What if the process were similar to the selection of jury members? The national skating federations would have to approve unanimously of the appointment of any judge on the panel. Therefore, each federation can review the qualifications and judging history of any judge in consideration, and just one nay can ban a judge if he/she is supect. This will allow every skating federation to enter a competition knowing that it is a level playing field for their skaters.
Selection of judges
- Thread starter moyesii
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- Jun 21, 2003
Wow, what a concept. But the ISU would never go along. I don't think we would ever be able to seat a panel at all. First the USFSA, if they had the gumption, would object to all the judges that have been caught red-handed in the past. Then the Eastern Bloc would retaliate by kicking off all the North Americans. I can imagine all the deals going on to curry favor with the few remaining countries. (I read somewhere that Crete is a member in good standing of the ISU, even though it does not have a single ice skating rink.)
Actually, it would be interesting to see what the USFSA, never one to take a bold stand about anything, would do in such a system.
Mathman
Actually, it would be interesting to see what the USFSA, never one to take a bold stand about anything, would do in such a system.
Mathman
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2003
The ISU wants the judges to be hired and fired by them, and out of the control of the Federations. Right now, the ISU has little choice but to accept the nominations of the Federations. If Korytek and Balkov keep coming up, the ISU can't do anything about it. By their own bylaws. And since the Federations make up the ISU council and do the voting, they are unlikely to vote themselves out of power and control.
It's like NYC which send so much money to subsidize the rest of NY State that it has to levy huge a tax on itself to make up the difference, and which can't secede, because the rest of the state has controlling interest in the State Legislature and isn't about to give away its cash cow.
It's like NYC which send so much money to subsidize the rest of NY State that it has to levy huge a tax on itself to make up the difference, and which can't secede, because the rest of the state has controlling interest in the State Legislature and isn't about to give away its cash cow.
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- Jul 26, 2003
On what basis? He said/she said? The evidence that was very clear to the NA public wasn't nearly as clear in other parts of the world, especially when Senft turned off the tape recorder when she did.moyesii said:
I don't know whether the ISU used some parliamentary procedure or semantics to ram this through, or if it was in violation of its own statutes or if the spector of Rogge and the IOC. If statutory violation, I wonder why there wasn't a lawsuit.
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- Jul 26, 2003
You just reminded me that the Japanese Federation tried to block using CoP at NHK Trophy this year. I remember that they backed down, but I don't remember the exact reasoning for the original challenge, or why they gave in.mpal2 said:
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- Jul 27, 2003
moyesii said:
Exactly what did they do? What was their "fix"? The only thing that could be proved is that they communicated during the competition. What's not known is what exactly they were communicating. Besides this, there is no proof that they cheated, so they were only suspended for 2 years (reduced to one). Now, the suspension of Senft was totally different. She actually admitted to cheating, so I can perfectly understand her suspension, and I think she should be banned for life, but not the same for Balkov, since nothing was ever really proven against him, only accusations from Senft, whose past judging has been shown to be absolutely absurd (IMO anyway)I really don't understand you're point. "Unanimous" is almost impossible. I'm very content with the ISU approving judges. They are, afterall, the judging body of figure skating. I can't think of a more qualified organization to choose these judges.
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
thvudragon - Should I take it that you mean the only cause for suspension is if the presumed guilty party admits guilt? That any judge denying guilt will be exonerated of charges?
There was proof in the Pairs case. Your method of guilt was admittance which the French judge did. She also implicated the French and Russian Federations. Was that not proof enough to suspend them for life. Or is that because they are male and above sentencing? and why only the Head of the French Federation for a couple of years? Something is fishy here. Was the French judge not telling the truth when she implicated both Federations?
I do appreciate your desire for proof of accusations. I'm with you all the way on that. However, I do not put full faith and trust in the system (any system) where fraud, skulduggery, etc., can be
made and only proven by the guilty party's confession.
As to the ISU approving judges. I agree, who else can approve them? But they are not going to 'punish' anyone they have appoointed. That is the dilemna!
Joe
There was proof in the Pairs case. Your method of guilt was admittance which the French judge did. She also implicated the French and Russian Federations. Was that not proof enough to suspend them for life. Or is that because they are male and above sentencing? and why only the Head of the French Federation for a couple of years? Something is fishy here. Was the French judge not telling the truth when she implicated both Federations?
I do appreciate your desire for proof of accusations. I'm with you all the way on that. However, I do not put full faith and trust in the system (any system) where fraud, skulduggery, etc., can be
made and only proven by the guilty party's confession.
As to the ISU approving judges. I agree, who else can approve them? But they are not going to 'punish' anyone they have appoointed. That is the dilemna!
Joe
- Joined
- Jul 27, 2003
I don't think the only way to prove guilt is admission. For example, if there are credible witnesses to cheating, or documented evidence. You can't just suspend based on "accusations," where is the fairness in that? For example, I thought the suspension of Korytek and Babenko was justified, but not a life sentence like some say, because it was never proven that they cheated, only communicated.
Le Gougne is a strange case. The only witnesses are those who I do not deem credible. Her confession was never in writing, so who am I supposed to believe? Le Gougne seems to have changed her story, but the likes of Pfenning is even a darker figure. How can he be trusted when he was plotting for months against the ISU, while he was still an integral part of that organization?
I'm all for getting rid of bad judges, but when there is nothing but accustations from uncredible people, you can't just go on a witch hunt and suspend people based on accusations.
TV
Le Gougne is a strange case. The only witnesses are those who I do not deem credible. Her confession was never in writing, so who am I supposed to believe? Le Gougne seems to have changed her story, but the likes of Pfenning is even a darker figure. How can he be trusted when he was plotting for months against the ISU, while he was still an integral part of that organization?
I'm all for getting rid of bad judges, but when there is nothing but accustations from uncredible people, you can't just go on a witch hunt and suspend people based on accusations.
TV
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- Jul 11, 2003
thvudragon said:
Again, we are in accord in getting rid of bad judges. I'm confused though about witch hunts. Why would anyone want to accuse any judge of wrongdoing without some sort of information? There really hasn't been that many cases of presumed wrongdoing. It's not like there are witch hunts going on in the skating world. I doubt if there ever have been. Investigations of allegations are essential. That's the legal way.
Uncredible witnesses? Any examples and why? That would be collusion and is just as bad as a bad judge especially if it's in the nature of a plot.
Joe
- Joined
- Jul 27, 2003
I consider people like Pfenning and Stapleford uncredible, since Pfenning has plotted agains the ISU, while still an active member, and Staplefored did not resign and speak out until she was not reelected as the head of the techincal committee. I see that as people with blatant personal interests.Joesitz said:
Also, I don't really see the case against Yuri Balkov. Why do many want him suspended for ever, but have deep respect for Senft? I was very
as to why Terry Gannon celebrated her return to judging, when she is such a blatant example of a cheating judge, probably the worst IMO. Balkov, IMO, has nothing against him but the accusations from an uncredible woman. She's admitted to cheating, so can she really be trusted? She apparently had knowledge that "fixing" was taking place before the competition, so why did she keep her mouth shut? I think, it's because she was waiting to see if the result that she thought would happen, would happen (ie: B&K get bronze). Honestly, I don't even believe her tape is genuine, since it took her 6 months to actually come forward. She has the morals of an alley cat.TV
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2003
Speaking of judges; how would you like this formidable group of gentlemen to judge your skating program?
http://www.iceskate-magazine.com/JUDGES WORLD 1912 MANCHESTER.JPG
JUDGES WORLD 1912 MANCHESTER
http://www.iceskate-magazine.com/JUDGES WORLD 1912 MANCHESTER.JPG
JUDGES WORLD 1912 MANCHESTER
Sometimes I find old photos to be creepy, kind of like The Shining. The people look like spectres. I wonder if it used to be taboo to look directly at the camera. I guess the same old phrase was even relevant back then: "What were those judges looking at?"
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2003
Yes, I found this picture quite by accident and it sort of gave me a creepy feeling as well. It has to do with how the judging system in skating came about. It's really quite interesting. The article is found at www.iceskate-magazine.com.
" Sweepstakes and betting were apparently the sole incentive to speed amongst amateurs and professionals alike, in fact, except that the professionals seem to have been a little faster one can see no difference. The great winter of the Crimean war, 1854, gave an enormous impetus to skating and it was in this winter that William Smart, best known as “Turkey”, came to the fore and dominated speed skating for a decade. Of all Turkey’s rivals, the most formidable was William See, known as “Gutta Percha”, but it was not until 1867 that he succeeded in lowering Turkey’s colours, when the latter was in his forty-first year. Many sensational and exciting races took place over the intervening and subsequent years, before enormous crowds, with scenes of tumultuous enthusiasm. Although the races amongst the best men were without doubt properly conducted, the press got hold of many that were, to say the least, run on irregular lines; and it was this that caused a Mr. James Drake Digby, supported by a Dr. Moxon and Mr. G. Long and others who were equally interested in the sporting side of skating, to call a meeting to see what could be done to remove the all too frequent bad practices. This meeting was held at the Guildhall, Cambridge, on February 1st, 1879, and on that day the National Skating Association of Great Britain was born. A further meeting was held on March 1st, when the Duke of Devonshire, the Earl of Leicester and Mr. C. W. Townley, Lord Lieutenant of Cambridge, were invited to be presidents. It was resolved to establish a Skating Championship of England, and generally to promote the interests of skating."
I got a "chuckle" from this sentence. Is this still not the case?
" Sweepstakes and betting were apparently the sole incentive to speed amongst amateurs and professionals alike, in fact, except that the professionals seem to have been a little faster one can see no difference. The great winter of the Crimean war, 1854, gave an enormous impetus to skating and it was in this winter that William Smart, best known as “Turkey”, came to the fore and dominated speed skating for a decade. Of all Turkey’s rivals, the most formidable was William See, known as “Gutta Percha”, but it was not until 1867 that he succeeded in lowering Turkey’s colours, when the latter was in his forty-first year. Many sensational and exciting races took place over the intervening and subsequent years, before enormous crowds, with scenes of tumultuous enthusiasm. Although the races amongst the best men were without doubt properly conducted, the press got hold of many that were, to say the least, run on irregular lines; and it was this that caused a Mr. James Drake Digby, supported by a Dr. Moxon and Mr. G. Long and others who were equally interested in the sporting side of skating, to call a meeting to see what could be done to remove the all too frequent bad practices. This meeting was held at the Guildhall, Cambridge, on February 1st, 1879, and on that day the National Skating Association of Great Britain was born. A further meeting was held on March 1st, when the Duke of Devonshire, the Earl of Leicester and Mr. C. W. Townley, Lord Lieutenant of Cambridge, were invited to be presidents. It was resolved to establish a Skating Championship of England, and generally to promote the interests of skating."
I got a "chuckle" from this sentence. Is this still not the case?
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
TV - thanks for the reply. I am going to leave it go at this point because I don't have the information you have. Anyway, I think Octavio has taken care of the judges by hiding them from the public.
Joe
Joe
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2003
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
Thanks Hockeyfan - I'll check it out. If true, then this is a big step in the right direction of the CoP.
Joe
Joe
