Scoring bias at the national level

[Magill]

Did I say it was never a factor? No, I did say, based on my experience, it is not a factor that stops people from watching figure skating. Based on your experience, it is. Our experiences differ.

The argument will also always depend on whether there is a perception of systemic biased judging. I do not have that viewpoint, and therefore need to work from it as a hypothetical, since for me it is not a fact.

Our experiences also differ on small feds and the impact of hypothetical "biased" judging on skaters from small feds. I do have an outsider's experience of that argument.

You will not find a smaller fed than México. Yet, based on my limited experience following and rooting for one particular Mexican skater intently for seven years judging is not perceived as rigged by those who do not already follow the sport. (and I invite our Mexican friends to correct me or to offer their own experiences as I am not Mexican and do not live there).

Why? The casual observer in Mexico does not believe that or care. They care that Donovan is a charismatic skater, that the made the Olympics, that he made the finals of the Olympics, that he skates to Mexican songs, trained in Mexico, orgullo mexicano. Therefore, "rigged judging" does not prevent the casual observer in Mexico from becoming a skating fan. Believe me.

In my experience, again, it is persons who are already skating fans, who perceive some systemic inequities, who are ready to rally around the "small fed" skater. IME, the casual observer does not perceive those inequities and it does not prevent them from becoming fans.

They do not necessarily observe them. They read about them in papers, over Internet or hear on TV when a big scandal hits and just stay with them
But that's true, our experiences differ as do our opinions.
I am not sure really if people you refer to are Mexican Donovan fans or Mexican people not watching FS at all. Whichever way, I'd say Mexico might not be the best example for this discussion as this is not just a small fed but basically mostly non-skating country. I am, sure there are FS fans there but probably they are not many anyway. I mean no offense, but I guess, most people there do not have any opinion of figure skating or its judging, it is just some exotic winter sport and isn't it great that one of ours has some success with it, and does it promoting our culture, and has some fans abroad, just wow! I can well imagine it. Just like I have no opinion of American football, or baseball, or some other sports completely foreign to the culture I come from, so whatever you tell me I just take it without any second thought....
I think this is a point when we just need to agree to disagree and move on as I do not see we can come to any common conclusions and will just repeat the same arguments over and over again, just multiplying examples and counter-examples, and eventually effectively killing this thread.

 

[Mathman]

Good to see at least a slap on the wrist. Now, I hope to see that French judge get one too.

Which one?

If the reference is to THE French judge, Mme Le Gougne in the 2002 pairs thing, the ISU did suspended both her and French Federation President M. Gailhaguet for three years plus the next Olympics. To me, though, it seemed more like a punishment for embarrassing the ISU in front of the IOC and a billion viewers than a real effort at addressing the issues of vote swapping/collaboration among judges.

The suspention did not stop Gailhaguet from running for ISU President later. Although the French were convicted of "conspiring" to fix the results, strangely no other federation was formally identified as the party that they conspired with.

The referee of the event, Ron Pfenning, who blew the whistle, shortly became involved in the World Skating Federation and was permanently expelled from the ISU.

 

[Mathman]

They do not necessarily observe them. They read about them in papers, over Internet or hear on TV when a big scandal hits and just stay with them.

I think that this is a big societal problem and not just for the ISU. Newspapers are constanly on the search for eye-poping headlines. We will never see the New York Times publish an op-ed piece about figure skating that starts out, "Well, the world championship was held the other day and everything went OK, the best skaters being rewarded for their talent and hard work."

 

[NanaPat]

But you know what was quite popular in Canada? The TV show where hockey stars were partnered with figure skaters in an ice dance/pairs competition.They were pretty good, too.

Does it still exist? I never got around to watching it as I hardly watch any television but it sounds great!

They don't do it every year because it is very expensive (at least compared to buying ready-made American or British shows). Last time it was held was during covid. It's called Battle of the Blades and it is very good. The hockey players develop skills very quickly, since they are strong and athletic and can already skate.

 

[Mathman]

...Otherwise, skating is far from dying. The main reason people watch a sport en mass is because their country has a horse in the race. To us in the west skating seems irrelevant to mainstream but in Russia & Japan its still massive. Most people I know in Canada probably dont even know rhythmic gymnastics exists at all, but in Russia now its even more popular than artistic gymnastics.

Not that the future of artistic gymnastics has anything to worry about in Russia. Martha has her attitude down!

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

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[Magill]

I think that this is a big societal problem and not just for the ISU. Newspapers are constanly on the search for eye-poping headlines. We will never see the New York Times publish an op-ed piece about figure skating that starts out, "Well, the world championship was held the other day and everything went OK, the best skaters being rewarded for their talent and hard work."

I never knew NYT was just a leading American tabloid press unit but if you say so... The next time they will remind us of the US Olympic team still awaiting their team medals from Beijing I will know that it is just NYT "on a constant search for eye-popping headlines", I will not allow them to fool me and will not pay attention, right? Is that what you're saying and what you're expecting the public to do, lol?
Or is there some other distinction that skips my attention?

 

[Mathman]

I never knew NYT was just a leading American tabloid press unit but if you say so...

I will get in trouble for saying this, but the New York Times conspired prominently with the FBI (Federal Bereau of Investigation) to affect the results of the 2016 U.S. Presidental election. True, they use bigger words than the self-acknowledged tabloids and they call everybody Mr. and Ms. Still, that's my conspiracy theory and I'm sticking to it!

Anyway, the point is that the "people," whether we are talking about figure skating ot national politics, have a responsibiolity not to swallow everything they read or hear In this post-truth society, where the only thing that matters is who can bellow the loudest and most persistently about the grievance of the day.

Other than that, though, it's a wonderful world. Go Junhwan Cha!

 

[Mathman]

Does it still exist? I never got around to watching it as I hardly watch any television but it sounds great!

They don't do it every year because it is very expensive (at least compared to buying ready-made American or British shows). Last time it was held was during covid. It's called Battle of the Blades and it is very good. The hockey players develop skills very quickly, since they are strong and athletic and can already skate.

Here are Vanessa James and Akim Aliu.

Vanessa James and Akim Aliu perform to 'Scared to Live' | Battle of the Blades

Vanessa James and Akim Aliu perform to 'Scared to Live' by The Weeknd on November 26th 2020, Episode 6 of Battle of the Blades. They will be competing on beh...

www.youtube.com

Kaitlyn Weaver and Sheldon Kennedy (They won that year,)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctGfpCx9_Ss&list=PLJyG4btas2dmkKJm4ItbdAeY6bWw3QuIZ&index=10

 

[Magill]

I will get in trouble for saying this, but the New York Times conspired prominently with the FBI (Federal Bereau of Investigation) to affect the results of the 2016 U.S. Presidental election. True, they use bigger words than the self-acknowledged tabloids and they call everybody Mr. and Ms. Still, that's my conspiracy theory and I'm sticking to it!

Anyway, the point is that the "people," whether we are talking about figure skating ot national politics, have a responsibiolity not to swallow everything they read or hear In this post-truth society, where the only thing that matters is who can bellow the loudest and most persistently about the grievance of the day.

Other than that, though, it's a wonderful world. Go Junhwan Cha!

You did not really answer my question but anyway.... yes, people have the responsibility to say right from wrong. And I say having Rusfed high-ranking officials and their immediate family members as the tech controller and a judge in Sochi Olympics Women competition was a screaming conflict of interest which should not have been allowed to happen in any civilised competition, forget OGs. TES of the competitors has nothing to do with it. It is simply wrong and it gives the impression ISU does not really care about unbiased scoring at all. Otherwise, they would have adopted rules eliminating such situations,. They haven't. That's it. Anyone is allowed to suppose this is only a tip of an iceberg as regards the conflicts of interest and unbiased vs biased or corrupted scoring because this is the way it usually works. You can read about it in any anti-corruption manual. That's how FS gained its "rigged judging" reputation. Sorry for being frank about it but I just got tired of pretending there is no problem here. There is. Huge and obvious as an elephant in the room.

 

[Mathman]

You did not really answer my question but anyway....

What was the question? Do I think that the New York Times should stop stirring the pot about the Olympic Team Medals. Yeah, I kind of do. I would prefer for the newspaper to wait until they have some actual news to report instead of just waxing indignant.

yes, people have the responsibility to say right from wrong. And I say having Rusfed high-ranking officials and their immediate family members as the tech controller and a judge in Sochi Olympics Women competition was a screaming conflict of interest which should not have been allowed to happen in any civilised competition, forget OGs. TES of the competitors has nothing to do with it. It is simply wrong and it gives the impression ISU does not really care about unbiased scoring at all. Otherwise, they would have adopted rules eliminating such situations,. They haven't. That's it. Anyone is allowed to suppose this is only a tip of an iceberg as regards the conflicts of interest and unbiased vs biased or corrupted scoring because this is the way it usually works. You can read about it in any anti-corruption manual. That's how FS gained its "rigged judging" reputation. Sorry for being frank about but I just got tired of pretending there is no problem here. There is. Huge and obvious as an elephant in the room.

The ISU does have various conflict of interest rules in place. A couple of years ago they disciplined a referee at a low level contest for allowing her sister to be one of the judges. (As I recall the accused offered the defense, "There wasn't anybody else.")

Too many chummy Russians in the mix at Sochi? I'll consult my anti-corruption manuel, but yeah, that's not a good look for the ISU. They should bend over backward to make sure that things like that don't happen. Everybody wants fair and unbiased judging. No argument there.

 

[Magill]

What was the question? Do I think that the New York Times should stop stirring the pot about the Olympic Team Medals. Yeah, I kind of do. I would prefer for the newspaper to wait until they have some actual news to report instead of just waxing indignant.

The ISU does have various conflict of interest rules in place. A couple of years ago they disciplined a referee at a low level contest for allowing her sister to be one of the judges. (As I recall the accused offered the defense, "There wasn't anybody else.")

Too many chummy Russians in the mix at Sochi? I'll consult my anti-corruption manuel, but yeah, that's not a good look for the ISU. They should bend over backward to make sure that things like that don't happen. Everybody wants fair and unbiased judging. No argument there.

Funny though... they disciplined a referee at a low level contest but were fine with much more high profile case at the Olympics? No one else was available for Sochi? Right...
But it goes along with my impression that some school-level competitions take much more effort and give much more attention to achieving fair and unbiased judging that this olympic sport seemingly does...

 

[Mathman]

OK, OK. You are very angry about this. I am only moderately angry. Can we just leave at that?

 

[Magill]

OK, OK. You are very angry about this. I am only moderately angry. Can we just leave at that?

OK. OK. I am not angry at all, why should I be angry about it? I simply think it is important. But we can leave the Sochi case here.

 

[Magill]

Still, as we discuss national scoring bias, allowing high ranking fed officials to be on technical and judging panels for any competition should be out of the question as this is simply inappropriate. No one else to sit on the panel? But isn't it the feds, ISU and the like's responsibility to provide training to judges, referees, technical specialists etc. and make sure they are available for comps? Maybe it would be worth it to think about it at the point when they plan training and recruit trainees to make sure people who are trained are not in the conflict of interest to start with? And make it a rule that anyone accepting employment from the federation has their authorization to sit on panels suspended on the conflict of interest basis, at least for international competitions where national bias is much more relevant? And expect everyone to sign a "no conflict of interest statement" before any comp they get involved with? Better prevent than punish, better safe than sorry, I'd say.

 

[Andrea82]

Still, as we discuss national scoring bias, allowing high ranking fed officials to be on technical and judging panels for any competition should be out of the question as this is simply inappropriate. No one else to sit on the panel? But isn't it the feds, ISU and the like's responsibility to provide training to judges, referees, technical specialists etc. and make sure they are available for comps? Maybe it would be worth it to think about it at the point when they plan training and recruit trainees to make sure people who are trained are not in the conflict of interest to start with? And make it a rule that anyone accepting employment from the federation has their authorization to sit on panels suspended on the conflict of interest basis, at least for international competitions where national bias is much more relevant? And expect everyone to sign a "no conflict of interest statement" before any comp they get involved with? Better prevent than punish, better safe than sorry, I'd say.

The Code of Ethics was amended after 2018 Olympics (Communication 2265 of 2019 ) and again this summer (Communication 2589).
Now


1.5 ISU Member Presidents, Vice-Presidents, Directors General, General Secretaries, CEOs, Executive Directors, Sport Directors or equivalent, shall not serve as a member of the Technical Panel or Referee at any ISU Championships, any ISU Senior Grand Prix event, ISU Grand Prix Final Junior and Senior, Winter Youth Olympic Games, or Olympic Winter Games during the entire time of his or her elected/appointed period of service in the respective above-mentioned ISU Member function.

2.2 ISU Member Presidents, Vice-Presidents, Directors General, General Secretaries, CEOs, Executive Directors, Sport Directors or equivalent, shall not officiate as a Judge at any ISU Championships, any ISU Senior Grand Prix event, ISU Grand Prix Final Junior and Senior, Winter Youth Olympic Games, or Olympic Winter Games during the entire time of his or her elected/appointed period of service.

The recent changes were related to point 2.2. They added "Vice-Presidents, Directors General, General Secretaries, CEOs, Executive Directors, Sport Directors or equivalent" part.

 

[Magill]

The Code of Ethics was amended after 2018 Olympics (Communication 2265 of 2019 ) and again this summer (Communication 2589).
Now


1.5 ISU Member Presidents, Vice-Presidents, Directors General, General Secretaries, CEOs, Executive Directors, Sport Directors or equivalent, shall not serve as a member of the Technical Panel or Referee at any ISU Championships, any ISU Senior Grand Prix event, ISU Grand Prix Final Junior and Senior, Winter Youth Olympic Games, or Olympic Winter Games during the entire time of his or her elected/appointed period of service in the respective above-mentioned ISU Member function.

2.2 ISU Member Presidents, Vice-Presidents, Directors General, General Secretaries, CEOs, Executive Directors, Sport Directors or equivalent, shall not officiate as a Judge at any ISU Championships, any ISU Senior Grand Prix event, ISU Grand Prix Final Junior and Senior, Winter Youth Olympic Games, or Olympic Winter Games during the entire time of his or her elected/appointed period of service.

The recent changes were related to point 2.2. They added "Vice-Presidents, Directors General, General Secretaries, CEOs, Executive Directors, Sport Directors or equivalent" part.

Thank you, this is great info. So I can see some lessons were learnt. But, still, are you aware if members of their immediate families have been also excluded on the basis of the conflict of interest? Cause this was another very valid point of heavy criticism towards the Sochi panel.
I guess not as this would probably come under the same bullet points so it still remains to be done to meet some basic standards of CoI transparency.... hopefully the next time they make revisions, they take care also of this issue, and hopefully this will happen sooner than later!

 

[Kittosuni]

The Code of Ethics was amended after 2018 Olympics (Communication 2265 of 2019 ) and again this summer (Communication 2589).
Now


1.5 ISU Member Presidents, Vice-Presidents, Directors General, General Secretaries, CEOs, Executive Directors, Sport Directors or equivalent, shall not serve as a member of the Technical Panel or Referee at any ISU Championships, any ISU Senior Grand Prix event, ISU Grand Prix Final Junior and Senior, Winter Youth Olympic Games, or Olympic Winter Games during the entire time of his or her elected/appointed period of service in the respective above-mentioned ISU Member function.

2.2 ISU Member Presidents, Vice-Presidents, Directors General, General Secretaries, CEOs, Executive Directors, Sport Directors or equivalent, shall not officiate as a Judge at any ISU Championships, any ISU Senior Grand Prix event, ISU Grand Prix Final Junior and Senior, Winter Youth Olympic Games, or Olympic Winter Games during the entire time of his or her elected/appointed period of service.

The recent changes were related to point 2.2. They added "Vice-Presidents, Directors General, General Secretaries, CEOs, Executive Directors, Sport Directors or equivalent" part.

This amendment of the Code of Ethics was to specifically address the perceived bias and conflict of interest of then sititng Skate Canada President Leanna Caron in the Ice Dance competition at the 2018 Olympics towards her Canadian countrymen Virtue/Moir and against Papadakis/Cizeron.

Since sitting as a judge while being the President that time was technically not against the rule, she was not punished although common sense will tell you that it was a massive conflict of interest. She sat as a judge on both segments and scored Virtue/Moir against Papadakis/Cizeron higher than the average of the other judges in the panel. If Caron's score for V/M would have been aligned with with the average from all the judges then Papadakis/Cizeron would have won the Olympics by 0.39

Although the biggest judge-skater country boost came from the men's side with the American judge giving both Chen and Rippon a whopping 11+ points above the average.

The only thing that this amendment addressed is the look of potential conflict of interest witth officials sittng as judges but did not addressed the root of the problem which is the rampant judge-skater country boost. The judge-skater country boost have been happening and will continue to happen since figure skating is a subjective sport.

 

[Mathman]

Although the biggest judge-skater country boost came from the men's side with the American judge giving both Chen and Rippon a whopping 11+ points above the average.

I am not surprised to hear this. Adam Rippon was an example of a skater who was highly regarded at home, but not so much internationally. Nathan Chen always provoked arguments about whether or not his his program components were of the first rank, although no one could deny his quads.

As for Virtue and Moir, the interesting thing to me is that at the time no eyebrows were raised about the scoring. I think that people just figured, "What a shame that the French team suffered that setback in the short dance, just when they were poised for ice dance greatness. Oh well, that's sport."

 

[4everchan]

I am not surprised to hear this. Adam Rippon was an example of a skater who was highly regarded at home, but not so much internationally. Nathan Chen always provoked arguments about whether or not his his program components were of the first rank, although no one could deny his quads.

As for Virtue and Moir, the interesting thing to me is that at the time no eyebrows were raised about the scoring. I think that people just figured, "What a shame that the French team suffered that setback in the short dance, just when they were poised for ice dance greatness. Oh well, that's sport."

Was there a French Judge present ? How did they score the event ? Did their score advantaged their skaters in a similar fashion that the score of the Canadian judge did for VM ? The president of the federation being also a judge shouldn't necessarily mean that the judging was poor. I would believe that there is more of an appearance of a conflict of interest, rather than a direct conflict of interest. Like it or not, there are few qualified individuals in this sport and many of them wear many hats. Leanna Caron started her board duties for Skate Canada in 2008. She was then elected as president in 2013. The ISU and the international skating community at large had plenty of time to flag the conflict of interest, yet they never did. I also would be curious to find out if other presidents who are also ISU judges have served in ISU championships/Olympics. I suspect Caron is not the only one. In any case, I am all fine with making rules to avoid as many biases as possible but let's not fool anyone here. Leanna is no Didier.

Finally, regarding your last paragraph : it was a close event. Of course, I am biased too but I thought that VM should even have won the free dance. I didn't think much of the French's programs in 2018. They were not the skaters yet that they became in 2022 with their exquisite Fauré masterpiece of a free dance. They lack a bit of rhythmic sharpness for me, despite of all their other qualities. Virtue and Moir had it all. In some ways, other judges may have marked this event even more in favour of Virtue and Moir, just as the opposite may have happened too. So, that's why I believe fans didn't scream wolf at this one because it could have always gone either way and both teams skated well in the Free Dance, but indeed, the damage had been done in the RD and that has nothing to do with Leanna Caron.

In some ways, there were more of an uproar when Davis and White won in Sochi. Petri Kokko even went online to say that the best finnstep was definitely VM's. If we go back to 2010, there was also a huge uproar but not so much in the scoring of ice dance but in the very problematic cultural appropriation OD presented by Dominina/Shabalin (corrected). Considering other problematic judging or scandals with skating at the Olympics, Leanna Caron's participation as a judge is probably one of the lesser evils to have graced the sport.

 

[Jumping_Bean]

Was there a French Judge present?

Only in the Short Dance, no French judge scored the Free.

How did they score the event ? Did their score advantaged their skaters in a similar fashion that the score of the Canadian judge did for VM ?

They scored P/C almost exactly the same as the average of the panel (+0.17), but scored V/M a bit lower than the rest of the panel (-2.17), so the difference would be 2.34 from the French judge in favour of P/C.

The Canadian judge gave V/M a higher score by 1.43 and P/C a lower score by 3.23 points, i.e. 4.66 in favour of V/M in the SD. In the FD, the difference of the Canadian judge's TSS was 6.25 in favour of V/M.

I'd say neither of these are the biggest differences I've seen in favour of their own country (though looking at Ms Caron's scores for W/P and G/P, maybe it is actually more than I realised on her part (over 11 pts more for W/P than the actual event score, she would have put them in 3rd overall) ), but Canada definitely had the advantage here when it came to a helpful judge.