, controversy and all. I am thrilled for Sandhu - I have been a fan for years but I had virtually given up him ever being able to put it together and win a major competition, but it looks like all that's out the window. Canadian nationals is going to be a dogfight between him - with all his new confidence - and Buttle who has performed so well all season. Whew! If there was one thing I thought was a surety it was that Plushenko would walk away with the gold here....
I understand that the rules cost him but still shouldn't he have won...
or did random selection sort of factor in here?. Perhaps, his score for the extra combo was not counted by the computer.
Re: Colorado Spring, Pronvice, Canada.
It may very well be in Canada because most canadian skaters have made breakthrough in this city.
Re: COP invented in Canada thus why Sadhu won.
well, Sandhu was an alternate then Tim withdrew and SC decided to send him at the last minute. He arrived in CS a day or two before the event and skated as though High Altitude does not matter. This alone tell me he was on the way to win this event with or without SC's help.
or did random selection sort of factor in here?. Perhaps, his score for the extra combo was not counted by the computer.
Re: Colorado Spring, Pronvice, Canada.
It may very well be in Canada because most canadian skaters have made breakthrough in this city.
Re: COP invented in Canada thus why Sadhu won.
well, Sandhu was an alternate then Tim withdrew and SC decided to send him at the last minute. He arrived in CS a day or two before the event and skated as though High Altitude does not matter. This alone tell me he was on the way to win this event with or without SC's help.
I never heard of COP being made in canada?? I thought it was a bunch of people from different countries that made it? You american's must be pretty smart, you guys don't even know where Colorado Springs are??? It's in your own country!
I'm glad Plushy got nailed for the 3rd combo, it's about time they started doing that. I'm a skater myself and I've been to competitions where a skater did like 4 combo's and they would win. Which is unfair, but this new program actually nails you for breaking rules and people are complaining????
We wanted a new system, and wether we like it or not, it is better then the old 6.0 way, now we know that everything is being accounted for. There will always be people complaining just because their favorite skater didn't win.
I'm glad Plushy didn't win here not only because I don't like his style of skating but because he broke a rule and for once in a skating event I saw this rule take into effect.
God forbid ISU's new program actually follows the rules!
I'm glad Plushy got nailed for the 3rd combo, it's about time they started doing that. I'm a skater myself and I've been to competitions where a skater did like 4 combo's and they would win. Which is unfair, but this new program actually nails you for breaking rules and people are complaining????
We wanted a new system, and wether we like it or not, it is better then the old 6.0 way, now we know that everything is being accounted for. There will always be people complaining just because their favorite skater didn't win.
I'm glad Plushy didn't win here not only because I don't like his style of skating but because he broke a rule and for once in a skating event I saw this rule take into effect.
God forbid ISU's new program actually follows the rules!
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2003
Hockeyfan, I researched this at the time. Getting credit for the combo does NOT mean she even attempted it. Here is an exerpt from the rules:hockeyfan228 said:
Only two jumps with 3 or more revolutions can be repeated in the Free Program and they must be in either a jump combination or in a jump sequence. A repeated triple or quadruple solo jump, not included into a jump combination or jump sequence, will be considered as a part of a not successfully executed jump combination and counted as a jump combination with only one jump executed. If two jump combinations or jump sequences ( in total ) have already been executed, the repeated solo jump will be treated as an additional element and therefore not considered.
So, counter intuitive as it is, Sasha got "credit" for combo absolutely legitimately. Indeed, her base score for it was 6.1, which is a base score for lutz ONLY.
Actually, I just looked it up. Under CoP rules, they are allowed to do a TOTAL OF 2 COMBOS AND/OR SEQUENCES. Only one combo or sequence can have three jumjps. So, had they counter Plushy's 3A+2T as a sequence, it would not have helped.icestar said:
Now, getting back to whether Plushy should have been penalized so heavily. I agree that he should NOT have gotten credit for the combo. However, I think it would have been fair to give him credit for 3A (and just ignore the rest of the combo). Then, just give him a deduction on choreography, since it wasn't a "well-rounded" program. Though, as I have already mentioned, I consider this NOT an inherent flow of CoP, but something that should be "tweaked". I mean, as Sasha's examle at SC demonstrates, CoP program is complex enough to allow this sort of stuff. I dearly hope that the program is "tweaked" to avoid things like this in the future.
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- Joined
- Jul 27, 2003
Joe! I believe all the Emaniacs had an amazing night last night. We've been waiting for years for him to finally put it together and wins the big one like we know he's capable of. And last night, it was indeed a dream come true! 
I agree that if this were judged under the old system, Plushenko probably would have beat Sandhu by quite a margin based on the jumps he landed. And I know I'm biased, but I just can't help but be glad that the CoP is strictly penalizing the 3rd combo. Afterall, why should skaters feel like their marks would rise infinitely high if they could just throw in some random combo? Does a well balanced program not matter at all? This rule could send a message to skaters (in similar situation as Plushenko) that perhaps they should be thinking about doing othe tweakings to their program instead of throwing in another combo to boost their marks, because it simply doesn't work. Who said that jumps had to be the "end-all-be-all" of figure skating, and why shouldn't the other elements of skating be rewarded equally when done well? I think CoP is taking skating into the right direction. And now it's up to the judges to make it completely work by judging accordingly.
I agree that if this were judged under the old system, Plushenko probably would have beat Sandhu by quite a margin based on the jumps he landed. And I know I'm biased, but I just can't help but be glad that the CoP is strictly penalizing the 3rd combo. Afterall, why should skaters feel like their marks would rise infinitely high if they could just throw in some random combo? Does a well balanced program not matter at all? This rule could send a message to skaters (in similar situation as Plushenko) that perhaps they should be thinking about doing othe tweakings to their program instead of throwing in another combo to boost their marks, because it simply doesn't work. Who said that jumps had to be the "end-all-be-all" of figure skating, and why shouldn't the other elements of skating be rewarded equally when done well? I think CoP is taking skating into the right direction. And now it's up to the judges to make it completely work by judging accordingly.
- Joined
- Jul 27, 2003
Piel said:Well, I had an excuse I skipped geography. But Rgal is a realtor...you would think she would know
Rgal, should we tell him?
Clueless in WV,
Piel
Hey, I just know how to get around in San Diego. Knowing the geography of Colorado was NOT a requirement to obtain my CA real estate license.
But, well, heck, okay. If you insist...
Piel and I were just KIDDING AROUND! Of course we know that Colorado Springs, Colorado is not in Canada! DUH!
All COP controversy aside, YAY for E-Man! Way to freakin' go! Since I've learned to become very skeptical of the way reports say a skater did at an event, so I'll wait to see it to comment on any of that. Canada must be rockin' and deservedly so. As Dick Button said and ITA, Sandhu has an amazing dance quality to his skating, the likes of which we haven't seen since Paul Wylie and Kurt Browning. I LOVE is eight twizzles in a row in his FW sequence (just have been wanting to say that for a while) and overall, the way he moves is so exciting to me. And where I see the irony is that Sandhu wasn't even going to be there, lol.
As for Plush, I said this about Sasha and Shizuka too, but I think the IFSC occurring a week before the GPF was poor scheduling on the part of the ISU. Put the cheezefest AFTER the GPF, not a week before. Also, meniscal tears (Plush's knee injury) get worse as time goes on. They usuallydon't hurt much or affect athletes early on after the injury, but as time goes on the pain increases and the ability of the muscles to compensate for the instability caused by the meniscal tear decreases. So between the stress put on his knee by the IFSC a week before and the time issue in general no doubt hurt Plush and that injury is only going to affect him more as he goes through Russian Nats, Europeans, and Worlds. I wouldn't be surprised if he drops out of Euros and gets a bye (sp?) to Worlds. Even with that, we'll only know if his decision not to have surgery right away was wise or not. It's awfully difficult for an athlete to say, "Sure, let's do the surgery now" when he's feeling little or no pain and is abilities aren't being affected. I think the rest of the season is going to be tough for Plush.
And lest we forget, Weiss with the bronze. Good for Mike and his pike
Rgirl
Okay one thing about "Skate Canada created the COP." True, SC was in charge of the panel of coaches, judges, former skaters, and statisticians from all over the skating world who were the ones who actually developed the COP. BTW, Colorado is in Mexico, not Canada
) and overall, the way he moves is so exciting to me. And where I see the irony is that Sandhu wasn't even going to be there, lol.As for Plush, I said this about Sasha and Shizuka too, but I think the IFSC occurring a week before the GPF was poor scheduling on the part of the ISU. Put the cheezefest AFTER the GPF, not a week before. Also, meniscal tears (Plush's knee injury) get worse as time goes on. They usuallydon't hurt much or affect athletes early on after the injury, but as time goes on the pain increases and the ability of the muscles to compensate for the instability caused by the meniscal tear decreases. So between the stress put on his knee by the IFSC a week before and the time issue in general no doubt hurt Plush and that injury is only going to affect him more as he goes through Russian Nats, Europeans, and Worlds. I wouldn't be surprised if he drops out of Euros and gets a bye (sp?) to Worlds. Even with that, we'll only know if his decision not to have surgery right away was wise or not. It's awfully difficult for an athlete to say, "Sure, let's do the surgery now" when he's feeling little or no pain and is abilities aren't being affected. I think the rest of the season is going to be tough for Plush.
And lest we forget, Weiss with the bronze. Good for Mike and his pike
Rgirl
Okay one thing about "Skate Canada created the COP." True, SC was in charge of the panel of coaches, judges, former skaters, and statisticians from all over the skating world who were the ones who actually developed the COP. BTW, Colorado is in Mexico, not Canada
Um, not quite what I meant. I said it was ironic that Sandhu is Canadian, since it took a Canadian skater to expose a serious flaw in their system. Get irony?
It's not as if Plushy threw in an easy combination just to get the points. He did what nobody else in the competition could do. On the other hand, skaters like Kevin VDP and Carolina Kostner, are totally milking the CoP with their triple/triples and multiple double axels. To me, that is not leading towards a well-balanced program.
C
Cactus
Guest
This argument is degenerating into silly polemics. As I said earlier, the anti-ISU crowd would do better to decry the rushed implementation of the COP and the resulting cognitive dissonance of the skaters than the validity of the rule itself. As far as rules go, this one is pretty defensible. The main fault of the rule is that it should've made only the first jump count, instead of discounting the entire combination/series. That would be enough to discourage people from "milking" the COP.
But Plushenko did not tack on the double toe merely to "milk" the COP. It's a measely double toe. His explanation for his choices of jumps is very reasonable: He simply wasn't aware that the entire triple axel/double toe combination would be ignored. The problem exposed by this outcome affects far more than just Sandhu or Plushenko. The avalanche of changes in the COP should not have been made relevant so soon. The ISU's lack of respect and understanding for the skaters should disturb fans of Sandhu and Plushenko alike.
But Plushenko did not tack on the double toe merely to "milk" the COP. It's a measely double toe. His explanation for his choices of jumps is very reasonable: He simply wasn't aware that the entire triple axel/double toe combination would be ignored. The problem exposed by this outcome affects far more than just Sandhu or Plushenko. The avalanche of changes in the COP should not have been made relevant so soon. The ISU's lack of respect and understanding for the skaters should disturb fans of Sandhu and Plushenko alike.
