Should Ladies Skating Allow Quads in the SP?

[Harriet]

I think it would be interesting to require that all types of jumps must be included in the “technical” program as this is the best way for a skater to show their technical mastery over all jumping elements.

It would also be interesting to require at least one of every rotation group of jumps up to triples in the technical program (for seniors and juniors, at least). So each skater must do at least one single jump, one double jump and one triple jump (Eulers count). Prove that they have the control and finesse required to intentionally do a low-rotation jump well, no 'LOL I spend so much time on the important big jumps that I've forgotten how to do those titchy little things' excuses allowed.

Because single and double jumps are, in fact, skills and as such should be assessed in a technical program.

 

[Joekaz]

But why should it not matter?
I think it should matter, whether someone does quads or no. quads are difficult and should get rewarded accordingly.

It would matter, but not be the most important thing. It would be more of a tie breaker between two equally talented skaters, instead of an elevating factor for an inferior skater. Isn't that the way it should be?

 

[lzxnl]

Also I hear these notions of gender equality here, how it's not fair for women to have differently requirements to men. Really?

In how many sports that involve jumping or running can women actually match men? Sprinting, tennis, high jump, hurdles... there's a reason there's two divisions. Men are biologically programmed to be stronger on average, and even at the elite level, there are physical differences. Ignoring this for the sake of political correctness is just insanity. There's nothing inherently wrong with a short program involving triples if that's what nearly all women are doing, and if you want skaters to not just focus on jumps.

 

[curious]

Also I hear these notions of gender equality here, how it's not fair for women to have differently requirements to men. Really?

In how many sports that involve jumping or running can women actually match men? Sprinting, tennis, high jump, hurdles... there's a reason there's two divisions. Men are biologically programmed to be stronger on average, and even at the elite level, there are physical differences. Ignoring this for the sake of political correctness is just insanity. There's nothing inherently wrong with a short program involving triples if that's what nearly all women are doing, and if you want skaters to not just focus on jumps.

You are absolutely right. The problem is ladies are already landing quads in the long programs why not in the short.

 

[Fried]

Also I hear these notions of gender equality here, how it's not fair for women to have differently requirements to men. Really?

In how many sports that involve jumping or running can women actually match men? Sprinting, tennis, high jump, hurdles... there's a reason there's two divisions. Men are biologically programmed to be stronger on average, and even at the elite level, there are physical differences. Ignoring this for the sake of political correctness is just insanity. There's nothing inherently wrong with a short program involving triples if that's what nearly all women are doing, and if you want skaters to not just focus on jumps.

Your reasoning is misleading. It's not about whether women can or should compete with men. If men are allowed to do what they are able to do, but women are not, it is definitely unfair, unsportsmanlike and presumptuous!

 

[lariko]

Also I hear these notions of gender equality here, how it's not fair for women to have differently requirements to men. Really?

In how many sports that involve jumping or running can women actually match men? Sprinting, tennis, high jump, hurdles... there's a reason there's two divisions. Men are biologically programmed to be stronger on average, and even at the elite level, there are physical differences. Ignoring this for the sake of political correctness is just insanity. There's nothing inherently wrong with a short program involving triples if that's what nearly all women are doing, and if you want skaters to not just focus on jumps.

In figure skating, the scoring potential for ladies is held lower through restriction on quads in SP than the scoring potential for gentlemen. In junior division, ladies can score as high as gentlemen of their age. It should also be possible in the senior group imo.

Just because nobody had landed 4A in competition or quintuple yet, it doesn’t make them outlawed elements. Quad jumps now had been landed by ladies in international competitions for a few years, counting juniors. It is obviously as possible and ladylike as the allowed 3A.

 

[jkun]

I think for now quads should not be allowed in the ladies short program. For one reason, which I suppose may be somewhat "purist" of me.

I feel as though the typical training of jumps in sequential order should be followed. If doing proper technique, I think the difficulty ranking of the jumps (in terms of points awarded) is accurate: T < S < Lo < F < Lz < A. Right now we have a number of ladies choosing to skip the 3A and going for various quads. I know it is a controversial topic, but I think there is clearly a reason why they are doing so. It seems as though leniency in judging has allowed jumping a 4Lz/F to be easier than jumping a 3A or even the "easier" quads like 4T, 4S. I will give Sasha respect for going for 4T/4S, which I think are probably the most fully rotated quads in the ladies discipline as well as training her 3A. Changing the rules fully empowers those who wish to skip the 3A and go for quads.

Keeping the 3A as the highest scoring element in the SP at least gives incentive for ladies to train 3A and progress through the set progression of jumping elements. Perhaps my view is flawed though, considering it is a set progression that has been set by male skaters. Just my opinion! In my mind it has little to do with equality in the sport, and more to do with a vision for how the technical content in ladies skating should be progressed through.

 

[lariko]

I think for now quads should not be allowed in the ladies short program. For one reason, which I suppose may be somewhat "purist" of me.

I feel as though the typical training of jumps in sequential order should be followed. If doing proper technique, I think the difficulty ranking of the jumps (in terms of points awarded) is accurate: T < S < Lo < F < Lz < A. Right now we have a number of ladies choosing to skip the 3A and going for various quads. I know it is a controversial topic, but I think there is clearly a reason why they are doing so. It seems as though leniency in judging has allowed jumping a 4Lz/F to be easier than jumping a 3A or even the "easier" quads like 4T, 4S. I will give Sasha respect for going for 4T/4S, which I think are probably the most fully rotated quads in the ladies discipline as well as training her 3A. Changing the rules fully empowers those who wish to skip the 3A and go for quads.

Keeping the 3A as the highest scoring element in the SP at least gives incentive for ladies to train 3A and progress through the set progression of jumping elements. Perhaps my view is flawed though, considering it is a set progression that has been set by male skaters. Just my opinion! In my mind it has little to do with equality in the sport, and more to do with a vision for how the technical content in ladies skating should be progressed through.

There are male skaters who learn 3A after some other quads, and most all males I see in competitions have more troubles with landing a successful 3A vs their best quad.

 

[withwings]

Also I hear these notions of gender equality here, how it's not fair for women to have differently requirements to men. Really?

In how many sports that involve jumping or running can women actually match men? Sprinting, tennis, high jump, hurdles... there's a reason there's two divisions. Men are biologically programmed to be stronger on average, and even at the elite level, there are physical differences. Ignoring this for the sake of political correctness is just insanity. There's nothing inherently wrong with a short program involving triples if that's what nearly all women are doing, and if you want skaters to not just focus on jumps.

At least one sound opinion. Thank you, Izxnl. Truly, only someone with a complete ignorance about these biological differences can argue, or rather make arguments and-in some, if not of the most, cases- for the sake of hidden political agenda. Why the same people do not argue about equality for men for instance to become pregnant or to bear a child?


On the physiological/biological and psychological and medical level a child's/girl's body differs from the woman's body. Not allowing quadruples in SP... perhaps it only respects what needs to be respected, and from all the standpoints. It does not make figure skating worse. There is a LP.

Where is Elizabeth with her quadruples now?

 

[withwings]

I think for now quads should not be allowed in the ladies short program. For one reason, which I suppose may be somewhat "purist" of me.

I feel as though the typical training of jumps in sequential order should be followed. If doing proper technique, I think the difficulty ranking of the jumps (in terms of points awarded) is accurate: T < S < Lo < F < Lz < A. Right now we have a number of ladies choosing to skip the 3A and going for various quads. I know it is a controversial topic, but I think there is clearly a reason why they are doing so. It seems as though leniency in judging has allowed jumping a 4Lz/F to be easier than jumping a 3A or even the "easier" quads like 4T, 4S. I will give Sasha respect for going for 4T/4S, which I think are probably the most fully rotated quads in the ladies discipline as well as training her 3A. Changing the rules fully empowers those who wish to skip the 3A and go for quads.

Keeping the 3A as the highest scoring element in the SP at least gives incentive for ladies to train 3A and progress through the set progression of jumping elements. Perhaps my view is flawed though, considering it is a set progression that has been set by male skaters. Just my opinion! In my mind it has little to do with equality in the sport, and more to do with a vision for how the technical content in ladies skating should be progressed through.

Absolutely agree.

 

[lzxnl]

In figure skating, the scoring potential for ladies is held lower through restriction on quads in SP than the scoring potential for gentlemen. In junior division, ladies can score as high as gentlemen of their age. It should also be possible in the senior group imo.

Just because nobody had landed 4A in competition or quintuple yet, it doesn’t make them outlawed elements. Quad jumps now had been landed by ladies in international competitions for a few years, counting juniors. It is obviously as possible and ladylike as the allowed 3A.

Quints are outlawed in the short even for the men because no one has landed them. Quad quad combinations are also outlawed in the short because no one has landed them.

Women and men peak physically at different ages. Look at how few top women are actually age ineligible for juniors compared to the men. They're biologically different; demanding that they perform the same jump content AS A WHOLE doesn't match with human biology or the current state of the sport.

I think for now quads should not be allowed in the ladies short program. For one reason, which I suppose may be somewhat "purist" of me.

I feel as though the typical training of jumps in sequential order should be followed. If doing proper technique, I think the difficulty ranking of the jumps (in terms of points awarded) is accurate: T < S < Lo < F < Lz < A. Right now we have a number of ladies choosing to skip the 3A and going for various quads. I know it is a controversial topic, but I think there is clearly a reason why they are doing so. It seems as though leniency in judging has allowed jumping a 4Lz/F to be easier than jumping a 3A or even the "easier" quads like 4T, 4S. I will give Sasha respect for going for 4T/4S, which I think are probably the most fully rotated quads in the ladies discipline as well as training her 3A. Changing the rules fully empowers those who wish to skip the 3A and go for quads.

Keeping the 3A as the highest scoring element in the SP at least gives incentive for ladies to train 3A and progress through the set progression of jumping elements. Perhaps my view is flawed though, considering it is a set progression that has been set by male skaters. Just my opinion! In my mind it has little to do with equality in the sport, and more to do with a vision for how the technical content in ladies skating should be progressed through.

I agree, if multiple skaters are having so much more trouble with a 3A compared to a 4Lz and a 4F, AND the lutz/flip technique is deplorable, that says more about the judging than the difficulty of the 3A. Controversial if you're a Russian supporter, not so controversial otherwise.

Also, it ties back to my argument of having skaters build up a balanced arsenal of jumps. 4Lz but 2A!?

There are male skaters who learn 3A after some other quads, and most all males I see in competitions have more troubles with landing a successful 3A vs their best quad.

Let's have a look at the top skaters right now. I'm going to go with the current male world standings, top 6 active skaters.
1. Nathan Chen. His 3A isn't his best jump. I'll give you that.
2. Yuzuru Hanyu. This guy never messes up his 3A unless he's completely tired from 4 or 5 quads. Look at his short program; he's messed up his 4S and 4T before, but never the 3A.
3. Shoma Uno. Shoma has splatted on 3As before, yes. But he also has the ability to do a 3A-Eu-3F combination, which I don't think he'd try on his other jumps. Also, he's landed 3A-4T, so his 3A is certainly very solid. Even when he was in his form slump, his 3A was better than his 4T.
4. Dmitri Aliev. He's popped his quads more than his axels for sure.
5. Mikhail Kolyada. Inactive for now.
6. Jason Brown. He doesn't even have a stable quad.
7. Alexander Samarin. Most of his mistakes are on his 4Lz or 4Fs, not on his 3As.

I think most of the men actually have better 3As than their best quads, which should be expected, as the new rules about repeating only one quad in the free means that there is even more incentive to have a better 3A.

 

[lariko]

Uno was one of the male skaters who jumped other quads before 3A. He notes a few times that 3A had been hard for him to learn.

Chen doesn’t mess up anything... and is in the jumping class of his own, male,female, junior or senior. Hanyu is the only one from what I had seen who has stable 3A, but falls on quads. If you go by Brown, male figure skating doesn’t need quads in either program.

My impression from all the competitions across the male division this year (and I left no stone unturned this year, watching everything on every level, form every country) is that the male skaters are as likely to fall on the quad as they are on the triple A, from age 13 to 30+

If you follow the same logic, take the top 6 senior ladies, three out of them have more or less stable 3A, Kihira, You and Kostornaya. Since it’s only three, and two of them are fish out of juniors, it should be then outlawed as well in the short.

Allowing it does not mean that Ivette Toth is required to land a quad before this week is out, it only means that the best in the field are not forbidden to use them, instead of maxing them out in the Free to counter the 3A advantage.

Maybe there is a difference in jumping ability between men and women. But if the jumps are forbidden, there is no ability for exceptional women to do what they want to do—and that’s what this rule does, and that’s why it is unfair. It makes a conclusion about women’s ability beforehand. Something that had been done for centuries with literally everything else in every other sphere.

 

[Fried]

(...) Truly, only someone with a complete ignorance about these biological differences can argue, or rather make arguments and-in some, if not of the most, cases- for the sake of hidden political agenda. Why the same people do not argue about equality for men for instance to become pregnant or to bear a child?

Hidden political agenda? Now it's getting ridiculous.

If it were true that women per se are not able to run quads because of their biological systems, the whole discussion would be unnecessary. But quads are jumped!

If only a single man had become pregnant so far, I would stand up for equality immediately if someone wanted to prohibit him from giving birth. ;-)

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

If only a single man had become pregnant so far, I would stand up for equality immediately if someone wanted to prohibit him from giving birth. ;-)

Omg...I can’t stop laughing and I’m in a public setting and absolutely losing it.

 

[lariko]

I will take a wild guess here, but I think both ladies and gentlemen are equally prohibited from giving birth or getting pregnant during the short program. Even in the ice dance.

 

[Happy Skates]

It would also be interesting to require at least one of every rotation group of jumps up to triples in the technical program (for seniors and juniors, at least). So each skater must do at least one single jump, one double jump and one triple jump (Eulers count). Prove that they have the control and finesse required to intentionally do a low-rotation jump well, no 'LOL I spend so much time on the important big jumps that I've forgotten how to do those titchy little things' excuses allowed.

Because single and double jumps are, in fact, skills and as such should be assessed in a technical program.

No elite level skater would have any trouble intentionally doing a single or double jump, and if you can do triples/quads, you don't suddenly need "control and finesse" to do doubles and singles.

 

[SkateSkates]

No elite level skater would have any trouble intentionally doing a single or double jump, and if you can do triples/quads, you don't suddenly need "control and finesse" to do doubles and singles.

This is untrue. Yuzuru Hanyu has stated he can no longer do a 2A, only a single or a triple. Sometimes skaters lose their double jumps when they learn triples.

 

[Happy Skates]

I think for now quads should not be allowed in the ladies short program. For one reason, which I suppose may be somewhat "purist" of me.

I feel as though the typical training of jumps in sequential order should be followed. If doing proper technique, I think the difficulty ranking of the jumps (in terms of points awarded) is accurate: T < S < Lo < F < Lz < A. Right now we have a number of ladies choosing to skip the 3A and going for various quads. I know it is a controversial topic, but I think there is clearly a reason why they are doing so. It seems as though leniency in judging has allowed jumping a 4Lz/F to be easier than jumping a 3A or even the "easier" quads like 4T, 4S. I will give Sasha respect for going for 4T/4S, which I think are probably the most fully rotated quads in the ladies discipline as well as training her 3A. Changing the rules fully empowers those who wish to skip the 3A and go for quads.

Keeping the 3A as the highest scoring element in the SP at least gives incentive for ladies to train 3A and progress through the set progression of jumping elements. Perhaps my view is flawed though, considering it is a set progression that has been set by male skaters. Just my opinion! In my mind it has little to do with equality in the sport, and more to do with a vision for how the technical content in ladies skating should be progressed through.

But the thing is, even if quads are allowed, there will still be a huge incentive to train a 3A first. The axel jump is the only type of jump that is required in both programs. That means that if you are not doing a 3A, you must have at least one 2A in each program, so that always will be a big reason to train them. With any other jump such as a toeloop or a salchow or a lutz, they are not required in either program; You definitely don't have to do them in the sp, and if you have enough other jumps, you don't have to do them in the free.

Also, you act as if the ladies are purposely choosing to skip the 3A. But thats just not the case with a lot of them. Sasha Trusova trained the 3A before she ever trained quads, but couldn't get it down, so she moved to quads. And to me, there's no problem with naturally having a physical preference for other jumps such as Sasha did. She should not be punished because her body is more naturally suited to do a quad toeloop than a triple axel. Its not like she ever gave up on the 3A, and in fact has it now. The 3A is already favored by being required in both programs, so imo there's no reason to favor it even more. Its just not fair to give preference to people who happen to be better at a certain jump. It would be like allowing the flip but not the lutz; It would be very bad for skaters who have great lutzes but sometimes lip (ie Liza Tuktamysheva, Gracie Gold). Even though the lutz is considered harder than the flip, there are still those that prefer it. It is the same thing with 3As and quad toeloops; the quad toeloop is a little bit harder than the 3A on average, but some skaters prefer toeloops, and it varies a lot depending on the skater. Its just completely unfair to allow one and not the other.

 

[gmyers]

Definitely. Max potential must be allowed like it in axel jumps

 

[KatGrace1925]

I think if they allow quads in ladies they have to allow more for artistry, I think this happen for men’s too.
Or do quads and don’t get points for it, just like the pairs quad throw. Way too much about jumping. Just like when athletes back logged her program with jumps for points, so many beautiful skaters to watch and being overshadowed by the teens doing quads.

I think they should definitely weight the PCS the same as the men at this point, there is no reason for it to be so different.