Should We Give Weir and Sandhu One More Chance?

[kittycat26]

Well, you might be right, but I don't take such a devious view. I think Bradley was placed ahead of Weir because he skated better (the performance of his life), not because of a sinister plot to dis Johnny. Same with the pairs. Same with Mirai Nagasu finishing ahead of the next annointed one, Caroline Zhang.

I am not suggesting there was a sinister plot of any kind. I am suggesting it is an interesting sign that the judges were not willing to hold Weir in 2nd place in a situation they easily could have. I am not suggesting the verdict was wrong in terms of what was fair for the performances. I was suggesting it could be a sign of his less secure position to what it previously was.

Or in other words if several guys, potentialy even guys who are journeymen without that much promise to speak of(eg-Bradley)skate great competitions, and Weir has a moderate competion, they seem willing to drop him from the World team even in situations they easily dont have to. If it were Lysacek in the same situation I strongly imagine you see Lysacek in 2nd place and Bradley in 3rd, using the PCS to attain such an outcome.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

The Pointless Topic

I had no idea this topic would create such a rumbling in the hearts of people.

As one of the few fans of figure skating, watching that Nationals debut of Johnny and thinking he is the sports future while others were only commenting about Tim Gable and Michael Weiss. The following year Johnny went into the boards and I begged the forum fans to send him a note of encouragement on his web site. Few responded. Then along comes Otonal the next season and wow.

This thread was not intended as a put down of either Sandhu or Weir but a 'come to ones senses' of their progress in the figure skating world. It's not easy to see a favorite go by the wayside.

My own opinion of this topic is that both skaters had some brilliant skates but I don't think they can better what was their best. They have reached their levels of competence and it is just a matter of time.

Joe

 

[yelyoh]

I think Sandhu's time has come and gone. Weir does not seem to believe in himself. I still refer to what the eurosports tech guy said that Johnny was doing quads and quad combos well in practice but rushed his prep fpr the attempt in competiton due to nerves. I think JW has the potential to do well but he has to get his nerves together and believe in himself. If he does not do it by next year, I think he will be left ln the dust if not nationally then internationally. The US men will most likely lose that third spot and JW will most likely stay home. And yes I will have lost patience in him. Pity because I love his skating, I much prefer him to Evan.

 

[Vodka Shot]

In a completely fair world that may have been true. However I do believe the US Skating Assocation was ready for a new National Champion, and while Evan still had to skate, and they would not ignore a great skate by Johnny and a flawed enough performance by Lysacek, this years Nationals was always Evan's to lose. Are you forgetting Evan Lysacek was awarded a proposterous 169.89 directly before Weir skated? There was going to be no floor wiping with Mr. Lysacek that night regardless of any preference individuals such as ourselves may have for Weir's skating.

Yeah, you're totally right. I think Johnny was doomed at nationals before he even skated his short and then after seeing them put Evan 1st after the short (when Johnny's short was clearly the better skate IMO) I knew then for sure....they were going to give it to Evan no matter what. Not only would Johnny had to have been PERFECT but Evan would had to have made a few mistakes for him to win; this is just my speculation but I believe it's true. However, I would have liked to have seen a tougher fight from Johnny regardless.

 

[ranjake]

i hope johnny won't let the usfsa affect him like that. i think if he skates to his highest level...he can win. i really like evan, too...but i'll never forget how haunted i was by johnny's first "otonel"...to me it was art...and he can get there again. he acts like a smart a** sometimes, and maybe the usfsa gets sick of it. but johnny is young. i hope as he matures he will see the wisdom of filtering himself occasionally. not to be fake, but to be smart. i wish he'd consider the sports psychologist. i think johnny is an emotional guy. i think he could sort out a lot of self doubt by talking to someone objective.

i don't know much about e-man; but i have surely enjoyed watching him over the years. when he was on, there was nobody like him.

 

[kittycat26]

Yeah, you're totally right. I think Johnny was doomed at nationals before he even skated his short and then after seeing them put Evan 1st after the short (when Johnny's short was clearly the better skate IMO) I knew then for sure....they were going to give it to Evan no matter what. Not only would Johnny had to have been PERFECT but Evan would had to have made a few mistakes for him to win; this is just my speculation but I believe it's true. However, I would have liked to have seen a tougher fight from Johnny regardless.

I am definitely with you on what would have been neccessary in the minds of the judges at this years U.S Nationals for Johnny to keep his title over Evan. It is unfortunate but definitely true in my mind as well. I had that feeling going in, and like you the short program confirmed it for me as well. Despite the feelings of strong favor towards Evan before the event even started, after seeing both short programs I felt convinced regardless Johnny had to come out in the lead. When he didnt, even with a far superior quality performance I knew the event was all but a done deal.

As much as we harp on Johnny for being an underachiever, for not wanting to win enough, for not being enough of a battler in competition, these type of things are hard on his psyche. Toller Cranston speak of how artist types are very sensitive, they need to be handled and treated with care. I do believe Weir is this type. To have it made obvious to him, for all practical purposes, that his own countrys skating established has all been determined his main national rival is taking away his National title, and barring major mistakes from his main rival there is nothing he can possibly do to change that, must be very hard on him emotionaly and further draining on his enthusiasm and motivation. I think the tears in the kiss and cry were not only for his performance and loss of his title, but the reality of a situation the skating establishment of his own country had determined before his own National Championships, a title he holds dear to his heart having won 3 times in a row, and to date being his biggest honor in the sport. He might well have felt like crying when he heard the proposterous, almost repulsive, score the judges awarded Evan Lysacek directly before he skated. I admire him in a certain way for even holding it together as well as he managed after that. Evan's proposterously enormous score with its jacked up GOE and PCS all over the board was like a big middle finger to Johnny Weir I believe, given all the negative press in his direction leading into the event.

Why the U.S feel the need to push Evan forward so forcefully and attempt to push Johnny to the side is beyond me. I understand the U.S wanting to promote who they believe their best medal hopefuls are. However putting all their bags in the Evan Lysacek basket will prove to be a mistake I believe. Part of their putting all their support behind Evan could be due to the thinking that he has the consistency, they have trust in him due to that consistency and doing COP-friendly programs. They do not have that same faith in Johnny, and unfortunately on this count I can understand that part. However the flawed reasoning comes in that with Evan mastering consistency, and base values, they then think they can push his quality marks such as GOE and PCS to the top heights of all international rivals through messages sent through escalation at domestic events, and excessive marketing by the U.S media. This is where they are mistaken, international judges are not fooled nor will they be in the future. Evan does indeed score very well on his GOE and PCS abroad(too well IMO)yet even so still does not earn quality marks in those areas that are so much as to challenge the quality marks garned by the likes of Joubert, Lambiel, Plushenko, and the young Japanese. Thus the U.S are putting themselves in a position of relying on Evan's consistency and help given to Evan by enough of those particular skaters, for the U.S to gather medals in the mens singles, should they continue to put all their support behind Mr. Lysacek. Sure investing in Weir may be risky, but investing all your support in Lysacek is risky too, as reliance on certain levels of inconsistency from the elite international field to keep medal hopes alive is putting yourself in a shaky position.

Johnny Weir on the other hand, if aided and supported and somehow able to come into his own, is more likely to be able to compete with those aforementioned big guns in quality marks such as GOE and PCS. Everything should be done to encourage and support him to gain the needed competitive drive and focus needed, to compose the needed base values in his programs, not just push him aside to give all the stage to Evan Lysacek as their golde boy. To give up on him and put all your eggs in the Evan Lysacek basket is not something I consider a wise investment, and would hope the U.S skating establishment sees the light sooner rather then later.

 

[Jaana]

Thank you for saying that so directly, Jaana!! I FINALLY understand what you have been saying all this time. Of course, it is not important to YOU who wins U.S. Nationals, any more than it is important to the average U.S. skating fan who wins the national championship of Finland. That's just common sense.

But it is important to the competitors.

LOL, I don´t think you got it.... Yes, a National champion (of what ever country) is a National champion, but being a World champion (or a World medalist) is something much above that. That is a more prestigious title. In Nationals a skater is competing only against skaters from that one country and at Worlds a skater meets the best skaters from every participating country. That is the difference between being a National champion or a World champion (or World medalist).

The hype being (or never having been one, LOL) a National champion is really ridiculous, in my opinion. And what is worse, it is really sad that because of that hype the skaters put too much effort to win the Nationals title and in consequence are peaking too early and not at Worlds. That happened to Lysacek this year, in my opinion. He put all he had into the freeskate performance, and skaters are rarely able to repeat a perfomance like that in one season.

 

[Tonichelle]

Well, you might be right, but I don't take such a devious view. I think Bradley was placed ahead of Weir because he skated better (the performance of his life), not because of a sinister plot to dis Johnny. Same with the pairs. Same with Mirai Nagasu finishing ahead of the next annointed one, Caroline Zhang.

Scores at Nationals are always somewhat inflated across the board, just on general pronciples. You don't want to send your champions off to worlds with the message, these guys are crap, but it's all we've got.

I love everybit of this post... especially the last sentence!!!! and with that I am going to bed lol

LOL, I don´t think you got it.... Yes, a National champion (of what ever country) is a National champion, but being a World medalist is something much above that. In Nationals a skater is competing only against skaters from that one country and at Worlds a skater meets the best skaters from every participating country. That is the difference between being a National champion or a World champion (World medalist).

well then, US competitors just set their own bar too low... because I don't think there's any national championship for this country that winning it ISN'T a big deal...

to be the BEST in YOUR COUNTRY and being their #1 pick for a competition IS a big deal.

ok I really am going to bed now lol

 

[seafoam]

Can Johnny do it? I have no doubt. There is nothing at all wrong with his skating skills. If he brought out the quality of jumps he has in practice, he would win it all. Nobody has the perfection of the quad combos he has done in practice--they are light as air and absolutely gorgeous.

Buuut--that's practice. He needs to get it together and lay it down in competition. Can he do it? I certainly hope so, but I don't know. I think if he does, he will be rewarded, no matter how much he may irritate TPTB. I think he should have been placed ahead of Lysacek in the SP at Nationals, but the difference was not that great. And Lysacek clearly out-skated him in the LP. So I don't know if the charges of bias hold up that well, although of course, I do think that Lysacek is more in favor with the USFSA.

I was encouraged that his spins were so much better at Worlds than they had been in earlier comps. I was beginning to think that he had lost the ability to complete high-levels spins.

While I think the urge to bury Johnny is premature, he really needs to step up to the plate next season. I hope he does get the chance to work with TT. Not that she is an infallible miracle worker--just look at Griazev. But Johnny really seems to click with her--both choreographically and in terms of training. I think that, together, they could create programs that would put him back on top--if (and that's a big if) he wants it enough and is prepared to do the kind of training he needs to keep up with the Jouberts (and Takahashis and Lambiels).

Sandhu--I dunno. I love watching him, and would prefer watching a poor Sandhu performance to a flawless on from a less interesting skater. But, for one thing, his age is against him. I'd love to see him skate in a show that showcased his unique talents the way they ought to be.

 

[temperboy28]

If he brought out the quality of jumps he has in practice, he would win it all.

If Johnny did his best he would win it all as in what? The Nelberhorn Trophy?

Some of you are truly deluded. The real top skaters of today have passed Johnny by. Joubert and Lambiel passed him by long ago. Buttle jump problems and all has beaten him since I can remember now. Lysacek has buried him as the top U.S guy. Takahashi and Oda are pulling away by the day even if Oda had a bad Worlds(still beat Johnny though).

Johnny at his best will do something grand at Worlds? Well are you expecting a splat-for-all or something. Is he going to skate in a flight before they put too much slippery water on the ice surface?

 

[temperboy28]

Both are pretty much done.

Bullseye!! :agree:

 

[seafoam]

Hi Rex. How's that Superbowl prediction workin' out for you?

 

[Ladskater]

We all know the promise they both brought to the skating world and skating fans, but it seems there isn't much new technical since then and programs are erratic.

For me, I'm at the point where I am not looking forward to either of them for setting the blaze of glory. I'm just indifferent about them.

Joe

I can't comment on Weir, but as a Canadian fan, I think it's time for Emanuel to hang up his competitive blades and hit the ice show scene. There is no denying Sandhu's talent; however he is just not getting anywhere on the podium. Skate Canada gave him one more chance at the Olympics and this season has been somewhat dismal for Emanuel. There are new Canadian male skaters on the horizon who are better jumpers than Emanuel and they should be given the chance to develop just as he has been given. There is no use wasting any more time or money. I hope Skate Canada "reads the riot act" to Emanuel. The only other suggestion I could make for him is to switch disciplines and try ice dance. I do think Emanuel would be a great ice dancer, but the again there is his ego.....

 

[Mathman]

This is where they are mistaken, international judges are not fooled nor will they be in the future.

That is my very point in a nutshell, and that is why I don't pay much attention to all these point-shaving conspiracy theories. If national federations try to push one skater and hold back another, I don't think that has much effect on the international scene, French judges notwithstanding.

I seem to be the only figure skating fan in the world who thinks that most of the time the judges try to do their job in a conscientious and professional manner.

Marketing strategy, however, is another thing. I do think that USFS tried to market the "rivalry" between Lysacek and Weir to try to stir up some semblence of fan interest in men's figure skating in the U.S. It's a hard sell, but I don't blame them for trying.

As for the lament that the top U.S. guys aren't as good as Plushenko, Lambiel, Joubert or Takahashi -- well, that's life. You send who you have and hope for the best. (Go Alissa!)

 

[Mathman]

The hype being (or never having been one, LOL) a National champion is really ridiculous, in my opinion. And what is worse, it is really sad that because of that hype the skaters put too much effort to win the Nationals title and in consequence are peaking too early and not at Worlds. That happened to Lysacek this year, in my opinion. He put all he had into the freeskate performance, and skaters are rarely able to repeat a perfomance like that in one season.

And yet...I can still see why they do it. Michelle Kwan never won an Olympic gold medal, but she made more money in figure skating than anyone since Sonia Henie (who made her money in movies). This is because, with nine U.S. championships, she was the face of figure skating in the U.S. market for a decade. Any time an opportunity came along to make money in the sport, there was Michelle, front and center.

Sasha Cohen became a millionaire riding shotgun for Michelle, and finally got the title in 2006. Nicole Bobek won one U.S. championship in 1995 and parlayed that into a successful pro career. So did Rudy Galindo. For the last ten years Rudy has skated alongside Olympic champion Victor Petrenko and others in SOI, very likely at a higher salary. None of these American skaters was ever world champion. Now it's Lysacek. Whatever does or doesn't happen for him the rest of his life, he will always be billed as U.S. champion.

Important means important to somebody. I think a national title is important to the competitors, whether we are impressed by it or not.

 

[Jaana]

Sasha Cohen became a millionaire riding shotgun for Michelle, and finally got the title in 2006. Nicole Bobek won one U.S. championship in 1995 and parlayed that into a successful pro career. So did Rudy Galindo. For the last ten years Rudy has skated alongside Olympic champion Victor Petrenko and others in SOI, very likely at a higher salary. None of these American skaters was ever world champion. Now it's Lysacek. Whatever does or doesn't happen for him the rest of his life, he will always be billed as U.S. champion.

Important means important to somebody. I think a national title is important to the competitors, whether we are impressed by it or not.

Yes, but the skaters you mention were something else also than just US National champions and are being billed as such, aren´t they? I mean that Kwan won several (five?) World titles plus Olympic silver and bronze. Bobek won Worlds bronze medal and so did Galindo. Cohen won Olympic silver and two Worlds silver and one bronze.

Lysacek has won two World bronze medals, which surely will be billed?

 

[waxel]

I do think that Johnny deserves "another chance." I don't think his best days are over by any means. However, I do think that Eman's eligible competition days may be in the past. He seems to have lost his passion for it. Perhaps it's time for him to explore some of his other myraid interests. I do hope he continues to skate--- perhaps if other top eligible skaters go "pro" there may be greater interest in pro competitions?

 

[dutchherder]

I agree with Mathman. The topic of this thread is so pointless.

The skaters give themselves the chance. The audience simply watches. How to pretentious to suggest otherwise.

~Z

Actually, not so much. If it weren't for fans, figure skating wouldn't exist. If it weren't for fans watching, there would be no funding or televised events. How many skaters have you heard say that they were inspired to start skating by watching it on tv? Many! If that opportunity were gone, and no one ever saw skating, how many new skaters would there be?

 

[Mathman]

Yes, but the skaters you mention were something else also than just US National champions and are being billed as such, aren´t they? I mean that Kwan won several (five?) World titles plus Olympic silver and bronze. Bobek won Worlds bronze medal and so did Galindo. Cohen won Olympic silver and two Worlds silver and one bronze.

Lysacek has won two World bronze medals, which surely will be billed?

Well, Champions on Ice will be coming to Detroit on April 20th, so I'll get a program and check out how they are billed and get back to you, LOL. I went to the COI website, but the bios are not listed that way.

However, on the SOI website it says:

Alexei Yagudin, Olympic gold medalist

Sale and Pelletier, Olympic gold medalist

Todd Eldredge, World champion (no mention of 6-time U.S. champion)

Ekaterina Gordeeva, two-time Olympic gold medalist

Yuka Sato, World champion

Michael Weiss, two-time world bronze medalist (no mention of three-time U.S. champion)

Ina and Zimmerman, World bronze medalist (no mention of many-time U.S. champions)

Steven Cousins, eight-time British champion (I guess he had no world podium finishes)

Jennifer Robinson, six-time Canadian champion

Angela Nikodinov, two-time U.S. bronze medalist (This one is interesting because she was also the Skate America champion one year, which is usually her first credit. When Alissa Czisny skated last year on a couple of the COI stops she was billed as: Skate Canada gold medalist and Skate America silver medalist. This year they will be able to say, U.S. bronze medalist )

Ilia Kulik, Olympic gold medalist

Kurt Browning, four-time world champion

So, especially based on Michael Weiss and Ina and Zimmerman, I will have to say that you are right about the relative importance of making the world podium versus a U.S. championship.

 

[Tonichelle]

yes teh national champion title takes a back seat to a bigger/more prestigious title... but that doesn't lessen the importance in teh skaters eyes...