Should Paul Hamm Relinquish the AA Gold Medal?

[hockeyfan228]

In the hoopla, however, everyone seems to forget that had Paul not had that fall on the vault, there would not be any discussion. He would have won without any controversy. Let him share at least some responsibility in what is going on.

And athletes are now responsible for performances that create close decisions? I think Hamm had no responsibility for what is "going on," which is in the hands of the judges and supervisor. He performed within the rules; that's what he is responsible for.

 

[jesslily]

I think that the judges and all the committees should thoroughly review all the base value and deductions. If the end result does show that Korean guy deserve the gold, the IOC should give another gold to him. If the Winter Game could give dual gold to Russia and Canada, why can't this time to USA and Korea?

 

[berthes ghost]

I think that the judges and all the committees should thoroughly review all the base value and deductions. If the end result does show that Korean guy deserve the gold, the IOC should give another gold to him. If the Winter Game could give dual gold to Russia and Canada, why can't this time to USA and Korea?

Again, just to clarify. I think that medal decisions are left up to the individual sports' organizations, and only involve the IOC when they interfer with how the Olys are viewed. I agree with this.

In SLC, the IOC did NOT give out double gold. That was the brainchild of the ISU. Compelety unlike what happen in Athens, the ISU's judge admitted to cheating. The IOC, embarassed by the bad rap the Olys were getting for yet another of the ISU's curruption scandals, told them to sort it out. Why do an investigation into the charges, when the double gold was so much easier and no heads rolled? The judge who admitted to cheating is now running to be head of the powerful French Skating Union.

 

[chuckm]

I think that the judges and all the committees should thoroughly review all the base value and deductions. If the end result does show that Korean guy deserve the gold, the IOC should give another gold to him. If the Winter Game could give dual gold to Russia and Canada, why can't this time to USA and Korea?

The FIG, like the ISU, operates under rules governing competitions and objections when there is an error. According to those rules, Korean gymnast Yang is not entitled to a second gold medal, and here's why.

During a rotation, when an athlete is announced to perform his/her exercise, the Start Value (SV) of the routine is displayed on the scoreboard for everyone--including the coaches--to see. That was the case when Yang came up to do his Parallel Bar (PB) routine in the 5th rotation. The Korean coaches SAW that he was given the wrong SV. To correct that, all they had to do was go immediately to the judges and hand them a written objection, and the SV would have been corrected. But they didn't.

Why? Well maybe it was because in the previous (4th) rotation, Paul Hamm had received a 9.137 on his vault, and at that point Korean gymnasts Yang and Kim were way ahead of Paul on points, with only the PB and High Bar (HB) remaining for Hamm and Yang. Hamm had scored below 9.8 on both PB and HB in the qualification and team competitions, so it seemed Yang had a comfortable 'cushion'. At the end of the 5th rotation, only the HB remained, and Yang needed only 9.55 to win (and he had scored 9.737 on the HB in the qualification competition).

For whatever reason, the Koreans didn't file a written protest before the end of the 5th rotation as required under the rules.

In the 6th rotation, Yang and Hamm were the last two performers on the HB. Yang scored only 9.475 and Hamm, driven by an urge to make up for his failure on the vault, scored 9.837. The meet was over, and Hamm had won the gold medal.

The situation here is nothing like what happened at SLC, where the integrity of the judges was in question. The two "A" judges who estimated Yang's SV both made a mistake, and the "A" supervisor didn't catch it (he intervenes only when there is a disagreement between the two judges). Then the "B" judges who scored the performance failed to take a mandatory .2 deduction for an excess stop. The judges were inept, not dishonest. But the SV mistake COULD have been corrected if the Korean coaches had acted immediately, according to the rules. They did not.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Good post, Chuckm - After that sensible explanation, I would say:

That's it!! OVER AND OUT

Joe

 

[mzheng]

the ISU's judge admitted to cheating. The IOC, embarassed by the bad rap the Olys were getting for yet another of the ISU's curruption scandals, told them to sort it out. Why do an investigation into the charges, when the double gold was so much easier and no heads rolled? The judge who admitted to cheating is now running to be head of the powerful French Skating Union.

It was all over the NA that she 'addmitted' cheating. There was difference saying there was pressure from her federation and I cheated voting. If you all believed what she said she was under pressure. Then why don't believe that she also said she voted under her own counciase that Rusian win over at presentation mark from her vote, which was not that far fetched from other judges in the panel who also voted for Rusian win.

Too much judge controvasy in this Olympics. I tends to agree that they should kick out all the ambigouse judged events out of the Olympics. Just leave those event where time and distance are used to judge a clear cut.

As for should Paul relinquish the gold. I thought a gold given is given, he has done nothing wrong. But they should made up for Yang. Since it is not the first time duel gold rewarded in Olympics. From other thread, looks both times (synchronize swiming? pair FS?) canadians benefitted for the second Gold medal, why this time don't allow some small country hav the same benefit?

 

[Blue Bead]

There is no way that Paul Hamm should give up that gold medal! He did nothing wrong, and none of what happened concerning the failure of the judges to note the differences in the base value assigned to the Korean gymnast should require Hamm to relinquish his fairly won medal. To do so amounts to punishing him for something that clearly wasn't his fault. It's the ineptitude of the judges and the supervisor that is at fault in this mess. They are the ones who should be punished. Severly!

The other factor in all this is the Koreans knew the rules! Even if some official allegedly told them to hold off on filing their protest, they should have gone ahead and filed it anyway. Then, at least, they would have been able to state they had followed the corrrect procedure for protesting the score. Instead they waffled on the decision to file it, and as a result they share in the complexities of the situation.

Of course, the media stirred a heaping dose of acid into an already roiling cauldron; they added to the development of this nightmare for Paul Hamm. Why can't the media just report about what happened rather than exacerbating the situation as Christine Brennan has?

 

[Vash01]

Again, just to clarify. I think that medal decisions are left up to the individual sports' organizations, and only involve the IOC when they interfer with how the Olys are viewed. I agree with this.

In SLC, the IOC did NOT give out double gold. That was the brainchild of the ISU. Compelety unlike what happen in Athens, the ISU's judge admitted to cheating. The IOC, embarassed by the bad rap the Olys were getting for yet another of the ISU's curruption scandals, told them to sort it out. Why do an investigation into the charges, when the double gold was so much easier and no heads rolled? The judge who admitted to cheating is now running to be head of the powerful French Skating Union.

Officially the ISU gave the duplicate gold in SLC. However, their hand was forced by the IOC. Initially Cinquanta had said things like the ISU does not change the results of a competition. He said there would be an investigation. However, Dr.Rogge the new IOC president wanted a quick resolution that would please the Americans. He even threatened to cancel the ice dance competition if the problem was not fixed IMMEDIATELY. There was only one solution acceptable to the Americans.... a gold medal for S&P. Whatever Cinquanta may be, in this case I would not place the blame on him. I would place it on Dr.Rogge for not foreseeing how that action might impact future Olympics.

 

[Rgirl]

Touché

Our favorite gal Christine Brennan wrote a big whoop-de-do about why Paul should give his medal to the Korean guy. I think instead that Brennan should win a gold medal and give hers away.

Mathman,
That's the best suggestion regarding something Christine Brennan has written I've ever read.
Rgirl

 

[ladybug]

The judges made an error in the start value. I read that Yang's coach didn't see it. Don't know why, it was posted for all to see. Maybe he just wasn't paying attention. Proper paperwork was not filed in a timely manner. The judges made a second error. They didn't deduct for the excess stop. If both sets of judges had not made errors, Yang still would not have won the Gold.

If everyone had done their job properly, Hamm would still be the Olympic Champion. Give up his Gold Metal---most diffinately not. Why should he have to create good will for the Americans. If we are so disliked by the other countries and our athletes can't be treated fairly then maybe the USA should not attend the Olympics. Of course that also goes for our media coverage and all the money the USA generates for the Olympics.

Mathman, What could Brennan ever win a gold metal for? World's most acid mouth because that is the only thing she is good at doing.

Ladybug

 

[berthes ghost]

This is not a probelm with just the North American media. The Brittish talk about it all the time: how they build up their athletes just to tear them down later. The worst example is probably Tim Hennman. The guy is good, but not great. Why some of the papers insist on hyping him up to win Wimbolden every year is beyond most people, and why they demonize him when he doesn't is just cruel. Could you imagine if the US press hyped up Kyoko Ina to win worlds every year, and when she merely finished in the top 6 where most experts would have predicted, headlines call her sad and a loser? Now they are saying that perhaps why the Britts seem so awful is unrealistic expectations. If you're a celebrity in your own country, but only average worldwide, It's potentialy harder to motivate to improve.

 

[Mathman]

Well, I see by this morning's paper that the U.S. Gymnastics Federation filed a protest over the start value given to the American competitor in the hoop in rhythmic gymnastics. She finished 18th despite having decent scores in the other two judging components, artistic value and execution.

I can't wait to see the CoP in action in Torino!

Mathman

 

[JOHIO2]

I still stand by my original vote. Paul won that night and should keep the medal.

That said, the reason sports have federations and rules is because everyone wants the impossible -- "fair." That is also why they have rules and are continually changing them. The attempt is made to be fair but there will always be some who find fault. That is their right. They have feelings, but those feelings are best put into compromise and changing the rules so they are more fair.

After all, as the baseball fan knows, there's always next year!

 

[heyang]

My sympathies are with Paul Hamm. This poor guy just wanted to compete at Oly's and represent his country in an admirable way. He was not the cause of the judging errors, but he's the one paying the price. His Olympic experience has been tarnished by FIG. I'm sure the hoopla had a lot of impact to his decision to not stay for the remainder of the Olympics.

As Tim Dagget explained, the Korean Federation should have protested immediately. By not doing so, they opened up all the routines for re-examination. If it hadn't been for the late protest, no one would have re-watched the Korean's parallel bar routine and noticed the extra illegal hand hold. Some people are calling this nitpicking, but that's what happened. Even in football, the play must be reviewed immediately - not 2 plays later.

FIG's asking Paul to giveaway his medal is outrageous. They are trying to cast blame upon Paul to cover their own mistakes. Paul has said all along that he would abide by FIG's DECISION and FIG has refused to take the lead to fix this mess. I'm glad that the US Gymnastics Federation has finally emphasized their support of Paul.

I appreciated the crowd's support for Naumov and the remaining high bar participants. Paul Hamm handled the situation with such grace. The delay could have totally rattled him, but he showed his competitiveness once again by delivering another great high bar routine. Some people may question how Naumov's 5 release routine could be beaten by Paul's 3 - they need to realize that the hand work on the bar is just as important in gymnastics. You could say that hands and release moves in gymnastics are equivalent to edging and jumps in figure skating.

 

[Germanice]

Now, why I'm not surprised about the result?

Anke

Alexei ... NEMOV! forever!!!

 

[Piel]

Now, why I'm not surprised about the result?

Anke

Alexei ... NEMOV! forever!!!

G.S. has always been a board that has been supportive of the athlete, so it isn't surprising that more posters would support the athlete in this case. BTW, supporting Hamm is in no way NOT supporting Yang, IMO.

 

[LilyBerg]

I think it is really ridiculous that Paul has been asked to give away his gold medal. Why would he do something like that? It's not his job to clean up other people's mess. He won fairly and it's a shame that people are trying to put the blame on him. What did he do other than compete his best?

 

[Ladskater]

Who would want to keep a gold medal that they won through a judging error? In the figure skating "fiasco" as someone called it - that was an obvious dishonest judging manipulation. This was different.

A few years ago a Canadian synchro swimmer - Sylvie Frechette was denied the gold medal by a judging error. The judge had incorrectly entered her mark in the electronic scoring system. After a formal inquiry, Sylvie was finally awarded the gold medal

Here is the story:

http://www.thememoryproject.com/heroes_famous.cfm?ID=Frechette

 

[chuckm]

Who would want to keep a gold medal that they won through a judging error? In the figure skating "fiasco" as someone called it - that was an obvious dishonest judging manipulation. This was different.

In the Hamm case, the A judges entered the wrong start value for Yang's PBar routine. When Yang's PBar score was posted, the SV was posted as well, and the Korean coaches SAW that it was wrong, yet they did not protest it immediately, before the rotation ended, according to the rules (in the preliminary competition, the same coaches had initiated protests over wrong SVs for other gymnasts, so they certainly knew what had to be done to correct it).

Going into the last rotation, the Hbar, Yang and Hamm were the last two gymnasts to perform. At that point, Yang was far enough ahead of Hamm (who'd fallen on his PHorse dismount) that a score equivalent to what Yang got in the preliminaries would assure Yang of gold. But Yang unexpectedly got a low 9.475 on his Hbar, and Paul Hamm got a 9.873, putting Hamm in first and Yang in 3rd. It was only then, when the competition was over, that the Korean coaches protested the Pbar SV.

Hamm truly DID win the AA gold medal, because the Korean coaches had allowed the Pbar SV to stand instead of protesting it before that rotation ended, as required by the FIG rules. The judges made a mistake of submission, and the coaches made a mistake of omission. Hamm did his job as a gymnast and fairly won the competition.

From recent reports, apparently the Korean coaches are taking the protest to CAS and the case will be heard in September. Although the FIG is standing firm on not changing the results, they did send an infamous letter to Paul Hamm, routed through the USOC, urging him to 'do the right thing' and surrender his gold medal. In effect, FIG had the gall to ask Hamm to make restitution for the mistakes of the FIG judges, compounded by the inaction of the Korean coaches. The USOC, the IOC and US Gymnastics have condemned FIG's letter and have now backed off their willingness to allow two gold medals (which the FIG had immediately dismissed as a solution).

Paul Hamm should keep his gold medal. He did nothing wrong.

 

[curious]

Well, I see by this morning's paper that the U.S. Gymnastics Federation filed a protest over the start value given to the American competitor in the hoop in rhythmic gymnastics. She finished 18th despite having decent scores in the other two judging components, artistic value and execution.

I can't wait to see the CoP in action in Torino!

Mathman

The US are protesting a score on a sport they have never been good at that is way more ridiculous than the hamm debacle. The guy has already been punished no wheaties box cover for him. The Gymnastics Federation supports him but because of the scandal he is not going to cash on that gold medal like carly patterson and others talk about hypocrisy.