Sasha. Comeback. Believe it.

[Mathman]

...it's just common sense.

I am 100% in disagreement with this. The whole concept of sport is an even playing field. No favored treatment to anyone because of past accomplishments.

At the 76 AD Olympic games, the Emperor Nero won the chariot race in spite of falling out of his chariot during the race. All the other drivers dutifully pulled up behind and waited for him to be helped up, because, well, he was Nero.

 

[evangeline]

I am 100% in disagreement with this. The whole concept of sport is an even playing field. No favored treatment to anyone because of past accomplishments.

I agree! No double standards in sport--athletes should all follow the same rules and be judged by the same standards. Past performance does not necessarily guarantee future returns (was that the saying? I can't remember).

That being said, I'm secretly glad Sasha got a second GP even if it was against the rules....

 

[janetfan]

I am 100% in disagreement with this. The whole concept of sport is an even playing field. No favored treatment to anyone because of past accomplishments.

At the 76 AD Olympic games, the Emperor Nero won the chariot race in spite of falling out of his chariot during the race. All the other drivers dutifully pulled up behind and waited for him to be helped up, because, well, he was Nero.

Just curious - how much did you have to pay for your ticket to the chariot race mm?

 

[Particle Man]

I am 100% in disagreement with this. The whole concept of sport is an even playing field. No favored treatment to anyone because of past accomplishments.

Once the competition starts and the skating and judging begins, yes! But for qualification? There are ALREADY rules for byes given past accomplishments! Under the rules Sasha can walk into Nationals because she is reigning Olympic medalist, is that "fair" by your standard? What on earth would it prove for Sasha or Michelle to destroy all the little kids at sectionals and regionals? It would prove nothing, it would be pointless and humiliating. They are legends. The sport needs legends, skaters who inspire public interest.

Sasha gets a bye, under "The Rules", just by holding an Olympic silver medal from 2006. Why? Because it makes sense, so it was added to the rules. Why then can't Michelle get a bye? Oh, first we need to write it as a rule. How about "anyone holding 30 gold medals gets a bye to Nationals." Sounds reasonable to me.

 

[Mathman]

Just curious - how much did you have to pay for your ticket to the chariot race mm?

All I remember clearly were the guards at the top of the locked gate during the singing event (won by Nero), ready to spear audience members who tried to escape during the contest.

After the Olympics Nero went on tour among the provinces and won a total of 1800 gold medals in various events.

So much for Michelle's measly 40 major championships.

 

[janetfan]

Once the competition starts and the skating and judging begins, yes! But for qualification? There are ALREADY rules for byes given past accomplishments! Under the rules Sasha can walk into Nationals because she is reigning Olympic medalist, is that "fair" by your standard? What on earth would it prove for Sasha or Michelle to destroy all the little kids at sectionals and regionals? It would prove nothing, it would be pointless and humiliating. They are legends. The sport needs legends, skaters who inspire public interest.

Sasha gets a bye, under "The Rules", just by holding an Olympic silver medal from 2006. Why? Because it makes sense, so it was added to the rules. Why then can't Michelle get a bye? Oh, first we need to write it as a rule. How about "anyone holding 30 gold medals gets a bye to Nationals." Sounds reasonable to me.

For me, that was another very good post.
It is obvious some of us here are sticklers for rules no matter the cost or consequences. Others would like to have a steady dose of common sense added to go along with rules. Some like me just want what is best for a dying sport. It is crucial to the future of the skating to get the TV broadcast money back or our skating will take a long deep detour the way it has happened in Russia. No money, no good skating team. So by all means, bring back a few stars or whatever it takes. I dont want a 3rd rate skating federation run by strict, unbending rules. I want a vibrant skating federation run with a lot of smarts and common sense. I also support a federation that supports the skaters that gave as much as Michelle and even Sasha. Is that too much to hope for?

 

[janetfan]

All I remember clearly were the guards at the top of the locked gate during the singing event (won by Nero), ready to spear audience members who tried to escape during the contest.

After the Olympics Nero went on tour among the provinces and won a total of 1800 gold medals in various events.

So much for Michelle's measly 40 major championships.

a good one.

 

[Mathman]

Some like me just want what is best for a dying sport.

In my opinion, figure skating's road back to health lies in the future, not the past. I would rather see the USFSA promoting tomorrow's stars than tyring to bring back yesterday's.

The other problem with seeming to favor one skater over another -- common sense though this may be -- is that figure skating's biggest image problem is that it is a dishonest, fixed, non-sport. Like anonymous judging. It makes it seem like like the crooks are winning the battle.

 

[Particle Man]

It is obvious some of us here are sticklers for rules no matter the cost or consequences. Others would like to have a steady dose of common sense added to go along with rules.

I don't see the fundamental difference. Ideally, rules are just common sense written down. Rules in a sport also change and evolve, they aren't handed down by God for all time. They put in some bye rules because they made sense. It doesn't mean those are the only possible theoretical situations someone could "fairly" get a bye. While they might not explicitly write "30 gold medals" as an outright rule to give someone a bye, as it would apply to almost no one, it certainly seems at least as valid as "I got an Olympic silver 3 years ago."

 

[Spun Silver]

I don't see the fundamental difference. Ideally, rules are just common sense written down. Rules in a sport also change and evolve, they aren't handed down by God for all time. They put in some bye rules because they made sense. It doesn't mean those are the only possible theoretical situations someone could "fairly" get a bye. While they might not explicitly write "30 gold medals" as an outright rule to give someone a bye, as it would apply to almost no one, it certainly seems just as valid as "I got an Olympic silver 3 years ago."

Excellent point.

 

[janetfan]

In my opinion, figure skating's road back to health lies in the future, not the past. I would rather see the USFSA promoting tomorrow's stars than tyring to bring back yesterday's.

The other problem with seeming to favor one skater over another -- common sense though this may be -- is that figure skating's biggest image problem is that it is a dishonest, fixed, non-sport. Like anonymous judging. It makes it seem like like the crooks are winning the battle.

Good points that I can easily agree with.

There is a saying "sometimes you must to take a step backward in order to go forward."
I think that could apply here as well. At the moment US Skating has less influence with ISU than at any time in recent history. If we can't fix or even influence some of the apparent problems facing skating today then who will?

 

[Mathman]

Ideally, rules are just common sense written down.

The problem is, we cannot agree on what constututes common sense. But we can hope to agree on what the rules say.

Is it "common sense" that Fumie Suguri does not deserve any special break for getting fourth place at the Olympics, but if she had gotten third, then "common sense" says that now she should get a special break?

Should the Olympic selection procedure be, a skater goes to the Olympics if and only if it is common sense that she go?

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Common Sense does not play in the Rules of the Games. This is a stupid way to get a favorite special attention. Dumb? YES! Maybe even CROOKED.

 

[Particle Man]

I was going to make the usual joke "I constitute common sense, so I'll make the decisions " and then I realized -- I'd never want to decide who gets these 2 Olympic spots. Not because I think I couldn't be unbiased, but because how horrible it would be to be forced to deny so many skaters their Olympic dream.

Badmouth and joke about the USFSA all you want. When it comes down to it, I think they will treat the decision extremely seriously. If someone who will not be a 2010 Nationals gold or silver medalist thinks they are going, they are gonna need an amazing reason... I really think the only skater who can slip into the Olympics without gold or silver will be Sasha, and in place of the silver she will need a bronze, a wing and a prayer...

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Actually, I think this could possibly happen. If Michelle doesn't come back, and if Bereswill shows a lot of promise in her other GP event, this might turn out to be the best possible use of that spot.

There is only one week between Becky's NHK event and Skate America, however.

And there is the lovely Alexe Gilles for a 2nd GP but it has to be within the Rules. Anyway, it's nice to write and read about other US Ladies besides u-no-hoo, but it's that common sense thing. That's so much more important than the Rules. No?

 

[PolymerBob]

Now now boys, play nice.

This brings up an interesting point. If Sasha and Michelle decide to bow out, we Americans will feel that Becky and Alexe should get their spots. But do the other 40 federations have a say? I mean, are there "rules" that state who the spots go to?

 

[janetfan]

Now now boys, play nice.

This brings up an interesting point. If Sasha and Michelle decide to bow out, we Americans will feel that Becky and Alexe should get their spots. But do the other 40 federations have a say? I mean, are there "rules" that state who the spots go to?

"Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in"
Michael Corleone

Of course there are rules
But I will defer to others who have read and studied them with more enthusiasm and diligence than I have.

 

[PolymerBob]

I think we are getting angry here because we are looking at it the wrong way. ISU rules state how many spots a skater is entitled to. Mao, Miki and Rachael are entitled to 2, so that’s what they get. Becky, Alexe and Caroline are entitled to 1, so that’s what they get ( at first. )

Now, after the entitlements are given out, the ISU has spots “left over”. It’s like handing out candy at Halloween and having some candy left over. The spirit, if not the letter, of the rules seem to be that the ISU can hand out the “left over” candy anyway they wish. Everybody already has what they really deserve, so the ISU believes the left over spots are theirs to hand out as they choose.

Caroline deserves one, but the ISU gave her a left over. Sasha deserves none, but the ISU gave her 2 left overs. The TBA spots mean that there are still some left overs to hand out. The point is, everybody got at least what they deserve. Some got more, but nobody got less.

The big disagreement here is how the left overs are dispensed. Most of us, including me, feel that there should be set rules, available for all to read, on how left overs are handled. I think this is something the ISU really needs to work on for next year.

 

[wishmaker]

Okay, guys, cool down. When I write, I try not to use the word 'commom sense' during discussions, because for me, Common is relative - like common to/for whom. So sorry to interrupt.

 

[R.D.]

Well, after musing over this debate, it seems as if there's only one thing to say.

Cohen got that 2nd GP and no matter how much skatefans bicker about it, it's a done deal. Now, I happen to think it's not going to make a difference anyway because she'll withdraw from at least one of them (I'd put money on TEB). The only hope is that the French fed and the USFS have someone waiting in the wings that can take her place.

As another poster would say, "over and out".