Sasha & Rockne???

[R.D.]

Re: Sasha & David??? LOL

I was wondering if that was Sasha or Jamie!

Looks like the former to me. But could be wrong, of course. But doesn't matter to me since Yuna is visible in the picture anyway. (So it would go in one folder regardless of which skater it is)

 

[gkelly]

Re: Sasha & David??? LOL

Looks like Sasha is doing a single twist in that picture.

Yeah, that's what it looks like to me too. Even if the picture was snapped before or after she pulled in tighter, there doesn't seem to be enough tension to generate 3 revolutions.

Of course more women can do a lift than a harder triple.

Especially if we're just talking about "a" lift. Even an overhead lift. Maybe a level 1 lift from group 3 or 4 is comparable difficulty to a double lutz or double axel, but I'd have to estimate that a level 4 lift from group 5A, or a successful triple twist, is at least as hard as a triple flip or lutz.

Of course it would be instructive if someone who has done advanced singles and pair skating would weigh in with their experience.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Re: Sasha & David??? LOL

Well, while I am setting up an interview with Kristi to add another opinion to the mix, here is a relevant statistical analysis someone could look into:

Compare the number of performances in a year where pairs females successfully completed a Triple Twist + both of their Throws + all of their Lifts vs. the number of performances in a year where singles females successfully landed a Triple-Triple combination + at least 1 of each of the more difficult Triple jumps - Loop, Flip, and Lutz (doing a Triple Axel can count as doing a difficult Triple-Triple combination).

 

[i love to skate]

Re: Sasha & David??? LOL

Compare the number of performances in a year where pairs females successfully completed a Triple Twist + both of their Throws + all of their Lifts vs. the number of performances in a year where singles females successfully landed a Triple-Triple combination + at least 1 of each of the more difficult Triple jumps - Loop, Flip, and Lutz (doing a Triple Axel can count as doing a difficult Triple-Triple combination).

If you are going to throw the triple-triple combination and all 5 triples into the mix, you can't simply say "any program that had a triple twist in it". A triple triple combination is harder to do, as is a triple twist that is of a higher level. It should be "a performance that included a successful, triple twist that was level 2 or higher"

ETA:
For a quick example, there were 0 pairs at the Olympics long program that did a level 2 or higher triple twist.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Re: Sasha & David??? LOL

Nah, a higher level Twist would just be akin to a more difficult 3-3 combination. None of the women at Olympics did an extremely difficult 3-3 combination (like 3Loop-3Loop or 3Lutz-3Loop), btw. Although that's not really a fair comparison either because a higher level twist also requires additional skill on the part of the MAN in the pair. Again, we are trying to ascertain the individual technical difficulty.

You'll find way more performances per year where pairs females executed all of those elements vs. singles females being able to do all those jumps.

 

[herios]

Re: Sasha & David??? LOL

This thread went completely of rails, is not about Rockne and Sasha anymore.
All I have to say is if I would be Rockne I would not be even consider to skate with Sasha, she has always been an unreliable jumper. This stumble today in Korea on the 2 axel, just brought back in my memory the last time I went to see SOI and Sasha was supposed to be the headliner. After Sasha fell on her 2 axel, she never attempted another jump and went on to do only spirals and, spins and streching all over the ice. She was the biggest dissapointment of the whole cast.
Rockne is a younng skater, he needs to find a young talent good technically in the first place, he could grow up and gel together with in a few years.

 

[R.D.]

Re: Sasha & David??? LOL

^ Cohen is one of few skaters IMHO that can get away without doing jumps. I think she should go that route. Like they often say, if you don't got it, don't flaunt it...

 

[blue dog]

You guys are forgetting that the triple twist is only 2.5 revolutions for the woman. It's like a double axel. The final HALF of the triple twist is completed by the man on the ground. Notice that the woman faces forward when she starts rotating, then faces backwards when she is caught. The man is facing backwards when he tosses the female, and then facing forwards when setting her down. So, in essence, a triple twist is really like a double axel.

 

[aftertherain]

Re: Sasha & David??? LOL

^ Cohen is one of few skaters IMHO that can get away without doing jumps. I think she should go that route. Like they often say, if you don't got it, don't flaunt it...

Maybe she'd fare better with ice dancing? No jumps there, after all ...

 

[R.D.]

Re: Sasha & David??? LOL

Maybe she'd fare better with ice dancing? No jumps there, after all ...

Yes. OTOH, it might make it too easy to "phone in" her performances. (Oh wait, she already does that )

 

[i love to skate]

Re: Sasha & David??? LOL

Nah, a higher level Twist would just be akin to a more difficult 3-3 combination. None of the women at Olympics did an extremely difficult 3-3 combination (like 3Loop-3Loop or 3Lutz-3Loop), btw. Although that's not really a fair comparison either because a higher level twist also requires additional skill on the part of the MAN in the pair. Again, we are trying to ascertain the individual technical difficulty.

So you won't include a higher level twist because of the skill required by the man. So I guess lifts and throws have nothing to do with a man either? Perhaps the reason a pair skater fell on a throw was the fault of the man, for example.

Your criteria for comparing the pairs skills is much too vague. You want the ladies to do all 5 triples, yet for pairs you just say "landed both throws". Why don't you make it fair, and say landed two throws of a triple loop, flip, or lutz? Also as to the lifts, you just say "lifts". Why don't you have specific criteria for those?

You'll find way more performances per year where pairs females executed all of those elements vs. singles females being able to do all those jumps.

Not if you applied the criteria consistently to each discipline you are trying to compare...

 

[prettykeys]

I’m glad there are people who can appreciate the pairs sport for what it is. But for someone to think that Yuna Kim is a better athlete than Xue Shen really needs to have their head examined.

People who think that Xue Shen is a better athlete than YuNa Kim desperately need to get their head examined...and re-examined.

 

[Tinymavy15]

People who think that Xue Shen is a better athlete than YuNa Kim desperately need to get their head examined...and re-examined.

Why? Xue Shen is just as flexoible and her legs and back are much stronger in order to land those throws. Both seem to have good stamina, but let's not forget that Xue Shen is like 15 years older than Yu-na. Xue Shen has done things Yu-na could never do ( and vice versa I guess) but I don't are where Yu-na comes out ahead.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Re: Sasha & David??? LOL

So you won't include a higher level twist because of the skill required by the man. So I guess lifts and throws have nothing to do with a man either? Perhaps the reason a pair skater fell on a throw was the fault of the man, for example.

Your criteria for comparing the pairs skills is much too vague. You want the ladies to do all 5 triples, yet for pairs you just say "landed both throws".

No, I said landed both throws + did the Triple Twist + all of the lifts too.

As for the higher level Triple Twist, I already said you can count it (just that it may favor the pairs argument because it doesn't take into account the male's side of the work)...the comparison is that no pairs executed it vs. no singles females doing a very difficult Triple-Triple combination.

Even only consider the top pairs teams, who do the most difficult lifts, along with the Triple Twist and multiple Triple Throws. There are far more performances per year where those pairs are able to execute their elements than there are singles skaters across the board who execute all of the difficult jumps.

The Chinese teams alone from the 2009-2010 season had more performances where they were perfect on all those elements than there were singles skaters who did the jumps perfectly. The only area where the Chinese teams usually would mess up? On their actual jumps.

Pang/Tong especially has suffered throughout their whole career under CoP scoring because she so frequently fails to do the 3Toe and 2Axel properly. And yet, in pretty much every performance the Triple Twist is executed beautifully, the throws are huge and landed cleanly, and the Lifts are performed without a stumble or drop.

 

[i love to skate]

Re: Sasha & David??? LOL

As for the higher level Triple Twist, I already said you can count it (just that it may favor the pairs argument because it doesn't take into account the male's side of the work)

You missed my point. The male's side of the work is PART of pairs skating - in the lifts and throws as well. So you simply can't discount a higher level triple twist because of the male's side of the work because the male's contribution is evident in throws and lifts as well.

As I said before, if a female falls on a throw but it is due to the male screwing up the timing or being too far apart on the takeoff - how does that show how capable the female skater is? If a male hits a rut on the takeoff of a lift, how does that show how talented the female skater is in your comparison?

Even only consider the top pairs teams, who do the most difficult lifts, along with the Triple Twist and multiple Triple Throws. There are far more performances per year where those pairs are able to execute their elements than there are singles skaters across the board who execute all of the difficult jumps.

Yes, this is my point. You made sure to state that female skaters had to execute "all of the difficult jumps". Yet for pairs, you didn't specify WHAT throws they had to do - just that they had to have landed the throws. My question is, why don't you say "landed both throws - which BOTH MUST have been of the more difficult jumps (triple loop, flip, and lutz)"?

ETA:
IMO, for this comparison to work you have to be fair to each discipline. You are very specific in the singles discipline (triple-triple or triple axel, and landed EACH of the 5 triples). Yet for pairs you are very vague ( triple twist, lifts, and throws). You have to realize that the majority of pairs elements have many more levels and categories to them that singles skating (twists and lifts for example). IMO, it just looks like you are trying to make singles look harder by not being specific to pairs and not even considering my suggestion of using a higher level twist, specific throw jumps, and categories of lifts.

 

[Blades of Passion]

You're not saying anything of value anymore. I just DID take into consideration high level lifts. I narrowed it down so specifically as to only consider the Chinese pairs skaters (who certainly are at the very top in the World for technical difficult among pairs) vs. every female singles skater in the World and the results still say that pairs moves are completed more consistently than singles moves are! You completely ignored the very valid Pang/Tong example as well. Actually, in general, pairs teams fail on their jumps more than they do every other element in their programs combined. Let's think about that for a good minute.

 

[gold12345]

Re: Sasha & David??? LOL

There are far more performances per year where those pairs are able to execute their elements than there are singles skaters across the board who execute all of the difficult jumps.

I must have missed all these pair competitions with clean programs. Clean long programs are few and far between in pairs, almost a rarity I would say. Even the Chinese pairs did not do many clean LPs last season, that's for sure. Even if it WAS true that pair teams were skating cleaner on a more regular basis than the ladies, that could be a result of a weak ladies field, or an usually strong pairs field. It wouldn't prove that it's easier to complete a pairs program than complete a singles program.

Pang/Tong especially has suffered throughout their whole career under CoP scoring because she so frequently fails to do the 3Toe and 2Axel properly. And yet, in pretty much every performance the Triple Twist is executed beautifully, the throws are huge and landed cleanly, and the Lifts are performed without a stumble or drop.

Yes, the top Chinese pairs are masters of some of the major pair elements. They've been skating pairs their entire lives. I don't see how this helps "prove" singles is harder than pairs.

You guys are forgetting that the triple twist is only 2.5 revolutions for the woman. It's like a double axel. The final HALF of the triple twist is completed by the man on the ground. Notice that the woman faces forward when she starts rotating, then faces backwards when she is caught. The man is facing backwards when he tosses the female, and then facing forwards when setting her down. So, in essence, a triple twist is really like a double axel.

Pair girls may wish the triple twist was like a double axel. It's not really like a jump at all.

This thread went completely of rails, is not about Rockne and Sasha anymore.
All I have to say is if I would be Rockne I would not be even consider to skate with Sasha, she has always been an unreliable jumper. This stumble today in Korea on the 2 axel, just brought back in my memory the last time I went to see SOI and Sasha was supposed to be the headliner. After Sasha fell on her 2 axel, she never attempted another jump and went on to do only spirals and, spins and streching all over the ice. She was the biggest dissapointment of the whole cast.
Rockne is a younng skater, he needs to find a young talent good technically in the first place, he could grow up and gel together with in a few years.

Looking at Sasha's performances in Korea, her jumping does look strange... Very tentative, slow skating and very small jumps she was having trouble rotating (even the 2a). This was glaring just in a show... I don't see how she's in any condition to be a pair skater. And if she's injured already trying to learn the basic pair moves, all the more reason why a pairs career wouldn't realistically pan out. There is something so fragile about her, and she's not young to begin with.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

Re: Sasha & David??? LOL

While I think this whole argument is inherently silly, Blades point is that the flawed SBS jumps outnumbers the flaws on the the rest of the elements combined. I don't know if's true, but it's certainly believable.

 

[gold12345]

Re: Sasha & David??? LOL

While I think this whole argument is inherently silly, Blades point is that the flawed SBS jumps outnumbers the flaws on the the rest of the elements combined. I don't know if's true, but it's certainly believable.

That would make sense because between the girl and the guy, six SBS jumps must be landed in a long program. And jumping flaws are usually very noticeable.

On the other hand, we'll often have little idea that a Level 4 death spiral had been dropped to a Level 1 or that a triple twist had received a bunch of negative GOE unless we look at the protocols. And while the throws are extremely important in pairs, the guy is probably not going to fall, so there really are only two chances of falling as opposed to the six chances to mess up the SBS jumps. This doesn't mean a throw is any easier than a solo jump.

I do agree this argument is silly. It's almost like comparing apples and oranges. A solo jump is different in a singles program than it is in a pairs program anyway (have to jump in close proximity to a partner, have to be in unison, etc).

 

[aftertherain]

People who think that Xue Shen is a better athlete than YuNa Kim desperately need to get their head examined...and re-examined.

Oh.

How cold.

Way to compare a 19 year-old with a 31 year-old, love.