"SC's season of change" article on USFSA
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shine said:
Cohen was a straight A student, and received a presidential award for academic excellence in 1999.
What a lot of great, interesting responses! Mathman, although I somewhat agree with you that for many/most people, my challenge is "impossible," and that your statement, "I think that the feelings we have about race, with which we pre-judge everyone we meet, are so deeply ingrained that we can't really play the what-if game with honesty" has a great deal of truth in it, I think it's worth it for those who are interested to ask themselves, "Would I feel different about certain skaters is they were a different race and/or nationality?" I think if we are able to at least try to be honest with ourselves about these issues, we gain something, if only for ourselves and if only temporarily. IMO, however, the only way to really face our prejudices is when we have to live and/or work with many other races.
To add my butt in that boiling water, I've been taking my own challenge and yes, I do believe I would see skaters differently if they were of a different race and/or nationality. For example, if Yoshie Onda, whom I love, were American, I think my perception of her would have less of the general perception "Asians work hard and say little" and more of "Another American jumping bean who just won't listen to her coach about presentation because she thinks jumps are the ticket to victory."
I won't go on with examples because, as I said, I feel this is something people need only ask themselves. Also, I'm sure I would offend somebody, if not many!
But rather than end on that note, I do hope people will ask themselves about why they feel the way they do about certain skaters and whether their race, ethnicity, or nationality affects it. I know Irina was the GS whipping skater until she got sick--remember about two and a half years ago the "Cohen, Lipinski, Slutskaya" fans, ie CLS, who were "constantly" attacking Michelle? Yeah, ha ha, that's so true, ha ha! God forbid someone be a fan of any or all of those three (all Caucasian) AND Michelle. The question really comes down to "What makes people hate a skater?" Is it really just the skater's behavior, which as others have pointed out, we only get glimpses of through the media? Or are there presumptions about race etc. that affect how we feel? I think it's an important question to ask ourselves. Nobody is going to like every skater, just as we don't like all people. But are we missing the enjoyment of a skater because of irrational prejudices that have nothing to do with who that skater really is? Do we put too much emphasis on "lady" skaters--as Pitchka noted, the very moniker "lady" says so much--being sweet and demure? Do we see the ones we like as sweet and demure if they are Asian whether they are or not? Do we see Caucasian skaters from certain countries as "robotic," smug, or aggressive when they are no different, essentially, from Asian skaters?
Finally, to touch upon a few more general notes from the documentaries and articles of recent weeks, there is a group of Asian American women in Chicago who have formed a jazz quintet because they were so tired of the preconceived ideas of many/most that all Asian women "are good at playing the violin." These women are playing be-bop on bass, piano, sax, trumpet, and drums. Just an interesting anecdote of what some people are doing to address the racism that has been knitted into the fabric of our culture.
Rgirl
PS On the crucial "Harry Potter" issue: Sasha is 19. Anybody at 19 is not what I would call a "mature adult." IIRC, when Michelle was promoting reading and was about 19 or 20, she listed a "children's/young adult" book as being her favorite (sorry, can't recall the title). But, hmm, interesting that nobody on GS critisized Michelle for her choice. There are some Judy Blume books that I think explore more mature issues and are better written than any book, fiction or nonfiction, on the current New York Times Bestseller list. I think VIETgrlTerifa stated why "Harry Potter" is much more than some kid's book, for example, "Goodnight, Moon." For me, Sasha's choice shows that she still embraces the imaginative and magical, but also appreciates a book with some serious issues and the structure of a "real book." I say, "Good choice."
Can you imagine how a 19-year-old Rgirl, had she been a world level skater (in some alternative universe) had been asked what her favorite book was and said, "Lolita"? Yeah, I'd be REAL popular
To add my butt in that boiling water, I've been taking my own challenge and yes, I do believe I would see skaters differently if they were of a different race and/or nationality. For example, if Yoshie Onda, whom I love, were American, I think my perception of her would have less of the general perception "Asians work hard and say little" and more of "Another American jumping bean who just won't listen to her coach about presentation because she thinks jumps are the ticket to victory."
I won't go on with examples because, as I said, I feel this is something people need only ask themselves. Also, I'm sure I would offend somebody, if not many!
But rather than end on that note, I do hope people will ask themselves about why they feel the way they do about certain skaters and whether their race, ethnicity, or nationality affects it. I know Irina was the GS whipping skater until she got sick--remember about two and a half years ago the "Cohen, Lipinski, Slutskaya" fans, ie CLS, who were "constantly" attacking Michelle? Yeah, ha ha, that's so true, ha ha! God forbid someone be a fan of any or all of those three (all Caucasian) AND Michelle. The question really comes down to "What makes people hate a skater?" Is it really just the skater's behavior, which as others have pointed out, we only get glimpses of through the media? Or are there presumptions about race etc. that affect how we feel? I think it's an important question to ask ourselves. Nobody is going to like every skater, just as we don't like all people. But are we missing the enjoyment of a skater because of irrational prejudices that have nothing to do with who that skater really is? Do we put too much emphasis on "lady" skaters--as Pitchka noted, the very moniker "lady" says so much--being sweet and demure? Do we see the ones we like as sweet and demure if they are Asian whether they are or not? Do we see Caucasian skaters from certain countries as "robotic," smug, or aggressive when they are no different, essentially, from Asian skaters?
Finally, to touch upon a few more general notes from the documentaries and articles of recent weeks, there is a group of Asian American women in Chicago who have formed a jazz quintet because they were so tired of the preconceived ideas of many/most that all Asian women "are good at playing the violin." These women are playing be-bop on bass, piano, sax, trumpet, and drums. Just an interesting anecdote of what some people are doing to address the racism that has been knitted into the fabric of our culture.
Rgirl
PS On the crucial "Harry Potter" issue: Sasha is 19. Anybody at 19 is not what I would call a "mature adult." IIRC, when Michelle was promoting reading and was about 19 or 20, she listed a "children's/young adult" book as being her favorite (sorry, can't recall the title). But, hmm, interesting that nobody on GS critisized Michelle for her choice. There are some Judy Blume books that I think explore more mature issues and are better written than any book, fiction or nonfiction, on the current New York Times Bestseller list. I think VIETgrlTerifa stated why "Harry Potter" is much more than some kid's book, for example, "Goodnight, Moon." For me, Sasha's choice shows that she still embraces the imaginative and magical, but also appreciates a book with some serious issues and the structure of a "real book." I say, "Good choice."
Can you imagine how a 19-year-old Rgirl, had she been a world level skater (in some alternative universe) had been asked what her favorite book was and said, "Lolita"? Yeah, I'd be REAL popular
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registered said:
Is this the same Sasha Cohen that was interviewed just before Olympics '02 and stated she was going to pull a Lipinski? Her plan was to go in, win the gold, and retire?
The same Cohen that was hell bent on competing at Nationals '01, even with a back injury?
If that's not serious about skating, I really dont know what it is.
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shine said:
Except for answering your question about Cohen's academic education, probably not much.
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- Jul 11, 2003
Just a reminder that unsubstantiated remarks about prejudices and the use of steretyping is not what dialog is all about, and should be avoided on any Board and especially Golden Skate.
Sensitivity to a favorite skater can bring rash respnses to a perceived 'put down' where none was intended.
Sasha Cohen, a formidable skater, imo, has changed over the years and for the better not unlike many other skaters.
oesitz
Sensitivity to a favorite skater can bring rash respnses to a perceived 'put down' where none was intended.
Sasha Cohen, a formidable skater, imo, has changed over the years and for the better not unlike many other skaters.
oesitz
Just a question: Has anybody made unsubstantiated remarks about prejudices and the use to stereotyping on this thread? If so where?Joesitz said:
I'm not questioning your statement, I'm just wondering if your statement is a reminder that posters shouldn't do it or if it's about remarks people have already made on this thread? Just trying to clarify.
Rgirl
Question
Sasha said about MK
"...Skaters come and go, but she has always been there. She was there when I was 6, and she's there now..."
When Sasha was 6, Michelle was, what, 10, 11? Was Michelle already famous at 10? Michelle was "there" in the sense that she was alive and learning to skate, but was she somebody Sasha would have known about? She wasn't even with Frank then, was she?
Sasha said about MK
"...Skaters come and go, but she has always been there. She was there when I was 6, and she's there now..."
When Sasha was 6, Michelle was, what, 10, 11? Was Michelle already famous at 10? Michelle was "there" in the sense that she was alive and learning to skate, but was she somebody Sasha would have known about? She wasn't even with Frank then, was she?
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VIETgrlTerifa said:
yet another reason why I'm glad I never was forced (which many high school classes here are now) to read the stupid books... sloppy writing annoys me... editors should catch mistakes, and writers should PROOF READ SEVERAL TIMES.
Re: Question
Yes, she could have very well known of Michelle and her skating before Michelle even made it out of a local club competition. They're both from Southern California-right? And lot of the skaters-even at the lower levels-juvenile etc know of other skaters from the regions from hearing about them from other club parents/skaters or from seeing them at local competitions.
XPEG said:
Yes, she could have very well known of Michelle and her skating before Michelle even made it out of a local club competition. They're both from Southern California-right? And lot of the skaters-even at the lower levels-juvenile etc know of other skaters from the regions from hearing about them from other club parents/skaters or from seeing them at local competitions.
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- Aug 17, 2003
shine said:
Could you then provide an example on how else one could have answer your question on Cohen's academic progress (to your satisfaction)?
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- Jul 26, 2003
Tonichelle said:
Sorry off topic again...but Yes, I agree with that. There are some things that are might be annoying in the books, small mistakes, but you really don't care after reading the books...it's only when you analyze the book really close is when you catch these (what we HP fans call "flints").
I think the reason why JK makes some of these small mistakes is that she has the whole 7 part series developed and written down on endless notes, so she's always trying to figure out how to put things in that will be important in the next installment, and what was important in the last book that needs to be addressed in the current one, etc. Not really an excuse, but I think thats why she has some of these little mistakes...which is most likely a result of paying so much attention to detail.
P.S. I'm happy you didn't have to read it in school, but the HP books (any book) is better when you want to read them rather being forced to.
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- Jul 30, 2003
This is not particular to Sasha, all skaters do it, but sometimes I just have to
at the way they try to pass off pat answers as something meaningful, or even true.She was attempting the quad and the 3z/3t in her LPs 2 years ago. Why is this suddenly some new revelation expalining how she has changed this past season? Mark my words, she'll show up next year with the same tech content she's always had. She's been attempting 7 triple LPs since she came on the senior scene. “I learned that I can no longer be this pretty, delicate girl gliding across the ice,” my foot!
MK is no better. She's been using the "I know that I need to up the tech ante" line for almost a decade now! If you have nothing of interest to say but pat prescripted generic answers, stop doing so many interviews! JMHO.
Well, she isn't going to morph into a Miki Ando any day soon! Personally, I don't think she has the physical power to pull off a quad.
She hasn't even been able to do a clean 7-triple FS without making some sort of mistake. When she was trying 3/3s and 3/3 combinations, back in the 2002-2003 season, she was never able to land them successfully in competition, even though she often could pull them off in practice.
There was no way that Sasha was going to win Worlds this season because it simply was Shizuka's night. She isn't going to out-power the Japanese girls, and she'd be better off trying to figure out how to win using her own unique talents.
She hasn't even been able to do a clean 7-triple FS without making some sort of mistake. When she was trying 3/3s and 3/3 combinations, back in the 2002-2003 season, she was never able to land them successfully in competition, even though she often could pull them off in practice.
There was no way that Sasha was going to win Worlds this season because it simply was Shizuka's night. She isn't going to out-power the Japanese girls, and she'd be better off trying to figure out how to win using her own unique talents.
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- Jul 28, 2003
Hmmmm, that would exclude such writers as Dostoevsky and Steinbeck. Dostoevsky in one of his works (I don't remember where) wrote "A square table of an oval shape". Steinbeck in "Winter of Our Discontent" (my favorite of his works) has the female character have green eyes in one place, and brown in another. Would you rather not read them?Tonichelle said:
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- Jul 26, 2003
I think Sasha did do a 3/3 at 2003 Worlds. Maybe you're thinking of 2004 Worlds.
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