Shoma Uno raises bar for 2016-17

[MaxSwagg]

but so far, both patrick and javi are increasing difficulty and are not on the downslope.... we will see..

Actually I shouldn't say "downslope" since past champion men haven't really continued past 25 or so (that I can recall off the top of my head right now) so we don't know how they would've fared. The three have enough pure technique in the jumps that continued success is dependent on staying injury-free. If they have no significant injuries I think they could go to 27 or 28 and still be at the top.

 

[4everchan]

exactly ... it's all about how long the body can endure it... and pure technique goes a long way for this, that's why i am not really worried about Patrick nor Javi.

Actually I shouldn't say "downslope" since past champion men haven't really continued past 25 or so (that I can recall off the top of my head right now) so we don't know how they would've fared. The three have enough pure technique in the jumps that continued success is dependent on staying injury-free. If they have no significant injuries I think they could go to 27 or 28 and still be at the top.

 

[Spiral]

i agree with you but i think what skater boy meant was mostly about the current situation. a lot of the ladies you have cited here are from at least 1 or 2 generations ago.... right now, teenagers (especially russian and japanese) rule the world....

Let’s look at the ladies’ medalists at the most important events in the last six years.

2010 OG: Kim 19, Asada 19, Rochette 24
2010 Worlds: Asada 19, Kim 19, Lepisto 21
2010 GPF: Szisny 23, Kostner 23, Murakami 16
2011 Worlds: Ando 23, Kim 20, Kostner 24
2011 GPF: Kostner 24, Suzuki 26, Leonova 21
2012 Worlds: Kostner 25, Leonova 21, Suzuki 26
2012 GPF: Asada 22, Wagner 21, Suzuki 27
2013 Worlds: Kim 22, Kostner 26, Asada 22
2013 GPF: Asada 23, Lipnitskaya 15, Wagner 22
2014 OG: Sotnikova 17, Kim 22, Kostner 26
2014 Worlds: Asada 23, Lipnitskaya 15, Kostner 26
2014 GPF: Tuktamysheva 18, Radionova 15, Wagner 23
2015 Worlds: Tuktamysheva 18, Miyahara 16, Radionova 16
2015 GPF: Medvedeva 16, Miyahara 17, Radionova 16
2016 Worlds: Medvedeva 16, Wagner 24, Pogorilaya 17

 

[cl2]

That is ancient for ladies lol - like seniors home.

Many of my non-skater friends wonder why the highest amateur competitive tier is called "Seniors". Now I know why.

 

[4everchan]

yup... we can see how the trend is reversing gradually... younger and younger medallists.... of course, there will always be veteran skaters like wagner but in her case, she is a late bloomer... I don't think she was quite challenging as a teenager. I think we can agree that teenagers, especially in the last couple years are making the news.

Let’s look at the ladies’ medalists at the most important events in the last six years.

2010 OG: Kim 19, Asada 19, Rochette 24
2010 Worlds: Asada 19, Kim 19, Lepisto 21
2010 GPF: Szisny 23, Kostner 23, Murakami 16
2011 Worlds: Ando 23, Kim 20, Kostner 24
2011 GPF: Kostner 24, Suzuki 26, Leonova 21
2012 Worlds: Kostner 25, Leonova 21, Suzuki 26
2012 GPF: Asada 22, Wagner 21, Suzuki 27
2013 Worlds: Kim 22, Kostner 26, Asada 22
2013 GPF: Asada 23, Lipnitskaya 15, Wagner 22
2014 OG: Sotnikova 17, Kim 22, Kostner 26
2014 Worlds: Asada 23, Lipnitskaya 15, Kostner 26
2014 GPF: Tuktamysheva 18, Radionova 15, Wagner 23
2015 Worlds: Tuktamysheva 18, Miyahara 16, Radionova 16
2015 GPF: Medvedeva 16, Miyahara 17, Radionova 16
2016 Worlds: Medvedeva 16, Wagner 24, Pogorilaya 17

 

[Spiral]

Two years don't make a trend, and even the last two years include Asada, Kostner and Kim in addition to Wagner.

 

[Arriba627]

As I have said many times here his technique needs to rework or he might end really badly, landings are so scary. Also the strategy of Yamada/Higuchi team seems a hot mess to me. He doesn't have the quality of other jumps while they are rushing to add new quads, this kind of strategy seems short sighted and very dangerous for his career. As we have seen the quality/success rate of his quad toe even decreased by the end of the season. Also I am not fan of his LP, I spotted more transitions but too much two footed skating and crossovers. ( Don't even mention Milva screaming /horrible) . The boy is pretty exciting but they should get him a jumping coach and make him rework completely his technique, ( add new quads after that), N2 Get a new choreographer.
I am in the camp who prefers to wait. First skater needs to have good technique and good jumps, if quantity overtakes quality and the coach approves this, that it is short sighted and that coach should be changed. It is good that he is ambitious but only wild ambition is useless unless they don't have gradual plan. I hope he wont end up like Kanako tho , I am not the one who trusts Y/H team. So I will wait, I doubt he can be numero UNO unless he reworks his jumps.

I really hope these dire predictions don't come true, but it seems several people have said in this and other threads that Shoma's coaches are good at bringing up young skaters, but not good as those same skaters mature. I am hoping that Shoma's training time in the U.S. is a step in the right direction. I guess time will tell.

Milva screaming -- well, I can't even go there.

 

[4everchan]

Two years don't make a trend, and even the last two years include Asada, Kostner and Kim in addition to Wagner.

by definition a trend is something ephemeral. if it's a big longer than a couple years, it's no longer a trend but it's pretty much how the sport shapes up to be long term. Wagner is a late bloomer. She wasn't a contender when she was young. Asada is a perfect example of a teenager with huge success. However, in her case, she's decided to come back. Was she close to the podium this year ? Nope.. Kostner hasn't skated since 2014. Already then, she was seen as one of the veteran.

I personally appreciate more mature skaters so I do wish this is a trend, a short-lived one. but I doubt so for ladies. For men, there is more variety, Shoma, Boyang, and others are facing older guys like Denis and Yuzu and even older guys like Patrick and Javi. All six of them are very competitive. In other words, there's no "youth" trend in the men. The trend right now is getting 2 quads if not 3. Main competitors are all going for that.

 

[Marin]

I really hope these dire predictions don't come true, but it seems several people have said in this and other threads that Shoma's coaches are good at bringing up young skaters, but not good as those same skaters mature. I am hoping that Shoma's training time in the U.S. is a step in the right direction. I guess time will tell.

Milva screaming -- well, I can't even go there.

I really hope none of those predictions will come true, he is an "excellent material" and needs a good methodical strategy. What I see his coaching team is rushing to get results as soon as possible in any possible way and they don't think much about long term results. He is young , me might not fully understand what risks he is going to take that's why good coaches are needed. I am not fan of that coaching team, even most of their juniors layout is a hot mess, look at Rin strategy, Kanako - they zayak every other day. They changed Shoma's layout countless times , and look at that emergency quad which he threw at Nats-that proves all.
As for Milva and Tango- it is just matter of taste, I strongly disliked the music choice, he lacks the sharpness of moves of tango and looks too airy, I hope I will change my opinion as it develops. On positive note I loved a transition to 3sal and 3A in silence, it is effective but also tricky, if he doesn't execute axel well it may affect a whole impression abt program. I spotted more transitions , this is really good, I see he is struggling with them for now but he will deal gradually, I hope he reduces crossovers too.

 

[Mathman]

by definition a trend is something ephemeral. if it's a big longer than a couple years, it's no longer a trend but it's pretty much how the sport shapes up to be long term.

I think that long term there are permanent changes in the sport that push it n one direction or another. Back in the day the champions were younger because amateurs could not make any money and top professionals could. So there were a lot of Olympic and world champions who won something as teenagers then went pro. This situation changed in the 1990s, although still Okasana Baul, Tara Lipinski, and Sarah Hughes were 16, 15, and 16 respectively when they won the Olympics. Nevertheless, I would say that the era was dominated by skaters like Michelle Kwan and Irina Slutskaya, and then by Mao Asada and Yuna Kim, who had long amateur careers.

It is possible that the requirements of the IJS give younger ladies an advantage, as we see by the Russian teenagers. If you can do the athletic jumps you will pretty much get top PCSs automatically, so there is not much opportunity to reward mature skating because everybody gets the same scores, mature or not. In men's, I don't know what the "trend" is. But I think that teenaged jumping prodigies like Boyang Jin and Nathan Chen will become less rare.

 

[Tutto]

I am probably in the minority not being happy with a mad quad race started by Jin. To begin with Jin, the landings of his quads are messy most of time and I just don't see why these should get such hype till such time when he at least sorts these issues out (thats even before looking into other areas of his skating). Many skaters who had hastily to up the tech are injured as a result. Shoma's underrotated flip at TCC got a praise & recognition it didn't deserve tbh. I agree with most posters here he should fix his jumping technique first before trying to add new quads. However the judges demonstrated in Boston that the quality is still rewarded thank God - Kolyada with only 2 quads but impeccable jumping technique, great spins & decent SS finished only 3 points behind Jin with 6 quads!

 

[Skater Boy]

Really?
Yuka Sato won Worlds at 21.
Yu-na Kim won her second Worlds at 21 and Olympic silver at 22.
Michelle Kwan won her 5th Worlds at 22.
Mao Asada won her 3rd Worlds at 23.
Irina Slutskaya won her 1st Worlds and Olympic silver at 23 and her 2nd Worlds at 26.
Shizuka Arakawa won Olympic gold at 24.
Carolina Kostner won Worlds at 25 and Worlds' silver at 26.
Maria Butyrskaya won Worlds at 26.
Not bad for a seniors' home, no?

Chill lol. I am just laughing at the current Russian situation and our olympic champions for a while were very young Baiul, Lipinski, Hughes were all teenagers then more recently stars like Med, Sot, Lip, Rad, Pog.

 

[4everchan]

I think that long term there are permanent changes in the sport that push it n one direction or another. Back in the day the champions were younger because amateurs could not make any money and top professionals could. So there were a lot of Olympic and world champions who won something as teenagers then went pro. This situation changed in the 1990s, although still Okasana Baul, Tara Lipinski, and Sarah Hughes were 16, 15, and 16 respectively when they won the Olympics. Nevertheless, I would say that the era was dominated by skaters like Michelle Kwan and Irina Slutskaya, and then by Mao Asada and Yuna Kim, who had long amateur careers.

It is possible that the requirements of the IJS give younger ladies an advantage, as we see by the Russian teenagers. If you can do the athletic jumps you will pretty much get top PCSs automatically, so there is not much opportunity to reward mature skating because everybody gets the same scores, mature or not. In men's, I don't know what the "trend" is. But I think that teenaged jumping prodigies like Boyang Jin and Nathan Chen will become less rare.

well exactly, that's why i wasn't willing to compare the sport in ladies in the kwan era.... very different as most olympic champions retired right away as there was pro skating money to be made.

regarding men... well... even in canada : Roman is working on his 4S right now. Nicolas Nadeau : attempted 4T last year, just did a 4LZ (it's on instagram) and he already has a gorgeous 3A. Those teenagers are going to push Nam who had 2 quads before his growth spurt. However, it was made clear by judges that quads needed to be coupled with good skating this year. We will see if that remains in 2017.

 

[Spiral]

by definition a trend is something ephemeral.

I think something ephemeral doesn’t even need to be discussed.

If it's a big longer than a couple years, it's no longer a trend but it's pretty much how the sport shapes up to be long term.

Not necessarily. Trends can reverse themselves. In any case, the ages of top female figure skaters are mostly a matter of coincidence. There have always been successful teenagers among them, as long as successful twenty-somethings.

Wagner is a late bloomer. She wasn't a contender when she was young. Asada is a perfect example of a teenager with huge success. However, in her case, she's decided to come back. Was she close to the podium this year ? Nope. Kostner hasn't skated since 2014. Already then, she was seen as one of the veteran.

Or, so one year makes a trend now? Kim, Kostner and Asada were very successful within the last two years. I won’t be surprised at all if Asada wins a medal at Helsinki or GPF. I’ll be very surprised if she isn’t in GPF.

I personally appreciate more mature skaters so I do wish this is a trend, a short-lived one. but I doubt so for ladies. For men, there is more variety, Shoma, Boyang, and others are facing older guys like Denis and Yuzu and even older guys like Patrick and Javi. All six of them are very competitive. In other words, there's no "youth" trend in the men. The trend right now is getting 2 quads if not 3. Main competitors are all going for that.

I don’t measure skaters’ maturity by their age. I think that Kwan, Kim, Asada and Lipnitskaya all showed considerable maturity in their artistic expression by sixteen, if not younger, and so does Medvedeva. On the other hand, I’ve seen enough older skaters who didn’t have much by way of artistic expression. It’s a gift, like for acting (although it’s not the same kind of talent, of course). Some can be quite mature very young, some develop it with time, and others never do. So it doesn’t matter to me at all what age the winners in any discipline in fs are, but I don’t see any trend either.

It is possible that the requirements of the IJS give younger ladies an advantage, as we see by the Russian teenagers. If you can do the athletic jumps you will pretty much get top PCSs automatically, so there is not much opportunity to reward mature skating because everybody gets the same scores, mature or not. In men's, I don't know what the "trend" is. But I think that teenaged jumping prodigies like Boyang Jin and Nathan Chen will become less rare.

I don’t think skaters who can do difficult jumps get high PCs automatically. Boyang doesn’t, even when he skates a clean program. Uno and most top Russian girls deserve high PCs.

I also have strong suspicions that if Karen Chen were in Medvedeva’s place, this forum would have been still reeling from euphoria, and nobody would have been talking about any non-existing trends. (Heck, the first Olympic champion I can remember in the Ladies’ discipline was Katarina Witt who won her first OGM at 18. Sonya Henie did it at 15.) But because Chen had an ordinary first season in seniors nobody is talking about her, unlike last summer, even though she’s improved a great deal in artistic expression IMO. TBH I didn’t think much of her the year she won the bronze at US Nationals, but I really enjoyed her skating this year, medals or not and am looking forward to seeing her next year.

 

[4everchan]

^^

i don't think you understand what I have written. A trend by definition is not something that is long lasting. There is enough data in the last few years to acknowledge the rise of Russian and Japanese teenagers. That is a trend. Talking about Mao and Caro doesn't change that. Actually, what is amazing is that skaters like Adelina and Julia or Elizaveta didn't qualify for worlds.... These 3 girls were on top and suddenly we have Medvedeva, Pogo and Radio. Of course, there are other junior girls coming up as well both from Japan and Russia.

That's all I am saying. Not sure what is unclear.

 

[Mathman]

I don’t think skaters who can do difficult jumps get high PCs automatically. Boyang doesn’t,…

You got me there. For the free skate at Worlds he got beat in PCSs by Rippon, Kolyada, Uno, Aaron, Chan, Hochstein, Brezina, Ten, and Vasiljevs, but beat them all in total.

Plus, Nathan Chen hit four quads in the LP and 2 in the short at U.S. Nationals, which was good enough for third place (would have been fourth if Jason Brown had competed.)

However, Nathan's placement caused an uproar of criticism of the USFSA for being hopelessly behind the times in allowing such a result. "Doesn't the U.S. ever want to win anything internationally again?" But then, too, there is a question as to whether Nathan's too many quads, too soon, approach has already brought his career to an end due to chronic injury.

Still, I think that Boyang's idea -- do as many quads as possible now, work on artistry later -- will become more the norm than the Chan (or Brown) model -- skating skills now, add a triple Axel and a quad in maturity.

 

[Spiral]

^^i don't think you understand what I have written. A trend by definition is not something that is long lasting. There is enough data in the last few years to acknowledge the rise of Russian and Japanese teenagers. That is a trend. Talking about Mao and Caro doesn't change that. Actually, what is amazing is that skaters like Adelina and Julia or Elizaveta didn't qualify for worlds.... These 3 girls were on top and suddenly we have Medvedeva, Pogo and Radio. Of course, there are other junior girls coming up as well both from Japan and Russia.
That's all I am saying. Not sure what is unclear.

I think there is enough data to show that the top ladies field in fs has always been a mixture of teenagers and twenty-somethings, and that there’s no trend, but it seems to me that we’ll have to agree to disagree on this issue. Which countries are more dominant does change from time to time, but that’s another story.

Reg. specific skaters, I personally think that Sotnikova wasn’t as strong as the other top contenders in the first place; she just happened to have a terrific LP skate at the Olympics, which was way above anything she’d demonstrated that season previously. Perhaps, having been left out of the team event gave her the motivation. Lipnitskaya is no mystery. It takes time to adjust to a very different body, and some skaters never get to be as good with adult bodies as with children’s bodies, for obvious reasons. In fact, given that the sport does favor a child’s body for women (for men there’s not as much difference in body type, plus they get considerably stronger muscles as they mature), it is surprising that there have always been adult female figure skaters able to compete successfully with petite teens. Tuktamysheva’s surge in the post-Olympic year is similar to Sotnikova’s at Sochi, I think. She’d been tooted as the Olympic hopeful from an early age and then didn’t get to go to Olympics at all. There was danger that her career would be over and that in time she’d be forgotten; all her previous work might have been in vain. For some people it’s easier to spring up from the nadir than to keep going at the apogee. But those are just individual stories that happened to happen at the same time.

You got me there. For the free skate at Worlds he got beat in PCSs by Rippon, Kolyada, Uno, Aaron, Chan, Hochstein, Brezina, Ten, and Vasiljevs, but beat them all in total.
Plus, Nathan Chen hit four quads in the LP and 2 in the short at U.S. Nationals, which was good enough for third place (would have been fourth if Jason Brown had competed.)
However, Nathan's placement caused an uproar of criticism of the USFSA for being hopelessly behind the times in allowing such a result. "Doesn't the U.S. ever want to win anything internationally again?" But then, too, there is a question as to whether Nathan's too many quads, too soon, approach has already brought his career to an end due to chronic injury.
Still, I think that Boyang's idea -- do as many quads as possible now, work on artistry later -- will become more the norm than the Chan (or Brown) model -- skating skills now, add a triple Axel and a quad in maturity.

I think they probably focus on what they can do at a particular time. Jumps aren’t Jason’s strong point, but presentation is. Boyang is the opposite. I’m sure if Jason could have mastered a quad or two earlier, he would have. And if Boyang had a natural gift for presentation from an early age, he would have skated like Shoma or Yuzuru. The latter two combine both incredible tech content and very expressive skating – because they can.

 

[Arriba627]

I am probably in the minority not being happy with a mad quad race started by Jin. To begin with Jin, the landings of his quads are messy most of time and I just don't see why these should get such hype till such time when he at least sorts these issues out (thats even before looking into other areas of his skating). Many skaters who had hastily to up the tech are injured as a result. Shoma's underrotated flip at TCC got a praise & recognition it didn't deserve tbh. I agree with most posters here he should fix his jumping technique first before trying to add new quads. However the judges demonstrated in Boston that the quality is still rewarded thank God - Kolyada with only 2 quads but impeccable jumping technique, great spins & decent SS finished only 3 points behind Jin with 6 quads!

I can't stand the quad madness. At the very least they should limit it to one in the short and two in the long. And I may be in the minority, but I fully expected Shoma to take the bronze at Worlds. Too bad they messed around with the layout of his FS. I think it just made him too nervous. But that being said, you can't screw up the 3-3 in both the short and long and expect to get on the podium, especially if you crash and burn then on the quad.

We'll see how much tango "feel" his tango has. Maybe it will end up being like Javi's flamenco -- flamenco? What flamenco?

Kolyada was superb at Worlds. Can't wait to see what he does next season.

 

[MaxSwagg]

I can't stand the quad madness. At the very least they should limit it to one in the short and two in the long. And I may be in the minority, but I fully expected Shoma to take the bronze at Worlds. Too bad they messed around with the layout of his FS. I think it just made him too nervous. But that being said, you can't screw up the 3-3 in both the short and long and expect to get on the podium, especially if you crash and burn then on the quad.

We'll see how much tango "feel" his tango has. Maybe it will end up being like Javi's flamenco -- flamenco? What flamenco?

Kolyada was superb at Worlds. Can't wait to see what he does next season.

Why limit the quad? It's a sport. Chan, Hanyu, and Fernandez can do multiple quads with the highest quality, and in the case of Hanyu out of/into difficult transitions. How is limiting the quads fair to Hanyu and Fernandez in particular?

 

[Mathman]

Kolyada was superb at Worlds. Can't wait to see what he does next season.

Wonderful surprise at Worlds. He was totally in command of his performance. I, too, look forward to next year.