Shoma Uno raises bar for 2016-17

[Blades of Passion]

however, i think fernandez back then wasn't solid enough to attempt the 2 quads SP

And yet he was doing a 3 Quad LP. It makes no sense. Especially because in order to be considered a serious threat to WIN Olympics, he needed that technical boost. There was literally nothing to lose since falling on a Quad didn't really hurt your score anyway.

right now, there's very little risk as it's not olympic season... we will see what the layouts are in 2018... but for 2017, sure... we will see more attempts

2 Quads in the SP are here to stay. Thinking the top Men are going to regress for the Olympics (aside from injury reasons) is like thinking the Women are going to stop doing 7 Triples and 2 Double Axels in the LP. Not happening. It's the new standard.

 

[4everchan]

And yet he was doing a 3 Quad LP. It makes no sense. Especially because in order to be considered a serious threat to WIN Olympics, he needed that technical boost. There was literally nothing to lose since falling on a Quad didn't really hurt your score anyway.



2 Quads in the SP are here to stay. Thinking the top Men are going to regress for the Olympics (aside from injury reasons) is like thinking the Women are going to stop doing 7 Triples and 2 Double Axels in the LP. Not happening. It's the new standard.

i didn't say that skaters will not attempt quads anymore... gosh... but some guy like shoma, in 2016-17 may try his 4F in the SP and realize that he's better off point wise not doing so after a year of getting UR on it... and in 2018 he may no longer go for it as he is better off with a fully rotated +++ GOE triple. Rippon didn't try his 4Lz at worlds in the SP right ?



Regarding Fernandez and the 3 quad LP... it's very simple to explain. Technically, he is supposed to have steps going into the solo jump in the SP... so that's one reason (even though judges often turn a blind eye on that requirement)... the other reason is that there is no time to breathe in a SP with all the elements required... in the LP, there is. Finally, there risk for kayak is greater in the SP because if he goes and does 4S-3T and then pops the 4T into a 3T... well ... we know what happens with that... so actually, there was a much bigger risk to do 2 quads in the SP than 3 in the LP...

I am indeed surprised that someone who knows the rules inside out like you doesn't see it.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Regarding Fernandez and the 3 quad LP... it's very simple to explain. Technically, he is supposed to have steps going into the solo jump in the SP... so that's one reason (even though judges often turn a blind eye on that requirement)... the other reason is that there is no time to breathe in a SP with all the elements required... in the LP, there is. Finally, there risk for kayak is greater in the SP because if he goes and does 4S-3T and then pops the 4T into a 3T... well ... we know what happens with that... so actually, there was a much bigger risk to do 2 quads in the SP than 3 in the LP.

That's just all wrong. He was already doing turning-3's into his Quad Sal, there was nothing he would have had to change to put it in the SP, and he would have done 4T+3T as the combo (just like he is doing now) so there wouldn't be a possible zayak problem. There's definitely NOT "less time to breathe" in a SP as compared to a LP either. Especially since you do the quads at the top of the program. The 3rd Quad in the LP is way harder.

 

[4everchan]

of course there were steps into the 4S as that was the jump he was using as a solo jump, exactly because he wasn't stable with the 4T.... funny how you say that all I say is all wrong but you just confirmed what I was saying earlier. if javi wanted to use two quads back at sochi for the sp, and as you say, include 4S as solo jump and 4T as combo, it would have been too much of a risk as falling on the 4T back then was common for him... and would have denied the whole combo. So what I was saying, which you didn't read, is that he would have probably needed to use the 4S for the combo and then not only do the 4T which was shaky but do it out of step, which is more difficult... that is what was less risky for him, yet, still deemed not worth it. before saying something is all wrong, perhaps you should try to see what the other person is talking about. I stick to my guns here : Fernandez couldn't do 2 quads in the SP in sochi because it was too risky for him back then.... and regarding the extra time in the LP, most of the guys have "a breather" section in the middle... which there's no time to do in the SP as even if the first couple jumping passes are done quickly, and that's less common with backloading, the rest of the program still has to have the spins and the steps... there's no time to breathe at all.... in the LP, we see that guys have a slower section, catch their breath and then attempt their 3rd quad... anyways, that's how I see it, and you are welcome to disagree with me, but saying that all I wrote is garbage doesn't make it garbage it just makes you look aggressive cheers

That's just all wrong. He was already doing turning-3's into his Quad Sal, there was nothing he would have had to change to put it in the SP, and he would have done 4T+3T as the combo (just like he is doing now) so there wouldn't be a possible zayak problem. There's definitely NOT "less time to breathe" in a SP as compared to a LP either. Especially since you do the quads at the top of the program. The 3rd Quad in the LP is way harder.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Sorry but that is simply not correct to me. He would plan a 4T+3T exactly as he does now. If he fell on the 4T then he could do the combo on the 4S. It wouldn't be that much of a risk because you get a huge amount of point for flawed quads, as long as you rotate, which he didn't have a problem with.

I'm not sure why you're talking about a breather. In the LP people do 3 jumping passes, their footwork sequence, and a spin in the first half of the program. Of course they take a breather before going into the second half. Nobody does that much in the first half of the SP so there isn't as much of a need. They just do 2 jumps, their easiest spin, and their 3rd jump. In any case there is certainly still time to put in a short breather in the SP if necessary.

Fernandez wasn't likely to win the Olympics without adding that tech content to the SP. To me, it was a bigger risk NOT to add it. He was just throwing points away, not utilizing the biggest advantage he had in comparison to the other guys. Again, he made multiple mistakes in the SP at the Olympics anyway. By only playing to the status quo he simply disadvantaged himself and did not win a medal. He would have received more points for even a flawed Quad and it's not like his Lutz was super consistent at the time anyway, as we saw!

Just look at what won the Olympics - Hanyu falling twice. Look at what won Worlds the year before - Chan falling 3 times. Mistakes in jumps were not punished enough (they still aren't). You seem to be taking a contrarian approach here because the guys doing 2 Quads in the SP at the time would have been a huge threat to Chan and you don't want to think about a world where Chan wouldn't have been as much if a favorite for the Olympics.

 

[4everchan]

You seem to be taking a contrarian approach here because the guys doing 2 Quads in the SP at the time would have been a huge threat to Chan and you don't want to think about a world where Chan wouldn't have been as much if a favorite for the Olympics.

OMG this is the funniest comment I have ever seen.... why would I care if Chan hadn't been seen as a favourite ? Does it make things better that he was the favourite but didn't deliver? :scratch3::whack:

All I am saying, is that in 2014, people went with content they thought was the biggest reward vs risk, and it seems to be like this in olympic years... and that we will see if a guy like Shoma, for instance, will be willing to risk doing his quad flip in 2018, if it's as shaky as it is now. I talked about Javi, because to me, he is the perfect example of a skater who did have two quads,yet a very unstable one (history proves my point), opting to only use one.

You think it was a mistake for him not to try two in the SP? Good.. Talk to Brian Orser about it. For my part, I think that if they were hoping for him to win, he needed to be flawless, no matter the content he had back then...

 

[Blades of Passion]

OMG this is the funniest comment I have ever seen.... why would I care if Chan hadn't been seen as a favourite?

Because he might not have even been 2nd place if Fernandez had upped his tech? Maybe you aren't really being defensive about Chan but I don't know why you'd argue otherwise then.

For my part, I think that if they were hoping for him to win, he needed to be flawless, no matter the content he had back then...

You mean like how Hanyu needed to be flawless to win? Points are points. Quads brought the points and falling on Quads, or other various mistakes on them, still brought a lot of points too. If Fernandez had started training a 2-Quad SP in the 2012-2013 season and built up consistency and reputation with it, that would have just helped him even more, since PCS are largely dependent on who the perceived "leaders" are.

 

[4everchan]

^^

there was still a noticeable difference in PCS back then... Hanyu could win with mistakes... so could Chan... but Fernandez wasn't quite getting the same level of PCS as those two... or even some others. That's what I mean with Javi needing to be flawless... this is how I recall the events, YMMV

going back to Shoma, the difference here is that right from the start, he has had quite a high level of PCS... so perhaps that can help him to feel confident about taking risks.

 

[wookchub]

I think Shoma is in a pretty decent position to go for it and take all the risks he wants. He's getting high PCS (deserved or not) but I don't think he has the same level of pressure to deliver as Yuzuru, Javi, etc. so why not try it out for a while. He just has so much time to do everything he wants to do, why not go cray and throw a 4F in at the Olympics. Unless he wants to pull a Yuzuru and reign from his first Olympics, but I don't know if that's his goal?

 

[Mathman]

^ But then, too, why wouldn't it be his goal. You enter a contest to win, not to admire the other competitors.

 

[Ares]

^ But then, too, why wouldn't it be his goal. You enter a contest to win, not to admire the other competitors.

This. I fully expect Uno to try 4F and other difficult elements consistently in the next season. Why else would he train them and perform in TCC (ugly but ratified)? Like many others I'd prefer him to fix his current technical jump shortcomings first but he is focused on something else and we have no say on that matter.

 

[Tutto]

2 Quads in the SP are here to stay. Thinking the top Men are going to regress for the Olympics (aside from injury reasons) is like thinking the Women are going to stop doing 7 Triples and 2 Double Axels in the LP. Not happening. It's the new standard.

Well, last summer we thought that 3A would be a new standard for the top ladies. Reports were coming in from Gracie, Alaine, Courtney (have I forgotten anyone) all practising it... Well we didn't see many in competition save Mao's and some not great ones from Liza who actually initiated that 'mad 3A race'

 

[gsyzf]

People are capable of planning ahead and need to at times. "Potential threats" are something people can concern themselves with, staying ahead of the curve. Hanyu watched the video of Jin and then went to his coach and said "I want to do more Quads like this". That is just what happened. It's a thought many skaters had after seeing Jin's jumps. A sudden realization of exactly what they may be up against in the future, where the standard is headed.

Competitors casually "practicing things in case they need them in the future" doesn't fully prepare them for the future. You can't just practice a Quad in isolation and then hope to automatically do it in a program "when you need it". You have to train it as your planned program, try it in competition, build mileage on it. If you're worried about someone in the future being able to beat your 2-Quad program with a 4-Quad program, then logically you should start competing a 3-Quad program. That way you have increased your level and are on a stepping stone towards possibly being able to do your own 4-Quad program in the future, should the need arise. You can't just magically hope to start doing a 4-Quad program when you find that your competitor is catching up to you in other areas. Hanyu is an aware individual, he realizes this. Plus he likes this kind of challenge anyway.

You talk about how Chan practiced other quads "in case he needed them"...well guess what, he did need them this past season. But he didn't have them because he never seriously trained them and never competed them in the past. The only thing he could realistically do was add another Triple Axel and that upgrade is in fact the only reason Patrick Chan beat Boyang Jin at 4CC (barely) this past season. So much for Boyang not threatening anyone. A guy that gets on the World podium his very first year is totally not a threat. Yeah.

It's easy for people to talk about their ambitions and just think that they want to do this and that. But that doesn't mean they will actually do it. People will only do something when the reward is greater than the risk. People face different risk and reward in different time and when they are in different position. You may ask why didn't Fernandez add more quads to his sp and why didn't Chan add more 3A or quads before. When a skater has no major title and is the underdog, he would not hesitate to upgrade his layout and take more risk because his has nothing to lose. But when a skater reaches the top and is considered one of the best skaters and the one to beat, the expectation he faces is much bigger. The public expects him to give flawless or near flawless performances in the future. He has a lot to lose if he gives a sub-par performance, i.e. he will lose his momentum, reputation and the chance to win in the future. (Skaters become more inconsistent when they try more risky elements. Nobody is guaranteed to be consistent in competition as soon as they try a new jump no matter how consistent their jumps are in practice. They usually have to fall many times before they become consistent in competitions.) When skaters reach the top, they become more passive and conservative in taking risk. You can look all the champions in the past, as soon as they reach the top, they don't take more risk any more (they are not serious about it even if they do try some risky elements) unless they have strong close rivals to challenge them. It's not that they are not capable of doing more technically, but they have too much to lose and they become more conservative because they become afraid of losing when gold is theirs to lose.

Hanyu is not superman. He is an ordinary human who shares similar sentiment as other athletes. He considered doing 4Lo before WC when he couldn't do the 4t due to his injury, but decided against it eventually because he wanted to win too much and didn't want to take the risk. He considered retiring and taking a season off after Sochi just like many Olympic champs did after winning the Olympics. The main reason he still has the motivation to continue competing after the Olympics and is still willing to take the risk to upgrade his layout after winning all major titles and breaking WR is because he didn't win the Olympics with a good performance, barely won the 2014 WC, lost to Chan and Fernandez and lost worlds two years in a row.

 

[MaxSwagg]

It's easy for people to talk about their ambitions and just think that they want to do this and that. But that doesn't mean they will actually do it. People will only do something when the reward is greater than the risk. People face different risk and reward in different time and when they are in different position. You may ask why didn't Fernandez add more quads to his sp and why didn't Chan add more 3A or quads before. When a skater has no major title and is the underdog, he would not hesitate to upgrade his layout and take more risk because his has nothing to lose. But when a skater reaches the top and is considered one of the best skaters and the one to beat, the expectation he faces is much bigger. The public expects him to give flawless or near flawless performances in the future. He has a lot to lose if he gives a sub-par performance, i.e. he will lose his momentum, reputation and the chance to win in the future. (Skaters become more inconsistent when they try more risky elements. Nobody is guaranteed to be consistent in competition as soon as they try a new jump no matter how consistent their jumps are in practice. They usually have to fall many times before they become consistent in competitions.) When skaters reach the top, they become more passive and conservative in taking risk. You can look all the champions in the past, as soon as they reach the top, they don't take more risk any more (they are not serious about it even if they do try some risky elements) unless they have strong close rivals to challenge them. It's not that they are not capable of doing more technically, but they have too much to lose and they become more conservative because they become afraid of losing when gold is theirs to lose.

Hanyu is not superman. He is an ordinary human who shares similar sentiment as other athletes. He considered doing 4Lo before WC when he couldn't do the 4t due to his injury, but decided against it eventually because he wanted to win too much and didn't want to take the risk. He considered retiring and taking a season off after Sochi just like many Olympic champs did after winning the Olympics. The main reason he still has the motivation to continue competing after the Olympics and is still willing to take the risk to upgrade his layout after winning all major titles and breaking WR is because he didn't win the Olympics with a good performance, barely won the 2014 WC, lost to Chan and Fernandez and lost worlds two years in a row.

Huh? Yuzu never considered retiring or taking a season off after Sochi...

 

[wookchub]

Hanyu is not superman. He is an ordinary human who shares similar sentiment as other athletes. He considered doing 4Lo before WC when he couldn't do the 4t due to his injury, but decided against it eventually because he wanted to win too much and didn't want to take the risk. He considered retiring and taking a season off after Sochi just like many Olympic champs did after winning the Olympics. The main reason he still has the motivation to continue competing after the Olympics and is still willing to take the risk to upgrade his layout after winning all major titles and breaking WR is because he didn't win the Olympics with a good performance, barely won the 2014 WC, lost to Chan and Fernandez and lost worlds two years in a row.

I know this isn't exactly Shoma related, but what you said isn't exactly true. Yuzuru did practice the 4Lo...he then promptly lost it due to injury and wasn't even able to jump a triple. After weeks of recovery he got his 4T back and so he kept it to save his injury from worsening. He has never said he didn't do the 4Lo because it was a risk and he may not win with it.

He also frequently states that his motivation to continue skating is simply to improve. He wants to push the sport further with new quads, new layouts, new whatever. In his most recent interview he stated his goal is just to see how much he can evolve, and that skating is his joy and happiness.

 

[MaxSwagg]

I actually thought I read in a interview that he said out of the three quads, 4Lo was the only one that he could do at one point. But that's just small points...

 

[gsyzf]

Huh? Yuzu never considered retiring or taking a season off after Sochi...

He said in his new book that he considered retiring after sochi. He said in an interview that he considered taking a season off when he had back pain before the 2014-2015 season.

I know this isn't exactly Shoma related, but what you said isn't exactly true. Yuzuru did practice the 4Lo...he then promptly lost it due to injury and wasn't even able to jump a triple. After weeks of recovery he got his 4T back and so he kept it to save his injury from worsening. He has never said he didn't do the 4Lo because it was a risk and he may not win with it.

He also frequently states that his motivation to continue skating is simply to improve. He wants to push the sport further with new quads, new layouts, new whatever. In his most recent interview he stated his goal is just to see how much he can evolve, and that skating is his joy and happiness.

Everyone wants to improve. Nobody wants to regress. But the desire to improve alone is not strong enough to compensate the risk he is taking. There needs to be much bigger reward to compensate the risk. The biggest reward for him is winning with a good performance. (He is not going to do something to improve himself, and lose.)

He shares the same sentiments as all the other top skaters. He doesn't think differently from others. Perhaps what's different about him is that he has a stronger desire to win and he is willing to endure more pain than many other top skaters. But he is afraid of losing when gold is his to lose just like other top skaters are afraid of losing. That's why he can mess up when he is in the winning position after the sp.

 

[MaxSwagg]

He said in his new book that he considered retiring after sochi. He said in an interview that he considered taking a season off when he had back pain before the 2014-2015 season.

I think he said he thought about "giving up" many times, but not "retire."

 

[gsyzf]

I think he said he thought about "giving up" many times, but not "retire."

In the new book, he said he considered retiring after sochi because he was burnt out.

 

[TheGrandSophy]

I know this isn't exactly Shoma related...

Don't worry. Neither is most of this thread.