Scott Moir says its a piss off

[ImaginaryPogue]

To be fair, he seems opposed to be giving out tens for stuff the needs improvement in general and the fact that the top two teams are hugely distant from the rest of the field. He also said that the Shibs deserves PCS in the fours, which I don't agree with but is food for thought.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Nice go at it Doris, but when all is said, the bottomline is each judge has his opinion of how the skaters performed those elelements to the music and not enrapturered in showing their sexiness. One could show a protective role among siblings, but it's only us who insist that the role should be romantic Still others like me, just only want to see how good the couple are, at dancing a la Astaire and Rogers. It is also part Entertainment which have no base values except opinions,

 

[dorispulaski]

If they are making me really feel the music, I could care less, but not much, about their relationship I'm on my feet clapping for them. Both teams can do that to me, in their different ways.

I'm not sure whether he's calling for 4's for the Shibs? Perhaps there is a translation issue?. Perhaps 4th place behind P&B which were his team last year? I've seen the Shibs live at US nationals last year, and they really drew in the audience, and garnered 2 huge standing ovations. 4 is ridiculous for them.

 

[clairecloutier]

Over at FSU, there's an article (original; translation) in which Scott's ego is stroked some more.

Great article, thanks for sharing it! I love how honest and opinionated the Russian coaches are. It gives you some insight into how skating "insiders" see the sport.

It's interesting how Davis/White get criticized so much for a lack of personal connection. I don't always agree with this . . . I think they've had a strong connection in many programs, for example, Samson & Delilah and their Billie Jean exhibition number. However, I have to admit they don't really look at each other much in this year's programs. I wonder why they don't just incorporate more moments of direct eye contact. They get criticized about this so much, and it seems like a relatively easy thing to fix.

 

[CassAgain]

Maybe Charlie should go back to wearing a sticker on his forehead.

By the time they danced at World's last year, I thought Charlie and Meryl were doing an excellent job with relating to each other via the Tango.

 

[Bluebonnet]

All I can say is that I love both pairs. D&W's FD won me over this time. But V&M has always been demonstrating their strength on unison where D&W are lacking.

 

[NorthernDancers]

Well, he says both teams deserve their marks...he likes V&M better, and he believes that ice dance should always be about the relationship between a man and a woman.

However, ice dance can also be defined as the relationship between 2 people and the music, I think. If we were to rule out of ice dance programs that were not about the relationship between a man and a woman, we would lose Torvill & Dean's Barnum, and the Duchesnays Missing, Savage Rites, and Reflections programs, for example. I'd rather have a broader definition, to allow a wider variety of programs, but he clearly does not agree with me.

And for him to get his wish, and have this reflected in the scores, the rules would need significant revision.

Of course, no where in the TES rules is it enshrined that free dances must only be about sex on ice. And in the PCS rules, it should only affect (possibly) 2 components:

In I&T, there is one bullet of several that might deal with this, and even then it would seem to only have an effect if the music is calling for a relationship and there isn't one (W&P's FD without a relationship wouldn't work, for example). D&W's tango last year would not deserve 10's, IMO, for this component. In a tango, there should be a relationship. Some judges did give them a 10 for this one, and I wouldn't, I think. However a grand ball waltz and polka does not require more of a relationship than they bring to it this year, and I don't think I'd dock them half a point for that item this year. The program is getting standing ovations, and it works.



To qualify for a mark of between 9.00 and 10.00 in Interpretation and Timing, you should





And in Performance & Execution



To qualify for a mark between 9.00 and 10.00 in Performance and Execution, you need

Thanks for this, Doris! Given the above criteria, I do think in these 2 items at least, Virtue/Moir and Davis/White are in a league of their own, with the definite nod to Virtue/Moir. That is why I think what Virtue/Moir are doing in FF with all the little details, and the matching lines, and the connection and the whole package is above anything else. They do all of this so effortlessly, and exceed this criteria so well, some fail to realize just how difficult it really is. It is truly amazing. When I watch the replays, I see new things in it every time. Davis/White seem to rely more on their speed and power. I absolutely love their high rotational lift. It's very impressive, and there are some great highlights. I really enjoy watching them. But when it comes to the criteria as noted above by Doris, they don't have this in the same way as Virtue/Moir.

 

[KKonas]

As always Doris brings some objectivity to the discussion, but people will interpret things differently, slanting it to whatever they like/prefer. International judges attend seminars to reinforce the rules but still they do have personal preferences too, however they are also aware they have to be somewhat in line with the Referee or risk being an "anomolie."

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

If they are making me really feel the music, I could care less, but not much, about their relationship I'm on my feet clapping for them. Both teams can do that to me, in their different ways.

I'm not sure whether he's calling for 4's for the Shibs? Perhaps there is a translation issue?. Perhaps 4th place behind P&B which were his team last year? I've seen the Shibs live at US nationals last year, and they really drew in the audience, and garnered 2 huge standing ovations. 4 is ridiculous for them.

1. I tend to agree with you doris - if they make me feel the music, then brava. Of course, D/W rarely do this, imo, whereas all those dances you mentioned definitely do.

2. I thought that at first, doris, but the way he criticizes them and praises W/P, it doesn't make sense that he thinks the Shibs should be ahead of W/P on PCS (recalling that he explicitly states that ice dance should look to V/M and W/P as models, and recalling that the Shibs placed last in both segments on PCS). If you read the early part of the translation, when talking about D/W and V/M's "10s" - the translation cites it as "10th." But fours is less than what the AVERAGE juniors are getting - I mean, middle of the pack JGP dancers. So while that does go along with his idea that judges are scoring PCS too high (though I'd toss on Bobrova/Soloviev before Shibs on that pile), it makes me suspect he doesn't quite understand PCS. On the other hand, if an ice dance coach and two time Olympic medalist guy doesn't understand PCS, you've gotta wonder.

3. More to the point re: Scott's ego, I'd argue that it's comments like these that would cause anyone to buy into their own hype, frankly.

4. The most interesting part of the article for me is once again, I/K are getting criticized for their work ethic. Tarasova did this at the beginning of last season. Zhulin does it after they left him. Tarasova does it at the beginning of this season. As does Staviski. Zhulin does it again. I'm wondering - if I/K flounder again, does the Russian Fed bite the bullet and ship them to Shpilband/Zoueva (one thing you can't say about their teams is that they are lazy/not hard workers) or do they just pump up the volume on Bobrova/Soloviev and hope that it'll be enough for them to win bronze in Sochi?

5. KKonas, can you read Zhulins' translated comments and discuss what way the V/M fans are slanting it? Or are you arguing that as a V/M fan, Zhulin is slanting what he feels PCS should be.

 

[macy]

just seeing this article now... not classy whatsoever. quite immature and arrogant. for some reason i've never been a fan of V/M, to me they just don't have the same spark as D/W. D/W are more exciting to watch to me. i've always gotten this vibe from V/M that they think they always deserve to win and are the best all the time. are the teams even friends off the ice?

 

[WeakAnkles]

I think Scott Moir should ask himself some very tough questions: has his team *improved* since their amazing Olympic performances? have D/W improved as artistic skaters?

My answers? No. Yes.

The Mahler program was a masterpiece of ice dancing, certainly one of the most complete and ambitious FDs in the history of the sport. Yes, I would rank it right alongside Bolero (which is always the standard-bearer of the great FD--and if you saw what other teams at the time were doing, you would really appreciate how great that program was, how groundbreaking). But since then? I thought the first third of last year's FD was brilliant. To take a dance style that would seem to be a poor fit for the particular demands of *skating* (the same way that Bourne and Kraatz took a primarily vertical dance like Irish step dancing in their Riverdance program and translated it to the primarily horizontal medium of ice skating/dancing) and make it work: wonderful. But the second two-thirds of that program weren't nearly as compelling or as polished as the first section. And maybe it's me, but I don't think it translates particularly well to the SD--again, wonderful wonderful wonderful in parts, but too many music cuts that don't flow seamlessly. It's like the difference in film editing between a dissolve and a cut. And the FF long? Well, it's cute. It's entertaining. It's also--for me at least--pretty forgettable. There is not a single section of that dance that I can instantly recall the same way I do the goose or the circular twizzles. Or the emotionality of the Mahler or the attack and verve of the flamenco OD (though I still prefer D/W's Bollywood).

Voir are in a bit of an artistic bind. How many gooey-ooey soft, romantic dances of wistful longing can one team do over their lifetime? And I can understand the desire to try different styles. Kudos for that impulse. But I don't think the mimicry of FF is in any way, shape or form an artistic advance for them.

Lots of people with far more technical knowledge have already pointed out exactly how D/W have improved artistically. I'm just going to add two things I don't think anyone has mentioned yet. First, Charlie has (finally!) learned to dance. He has loosened up tremendously and--all credit here to last year's tango--learned to temper his power and speed to the dance. Just look, for example, at how he got into position for the SD at this year's GPF. And because he has learned to shape that power and speed, it allows Meryl more room to shine (I thought her breakthrough was the Bollywood dance--sorry all you Samson and Delilah fans out there). The second thing is that they and Zoueva did something very very smart: they applied their natural attack and showmanship to a very traditional dance form, and in that manner invigorated it (yes, artistically). That's a big Broadway waltz. It may not be in a style that you personally find appealing, but I think the way it channels and harnesses D/W's strengths is brilliant.

And I think Scott Moir will be in trouble if he doesn't recognize that improvement. Or seek to stretch artistically in a way that isn't, as someone on another thread very perceptively pointed out, a charade.

 

[Apple Pi]

Something very interesting happened between the 08-09 and 09-10 season: Meryl became fierce. You can see it just in how she styled herself: the arch of her eyebrows, etc. I have been curious for a while what brought this on, if it was the loss at Worlds 2009 or something else.

I must agree with the poster above:

I too have not seen improvements really from V/M since the Olympics, even in ways that her injury would not affect.

D/W on the other hand are still growing - and at a rapid pace. That is the scariest thing of all.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

I think Scott Moir should ask himself some very tough questions: has his team *improved* since their amazing Olympic performances? have D/W improved as artistic skaters?

My answers? No. Yes.

The Mahler program was a masterpiece of ice dancing, certainly one of the most complete and ambitious FDs in the history of the sport. Yes, I would rank it right alongside Bolero (which is always the standard-bearer of the great FD--and if you saw what other teams at the time were doing, you would really appreciate how great that program was, how groundbreaking). But since then? I thought the first third of last year's FD was brilliant. To take a dance style that would seem to be a poor fit for the particular demands of *skating* (the same way that Bourne and Kraatz took a primarily vertical dance like Irish step dancing in their Riverdance program and translated it to the primarily horizontal medium of ice skating/dancing) and make it work: wonderful. But the second two-thirds of that program weren't nearly as compelling or as polished as the first section. And maybe it's me, but I don't think it translates particularly well to the SD--again, wonderful wonderful wonderful in parts, but too many music cuts that don't flow seamlessly. It's like the difference in film editing between a dissolve and a cut. And the FF long? Well, it's cute. It's entertaining. It's also--for me at least--pretty forgettable. There is not a single section of that dance that I can instantly recall the same way I do the goose or the circular twizzles. Or the emotionality of the Mahler or the attack and verve of the flamenco OD (though I still prefer D/W's Bollywood).

Voir are in a bit of an artistic bind. How many gooey-ooey soft, romantic dances of wistful longing can one team do over their lifetime? And I can understand the desire to try different styles. Kudos for that impulse. But I don't think the mimicry of FF is in any way, shape or form an artistic advance for them.

Lots of people with far more technical knowledge have already pointed out exactly how D/W have improved artistically. I'm just going to add two things I don't think anyone has mentioned yet. First, Charlie has (finally!) learned to dance. He has loosened up tremendously and--all credit here to last year's tango--learned to temper his power and speed to the dance. Just look, for example, at how he got into position for the SD at this year's GPF. And because he has learned to shape that power and speed, it allows Meryl more room to shine (I thought her breakthrough was the Bollywood dance--sorry all you Samson and Delilah fans out there). The second thing is that they and Zoueva did something very very smart: they applied their natural attack and showmanship to a very traditional dance form, and in that manner invigorated it (yes, artistically). That's a big Broadway waltz. It may not be in a style that you personally find appealing, but I think the way it channels and harnesses D/W's strengths is brilliant.

And I think Scott Moir will be in trouble if he doesn't recognize that improvement. Or seek to stretch artistically in a way that isn't, as someone on another thread very perceptively pointed out, a charade.

Great post. I disagree with most of it, but still, great post.

 

[Spun Silver]

If this were another board I'd just hit the "great post" button but here: fabulous analysis. And I agree with you! There's something about the Fledermaus FD that feels modern and updated while also traditional ... positively Balanchinian.

 

[Mrs. P]

I get the feeling that not only did D/W grow while V/M was away, they actually made decisions that took advantage of that fact. It's clear that D/W knew they had a big opportunity here — to grow and adjust without the pressure of their rivals. That's not to say they wouldn't have chosen to skate to their Tango FD if V/M was not around -- but you got the sense that they felt more free to experiment because they didn't have to play catch up with their rival or think how they could win.

When you look at the choreography between NHK Trophy (their first GP) and Worlds -- it's amazing the amount of tweaking this dance got -- it was practically a new dance by the time Worlds came around.

And as many posters pointed out, I'm not sure if you would have had the FD we see from D/W today if D/W did not seize that opportunity last season. After all, everyone was impressed that Die Fiedermaus came in about a month...but when you think about it, they practically redid the choreo of the Tango FD in about the same period of time! (Between Skate America and GPF, right?)

The unfortunate part of V/M this year is that they do not have the same luxury. They cannot count on being miles ahead on D/W while they determine their next artistic breakthrough.

 

[prettykeys]

Semi-off-topic, but.

I don't like T/D's Bolero.

There, I said it. I can watch other skaters from the older era and understand why they are still greatly respected and loved; many of them have skills that modern-day skaters lack or have regressed on. e.g. Cecilia Colledge, Janet Lynn, Trixie Schuba, Dick Button, John Curry, G/G. But, Bolero does absolutely nothing for me.

 

[jcoates]

Brilliant observations WeakAnkles. I wholeheartedly agree and could not have written it better. V/M and D/W are still being judged by their reputations or natural talents by many fans rather than by their performance.

 

[clairecloutier]

Interesting post WeakAnkles. I agree with much of it. I do feel that Davis/White have made great strides artistically the last couple years. (Although honestly, I've always found their programs wonderful and their artistic reach ambitious.) Meanwhile, Virtue/Moir's continued growth has been rather hampered by her injury and time away from training. And I do agree (and have said before) that V/M have relied overmuch in their career on winsome/poignant romantic themes. This year's Funny Face LP offers a different variation on the theme--it's more playful & charming--but is still mostly in that genre.

Does anyone else here read Jackie Wong's Examiner figure skating blog? He just posted an article arguing somewhat the opposite of what you said: http://www.examiner.com/figure-skat...rtue-and-moir-acceleration-czisny-skates-hurt. He feels that V/M's free dance at the GPF was better than D/W's and may swing the momentum back to V/M. However he doesn't really explain in detail why he feels that way.

 

[Mrs. P]

Interesting post WeakAnkles. I agree with much of it. I do feel that Davis/White have made great strides artistically the last couple years. (Although honestly, I've always found their programs wonderful and their artistic reach ambitious.) Meanwhile, Virtue/Moir's continued growth has been rather hampered by her injury and time away from training. And I do agree (and have said before) that V/M have relied overmuch in their career on winsome/poignant romantic themes. This year's Funny Face LP offers a different variation on the theme--it's more playful & charming--but is still mostly in that genre.

Does anyone else here read Jackie Wong's Examiner figure skating blog? He just posted an article arguing somewhat the opposite of what you said: http://www.examiner.com/figure-skat...rtue-and-moir-acceleration-czisny-skates-hurt. He feels that V/M's free dance at the GPF was better than D/W's and may swing the momentum back to V/M. However he doesn't really explain in detail why he feels that way.

Just read it. I'm not sure if I agree. If anything, the judges seem to indicate that it's close and it's really going to come down to the smallest detail (levels, goe and a few extra tenths on PCS). Jackie neglected to mention that D/W got a level 3 on one element while V/M got level 4s in the FD. That means that D/W have a little more room to to score higher. And I think V/M also have room to score in their SD, giving they missed some levels there.

Really I think it's anyone game at this point.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

I think it's basically in Scott's comments. There was some thought that V/M had already ceded the World title to D/W at Skate Canada (see Spun Silver or blackswanphoto's comments in that thread to see what I mean), but they skated better than they ever have before, and losing basically lit a massive fire underneath them. If they really attack the SD and get the levels, their natural chemistry and general performance quality would be in evidence and probably get them the marks. However, the biggest hindrance (imo) is the choreography. I actually don't mind the three part structure and, as usual, there are some moments that are so sublime (the way the descending chords of "Temptation" matches the intro to the second rhumba step sequence, the flagrant lust of the head-jerk, the closing pose and Tessa's expression) that you'd think the music and choreography were created with the other in mind. On the other hand, the opening is just okay (kinda hot) and slowing down "Hip-Hip, chin-chin"..... well, does anyone think that works?

V/M have a tremendous connection on the ice, and any program they do is gonna rely on that - even Pink Floyd which was more intellectual than emotional in the end. I'd argue that even within that genre, there's enough variation to make it interesting (the romantic trio of "Valse Triste," "Umbrellas of Cherbourg" and "Mahler" are quite different from each other). And I think Funny Face works as step in a different direction. Some call it charades and mimicry, I'll call it play and embodiment. I have to admit that I do hope they add more to FF, though. The entry to the "S'Wonderful" sequence rather bugs me (the rapid skating motions before the light twirls) and I'd love it if they pushed the slink in the jazz section a little more.

The biggest strides I see from D/W have been largely technical, but I can't get over how much more naturally they seem to move then before (it's particularly true when you compare it to the Tango, which never reached that level, imo). I actually think they have the better SD between the two (it's more cohesive) and they really have worked on their performance/projection. What I want to see more is connection to each other. I thnk I could watch one or the other and see no difference then when I watch both (this is true in both dances, but here it's more noticeable). Artisticallly.... okay - I've actually seen Die Fledermaus more times than I've seen Funny Face (mainly because I wanted to watch that first rotational lift over and over again), but when I imagine the dance, I can't place it with the music. Now, I'm not as familiar musically with the former as I am with the latter, but there's no difference in D/W's waltz with or without music.