Sasha & Rockne???

[FlattFan]

Re: Sasha & David??? LOL

Also, just because two people try SBS jumps and it appears to look good, does not mean a judge would give a +3 on TES. Yes they get the job done but NOT up to the same level as the top pairs skaters. Doing it consistently is the key not just once on a youtube video.

So it appears to look good and better than the top pairs skaters, but it's not up to the same level as the top pairs skaters? What is this logic?
Are you confused about something? The single skaters examples were one-offs, they didn't have time to train and they can do it in a short amount of time. If they switch to pairs, I'm sure they would be more consistent than the top pairs.

 

[mousepotato]

Re: Sasha & David??? LOL

So it appears to look good and better than the top pairs skaters, but it's not up to the same level as the top pairs skaters? What is this logic?

Stephane throwing Johnny was no where near the level of Robin and Aliona. Yes, they did it but what would whould the judges have thought?

Are you confused about something? The single skaters examples were one-offs, they didn't have time to train and they can do it in a short amount of time. If they switch to pairs, I'm sure they would be more consistent than the top pairs.

Are you sure? I understand Stephane and Shizuka were just doing an exhibition and would need more time to get it together. But for someone to assume just because a single is/was good they will be on the World podium is presumptuous.

Sasha (or any single) may be good in pairs with Rockne but she may not be, there are many other factors that need to be learned that she may not be good at, or she may not even like doing them.

 

[FlattFan]

Re: Sasha & David??? LOL

What's the new base value for the Triple Axel throw, 8.5? The clean landing should add another +1 GOE.
What's the Robin and Aliona throw again? The triple flip, 5.3? Have they ever gotten +2 GOE on that throw?
Please, not even close! What the judges thought on the throw bear no difference to the base value.

Stephane and Johnny are of similar height and weight. We're debating the female single skaters moving into pairs. They would find a suitable partner, I hope. I don't think they'd have problem w/ the throw jumps or the SBS jumps at all.

How long were Shizuka and Stephane training together? Couldn't be more than 2 days. They weren't in Conneticut months before the event to train full time for it. They didn't even skate together prior to the thing. If you put them together for years, you don't think they can sync their moves better than Robin and Aliona?

 

[Blades of Passion]

Well, LOL, Lambiel and Shizuka are not a pairing that would work at all competitively. He wouldn't be able to lift her and their bodily movements are much different.

I'm sure they could have been competitive in pairs with suitable partners but, again, that's the restriction of pairs in the first place - Lambiel would need to find someone very small and light; Shizuka would need to find someone extremely tall and strong. Shizuka especially is so tall for a girl that a bodybuilder who also happened to be an excellent ice skater would really be the only possible pairing...there simply isn't a magical pool of compatible partners that any given skater can select from.

What's the new base value for the Triple Axel throw, 8.5?

Actually, throw Triple Axel and Quad Toe/Salchow aren't valued all that high....just 7.5 for the Triple Axel and 8.0 (?!?!?!?!?) for a Quad.

 

[Tinymavy15]

Returning to topic, after seeing Sasha miss almost every double axel and triple salchow while skating solo in show, I am certain that she and Rockne could not work. Sasha's days as a skater are numbered IMO.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Returning to topic, after seeing Sasha miss almost every double axel and triple salchow while skating solo in show, I am certain that she and Rockne could not work. Sasha's days as a skater are numbered IMO.

I agree, although lacking of training hindered her ability to do those jumps I'm sure. She could get them fairly consistent with training; she didn't have trouble with her Double Axel at Nationals.

I doubt Sasha has the fortitude to continue in competitive skating, but Pairs would be a better route for her regardless if she does indeed have the will to continue on.

 

[gold12345]

Returning to topic, after seeing Sasha miss almost every double axel and triple salchow while skating solo in show, I am certain that she and Rockne could not work. Sasha's days as a skater are numbered IMO.

While I wouldn't expect Sasha to realistically handle competitive pairs skating, I thought she would be okay handling shows in singles skating for this upcoming year. But you are right, her jumping was generally pretty painful.. and that's with her only trying one or two jumps per program. Most of her double axels were very cheated and she omitted the 3S multiple times after fouling up the double axel. I know these are only shows, but shouldn't a headlining skater be able to at least consistently rotate a double axel? Maybe Sasha hasn't been training much lately, but the talk about a return to competition seems extra silly now. If I was her, I would be focusing on what she does best-- her spiral, her flexible spins, her beautiful split jumps-- all of which would be great for a show.

I am talking only about the non-jump elements in pairs programs. The throws, lifts, twists (add in death spirals if you want too)...those are all very commonly completed without any significant error. If you look at the performances from last year, the 3 Chinese teams alone had a combined total of 10 LP performances where they did all of those elements without error. Compare that to the number of times every female skater in the World was able to skate a clean LP with a Triple-Triple combination (or 3Axel) and all of the difficult jumps...1 skate from Yu-Na (despite not doing a 3Loop I will let her Olympic LP count), 2 from Mao, 2 from Flatt (letting the UR issue slide), 1 from that Russian girl...so that's a total of 6. From every female in the World across an entire season. In comparison to 3 pairs teams being able to do all of their high level non-singles elements cleanly 10 times during the season.

You can't exclude SBS jumps when you compare the difficulties of a pairs program to a singles program. Doing SBS jumps in unison and close to a partner is a major part of pair skating. The guy may have to do a SBS jump after an exhausting lift... The girl may have to do a SBS jump after doing a throw that requires entirely different timing. This is very different than if you were to simply do, say, a 3S after doing a 3F and 3L as a singles skater. So if we're going to compare a pairs program to a singles program, we need to look at everything.

Did you see the recent pairs professional competition where Arakawa and Lambiel did side-by-side Triple Toes perfectly in unision with a difficult transition leading into it (and they have no pairs training AFAIK)? IMO, jumps like Triple Toe and Double Axel are clearly not that difficult to do in unision if you are a strong singles skater. Hence, another link in my argument that many singles skaters could be good competitive pairs skaters if they really wanted to train for it, but not very many pairs skaters could be good singles skaters.

Maybe Arakawa and Lambiel are lucky enough to have similar timing on their jumps. But in this case, no question Sasha would need a timing change on her 3S. Trying to change how she has done a 3S her whole life at her age wouldn't be an easy task.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AzM4LM8NsbY
Johnny did a throw triple axel. If you're a good single skater, there's no reason why you can't do throw or SBS jumps.

Johnny is a guy! He has springs in his body and barely had to be thrown in that. All-male pair teams could probably be infinitely better than male-female pair teams, but it's not happening. And Johnny's little throw 3S with Lambiel would be different if he was doing it within an actual pairs program. This argument is getting absurd now.

 

[Blades of Passion]

You can't exclude SBS jumps when you compare the difficulties of a pairs program to a singles program. Doing SBS jumps in unison and close to a partner is a major part of pair skating. The guy may have to do a SBS jump after an exhausting lift... The girl may have to do a SBS jump after doing a throw that requires entirely different timing. This is very different than if you were to simply do, say, a 3S after doing a 3F and 3L as a singles skater. So if we're going to compare a pairs program to a singles program, we need to look at everything.

That's a horrible argument.

Singles skaters have to do 5+ different types of Triple jumps (not to mention a Quad possibly). Each one requires different timing and each one is tiresome on the body. It's not more difficult to do a side-by-side 3Sal jump after a throw than it is to do a 3S after some other Triple jump that required different technique. You're just as tired, if not more tired, and your brain has to change gears just the same.

I'm pretty sure Jessica Dube doubled out on her 3S all the time in her singles performances. Clearly it wasn't easier for her to do it within the framework of a singles program than it is a pairs program.

 

[R.D.]

It's just a show. Who cares about jumps. Seriously.

That said, if you are having enough difficulty with them at a given time, better to take them out than to keep falling on them.

 

[DiSkates]

Johnny is a guy! He has springs in his body and barely had to be thrown in that. All-male pair teams could probably be infinitely better than male-female pair teams, but it's not happening. And Johnny's little throw 3S with Lambiel would be different if he was doing it within an actual pairs program. This argument is getting absurd now.

They might be better at throws since guys do triple axels without being thrown, and possibly SBS jumps since they are closer in size and strenth to each other and it might be easier to sync their timing. I somehow highly doubt their lifts would be infinitely better =/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djTOHP1OLUQ

and their death spirals are nothing to be impressed by either

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfFuFWOiE3M&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYANMQJAIk4&feature=related

I would hate to see what would happen should they attempt a triple twist.

 

[FlattFan]

You can't exclude SBS jumps when you compare the difficulties of a pairs program to a singles program. Doing SBS jumps in unison and close to a partner is a major part of pair skating. The guy may have to do a SBS jump after an exhausting lift... The girl may have to do a SBS jump after doing a throw that requires entirely different timing. This is very different than if you were to simply do, say, a 3S after doing a 3F and 3L as a singles skater. So if we're going to compare a pairs program to a singles program, we need to look at everything.

Lutz, flip, loop all have different timing. If they can adapt to different timing in different jumps, then timing for throw shouldn't be a problem. What are you talking about?

Johnny is a guy! He has springs in his body and barely had to be thrown in that. All-male pair teams could probably be infinitely better than male-female pair teams, but it's not happening. And Johnny's little throw 3S with Lambiel would be different if he was doing it within an actual pairs program. This argument is getting absurd now.

What? Then a good female skater with springs in her body doesn't even need to be thrown. She can just hop into a triple axel and her loser partner wouldn't fall on his face trying to throw her like that emo Maria Mukhortova once skated with? How's the 3S w/ Lambiel would be different if it was within an actual pairs program? I fail to understand what you're trying to say. Like Sasha can do quad Sal in practice but couldn't do double Sal in a queso-y show?

 

[gmyers]

They might be better at throws since guys do triple axels without being thrown, and possibly SBS jumps since they are closer in size and strenth to each other and it might be easier to sync their timing. I somehow highly doubt their lifts would be infinitely better =/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djTOHP1OLUQ

and their death spirals are nothing to be impressed by either

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfFuFWOiE3M&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYANMQJAIk4&feature=related

I would hate to see what would happen should they attempt a triple twist.

What if they tried an old style triple twist and the revolutionised Chinese style?

 

[i love to skate]

After watching Sasha's performance at Yuna's show all I can say is yikes! She looks frail, nervous, unsure of herself, and no where close to being strong enough to do pairs. I don't think there is any chance that she will seriously team up with Rockne for four years.

As for the argument of pairs/singles....I think it has run its course. Pairs is difficult, unique, and special and this discipline has given the skating world some of the most memorable performances and athletes. When a pair team completes an awe inspiring triple twist or massive throw - you can hear an audible gasp come from the audience, as you can't quite believe what you just saw. The dangers of this discipline are well known and the biggest injuries in the sport have come in pairs skating.


Not for even a second do I believe that just any singles skater could be a pairs skaters as it takes a special type of person and athlete to take up pairs. The female pairs skaters are often compared to hockey goalies as people say, "they are some kind of crazy" :yes:

 

[Mathman]

If you have ever read Caroline's detractors, she was a failure at 13. :sheesh:

Or was Caroline at 13 the prettiest skater in the history of the sport?

 

[R.D.]

Or was Caroline at 13 the prettiest skater in the history of the sport?

that's more how I remember fans proclaiming her the next big thing. But her technique (or lack of it) caught up to her and now she has to backtrack and start all over again.

 

[gold12345]

After watching Sasha's performance at Yuna's show all I can say is yikes! She looks frail, nervous, unsure of herself, and no where close to being strong enough to do pairs. I don't think there is any chance that she will seriously team up with Rockne for four years.

As for the argument of pairs/singles....I think it has run its course. Pairs is difficult, unique, and special and this discipline has given the skating world some of the most memorable performances and athletes. When a pair team completes an awe inspiring triple twist or massive throw - you can hear an audible gasp come from the audience, as you can't quite believe what you just saw. The dangers of this discipline are well known and the biggest injuries in the sport have come in pairs skating.


Not for even a second do I believe that just any singles skater could be a pairs skaters as it takes a special type of person and athlete to take up pairs. The female pairs skaters are often compared to hockey goalies as people say, "they are some kind of crazy" :yes:

Well said.

That's a horrible argument.

Singles skaters have to do 5+ different types of Triple jumps (not to mention a Quad possibly). Each one requires different timing and each one is tiresome on the body. It's not more difficult to do a side-by-side 3Sal jump after a throw than it is to do a 3S after some other Triple jump that required different technique. You're just as tired, if not more tired, and your brain has to change gears just the same.

I'm pretty sure Jessica Dube doubled out on her 3S all the time in her singles performances. Clearly it wasn't easier for her to do it within the framework of a singles program than it is a pairs program.

You misinterpreted my post. Sorry if I was unclear. I didn't say a singles program was easier... I just mentioned how different a pairs program is. Both disciplines are very difficult in their own unique ways. Your post compared a singles program to a pairs program but excluded SBS jumps, so I just pointed out how vital SBS jumps were to a pairs program. Just because jumps are technically a singles skill, jumping in a pair program is different than jumping in a singles program. Therefore, SBS jumping is a very important pair skill that cannot be excluded in a discussion about the difficulty level of a pairs program.

I didn't say one discipline was harder than the other. My overall point is that it's virtually impossible to compare such different disciplines. They both present their own challenges, and it would be VERY improbable for a 20-something year old skater to switch to the other discipline and get to the top.

What? Then a good female skater with springs in her body doesn't even need to be thrown. She can just hop into a triple axel and her loser partner wouldn't fall on his face trying to throw her like that emo Maria Mukhortova once skated with? How's the 3S w/ Lambiel would be different if it was within an actual pairs program? I fail to understand what you're trying to say. Like Sasha can do quad Sal in practice but couldn't do double Sal in a queso-y show?

I was trying to point out that the physical makeup of a male is obviously different than a female. Of course jumping will generally come easier for males (and it will come easier when the skater is just messing around in practice rather than doing programs). Weir, who already gets a large amount of height and distance on his 3A, does not need to be "chucked" in a throw as much as a typical pair girl would. Hence, Weir can mess around with this element in practice just for fun. But for an actual pair team (which obviously contains a female), a throw triple axel would be a monumental task that would require a great deal of practice. So Johnny messing around in practice isn't indicative of anything. None of this has anything to do with Sasha whatsoever, so sorry to get off topic.

 

[bingbing]

I will be quite excited if it comes true,and I hope it will.I always hope that the Nat.2010 is not an end for Sasha`s comepetitive career,and pair-skating is a good way for Sasha to continue,because she has no problem with 2 kinds of single jumps,combination,steps and lift,even better than others.I hope it could be true.

 

[CzarinaAnya]

If Sasha takes care of herself, then I could see it. She's just too thin, right now.

 

[sunny0760]

Sasha looked great at the ice show last month.

See these pics.(3rd, 4th and 8th) Her skin looks like porcelain (most impressive to me!) and does not seem too thin.

http://www.50mmclub.com/bbs/zboard....c=on&&select_arrange=headnum&desc=asc&no=3308

I know many posters/viewers were disappointed with her jump quality or overall skating but I also heard a lot of spectators loved her skating. Some preferred Hallelujha, others preferred more exciting Mein Herr. Many people were pleasantly surprised how big her smile could be when her programs were successful.

 

[MKFSfan]

I thought Sasha looked MUCH healthier in the pictures/clips from ATS than she did at Nationals, which she apparently considers her competition weight. She was looking pretty good leading up to 2010 Nats, following 2006 Worlds, when I thought she looked scarily thin last. I think if Sasha were to return as an eligible Pairs skater, she would go back to being scary thin.