Shun Sato | Page 13 | Golden Skate

Shun Sato

I could see only the very end of his skate (not even the slow motion), his Triple Axel didn't go well it seems, and his Components are still way too low for such a program (I must say, even if Yuma Kagiyama's Performance score was far too high, he deserved his 9.46 in Skating Skills and the Composition, although scored too high, is really very good and it was a superb skate, it's the first time I see him deserving 100 in a Short Program), so I would still have seen Shun Sato at the same level as, or slightly over Yuma Kagiyama, if his Components were as good in this skate as they were in his other outings this season. Congratulations!
I hope that his Free Skating will be even better, which he can I'm sure!
 
Hello, joining everbody here. I think Shun going third in PCS was criminal, but we are used to them being stingy on goe. Very unfortunate on the triple axel, tiny mishap in balance after the landing. He didn't look comfortable going into it. Yuma had a perfect short, to be honest-even though I never be a fan of his rotational position (if he had worse skating skills he would wipe out the same way Kao Miura does often), he delivered jumps, spins, and performance. Seeing Ilia after that makes me wonder how the judges could see the same thing and still give him such high PCS scores, especially for a performance that had more obvious errors than Shun's.


Now, for a honest discussion : I agree with Shun not scoring 100 *here* based on the precedent they have set, but he *absolutely* should have won both the short and Free at NHK. It is very obvious that they want to set up Yuma as the top Japanese man (and nothing wrong with that, he currently is), but it is very jarring to see Shun delivering two perfect short programs at his GPs and scoring 94 and 96, while Yuma with an invalid Spin once scoring 98 and 88 with a fall and a step out. Ilia scored 94 with 3 very messy jumping passes and PCS he shouldn't have been getting, but that's just beating a dead horse at this point. His base value speaks for himself I guess, and when you have Grassl scoring 94 (whose jumps are of worse quality kind of).... I can understand the ordinals.

My main question is: Why do the judges never want to go with Shun when he goes clean, even? Because he should have broken 100 in the short and 190 in the free already, if we are being very honest. Kagiyama is a quality skater, yes- but is the disparity between a clean Shun with a higher base value in the short (96 at NHK) and clean Yuma here (108 at GPF) that big?? I don't know. If you know that the judges will give you 100+ in the short if you go clean vs having to hope to get close to that mark even with a clean skate... you approach the competition with a different mentality.

Edit: His lutz and combo were totally fine, even if not as smooth Yuma's may have looked to be. And seeing the GOEs they give other skaters... he could have broken 100 regardless lmao.
 
I am still waiting for Sato to outpace Kagiyama. Kagiyama's jumping difficulties should theoretically eventually catch up to him, since he doesn't gain enough height. Once that happens, Sato will get higher PCS, if he doesn't burn out prior to that. It's kind of an outlasting game, which one accumulate more injury and how long Kagiyama can sustain 4S and 4T w/o losing 3A.
 
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lariko said:
I am still waiting for Sato to outpace Kagiyama. Kagiyama's jumping difficulties should theoretically eventually catch up to him, since he doesn't gain enough height. Once that happens, Sato will get higher PCS, if he doesn't burn out prior to that. It's kind of an outlasting game, which one accumulate more injury and how long Kagiyama can sustain 4S and 4T w/o losing 3A.
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Issue is, if we are going according to what even Yuma fans say skating should be, Jumps should *not* be tied to PCS. Yuma scoring as high as he does now, with only a 4S and 4T that has its off days, is debatable. Ilia, even if getting rescored PCS, wins on the quality of his jumps alone, mostly. Class of the field, all that, we get it. But Yuma getting high GOEs on other elements in programs that were riddled with mistakes, when you usually get a PCS and GOE cap for even a turnout out of a jump... , China GP , NHK and Finlandia had questionable scoring imo.

And funny that you mention injuries. Because Shun injured himself while trying to add a quad flip to his layout.
 
This is a bit out of topic... I believe that among present day Japanese skaters, who are a big number in a rather small margin of (high) level, for two clean programs, Shun Sato is now the best because his Components are very near the best in everything, deserving 9s or above, and he's got more Quadruple jumps; Kazuki Tomono still has slightly better Components but not enough to compensate the jump difference; Sota Yamamoto has less projection but everything else as good. Then, come Kao Miura (whose Components are less good overall) along with Yuma Kagiyama who has really excellent Skating Skills but can't get as difficult a Composition and doesn't have as good a Presentation because he doesn't express the music as well yet (I mean in comparison with the first Japanese skaters in the list...) and his upper body and arm moves don't have the precision and explosiveness needed. His progresses have been great in all Components, so I still perceive him as a progressing skater. Then there's Tatsuya Tsuboi whom the Federation wants to impose on the rest. Why?
Next year or the year after? will come Rio Nakata, also a Federation favourite but he's really good and I think that he won't need overscoring to get a place among the best...
 
DizzyFrenchie said:
This is a bit out of topic... I believe that among present day Japanese skaters, who are a big number in a rather small margin of (high) level, for two clean programs, Shun Sato is now the best because his Components are very near the best in everything, deserving 9s or above, and he's got more Quadruple jumps; Kazuki Tomono still has slightly better Components but not enough to compensate the jump difference; Sota Yamamoto has less projection but everything else as good. Then, come Kao Miura (whose Components are less good overall) along with Yuma Kagiyama who has really excellent Skating Skills but can't get as difficult a Composition and doesn't have as good a Presentation because he doesn't express the music as well yet (I mean in comparison with the first Japanese skaters in the list...) and his upper body and arm moves don't have the precision and explosiveness needed. His progresses have been great in all Components, so I still perceive him as a progressing skater. Then there's Tatsuya Tsuboi whom the Federation wants to impose on the rest. Why?
Next year or the year after? will come Rio Nakata, also a Federation favourite but he's really good and I think that he won't need overscoring to get a place among the best...
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Oh interesting that you would put Kao in the same Tier as Yuma. I'd still have the latter down as the one with more refinement. Agree with Kazuki and Sota- they both have a great quality to their skating. Not sure about Tatsuya... I think he either won Junior Worlds or Nats once? Or medaled ? Tbh not sure.
Regarding Rio- class of the field, with a strong rival in Minkyu. He has the edge in Jumps so far. His program composition is good too- the presentation will continue to develop, I hope.
 
I feel that Kagiyama's jumps, just like his skating, checks some bullets superbly, but miss other by quite a bit. His jumps lack height, they are never spectacular, he telegraphs quite often the entry and other times muscles them. His glide and edges are all wonderful, and i know the Japanese are obsessed over that more than anything, but glides and edges are not artistry. He has never created impression of immersion into skate or matched bladestroke to music in a show of musicality. He is fast, but not spirited. His programs are always drills, and he is as much an accountant on ice as the next guy. Sato at least to me seems to have more of a spark/aspiration to convey something. Higher jumps, better impression of elegance, some sort of an intrigue. His spins are not quite there, since i guess he also skates on the upper edge of his abilities, but on the balance, I believe Sato has more to offer.
 
lariko said:
I feel that Kagiyama's jumps, just like his skating, checks some bullets superbly, but miss other by quite a bit. His jumps lack height, they are never spectacular, he telegraphs quite often the entry and other times muscles them. His glide and edges are all wonderful, and i know the Japanese are obsessed over that more than anything, but glides and edges are not artistry. He has never created impression of immersion into skate or matched bladestroke to music in a show of musicality. He is fast, but not spirited. His programs are always drills, and he is as much an accountant on ice as the next guy. Sato at least to me seems to have more of a spark/aspiration to convey something. Higher jumps, better impression of elegance, some sort of an intrigue. His spins are not quite there, since i guess he also skates on the upper edge of his abilities, but on the balance, I believe Sato has more to offer.
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I find myself agreeing to this- it's difficult for me to connect with his programs at times. When he is on, he is on. But you feel the nerves going in some skates at times; he then rushes at times and the magic is lost. One skater, who even when having a completely off day can get the audience immersed into the program I feel is Junhwan Cha.
Shun.. I don't know how to explain it, but you feel the conviction in his skates. At NHK, he didn't feel like missing on time (the only stumble being that +2T). And man, he has tried so hard to get rid of the "unemotional quadster" tag they give jump-proficient skaters. What's so bad about being an introverted skater? We don't need programs where everyone is smiling or being overly emotional all the time (and this is not a judgement on the skaters that do perform like that )- it is not the only way of interpreting music on the ice.
 
freedomlover said:
Oh interesting that you would put Kao in the same Tier as Yuma. I'd still have the latter down as the one with more refinement. Agree with Kazuki and Sota- they both have a great quality to their skating. Not sure about Tatsuya... I think he either won Junior Worlds or Nats once? Or medaled ? Tbh not sure.
Regarding Rio- class of the field, with a strong rival in Minkyu. He has the edge in Jumps so far. His program composition is good too- the presentation will continue to develop, I hope.
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That's a bit my imagination because I don't remember effectually two perfect programs from him in the same competition? They're so different, with somehow opposite strengths and weaknesses... And regarding him this season, and given that the Japanese Federation also seems to obsess on consistency, I wonder if it wouldn't have been better to skip it altogether to heal his injuries, or at least skip the Grand Prix, but I guess that with the field depth Japan has it's really difficult.
I'm still to watch Minkyu, I hope I can watch the Junior Final this Weekend.
I wouldn't say that Yuma Kagiyama's jumps are smallish, I think that they're medium, but of course he can't hit the very high and very long bullet, which theoretically caps his Grades of Execution at 3.
 
Shun, under pressure this season, hasn't even faltered once. Even with that turnout on the 3A- Yuma had more mistakes on the jumps than Shun had all season. The JSF should be pushing him. Yuma's advantage at the last Olympics was the fact that most of the pressure was on Uno and Hanyu. This time though... He is the no1 man. And you notice it.
 
As long as he's robbed in scoring... Other skaters are given points they don't deserve, particularly with uncalled errors, while Shun Sato has to win every point of score without even been certain of getting it on the score sheet...
I can't watch the Free Skate today, but in the Short Program alone, one skater got away with two q calls (usually he gets none) whereas three (not two) of his jumps were in fact underrotated, egregious Components ahead of Shun Sato's although the latter was sooo much better...
Congratulations for his Bronze in such circumstances! I don't know yet if he deserved Silver or Gold, I'll try to get an idea...
 
freedomlover said:
Shun, under pressure this season, hasn't even faltered once. Even with that turnout on the 3A- Yuma had more mistakes on the jumps than Shun had all season. The JSF should be pushing him. Yuma's advantage at the last Olympics was the fact that most of the pressure was on Uno and Hanyu. This time though... He is the no1 man. And you notice it.
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Yuma's father and coach is from Nagoya, where the JSF power seems to lay. But I don't think that many people envy him for training with such a father?
 
Now I understand that I wasn't clear. Yuma Kagiyama's coach is his father, this coach and father is from Nagoya, and Nagoya skaters are generally favoured by the Japanese federation. I believe that nobody envies Yuma Kagiyama for training with his father though, because his father has a reputation, and I won't go further here. I only wish Yuma Kagiyama could enjoy more training outside.
Shun Sato is from Sendai and I don't think that he has any family skating connection.
 
yfan1 said:
Sato is nearly guaranteed an Olympic spot, unless I'm mistaken. Hope he gives it his best shot.
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There is literally nobody else who could possibly challenge him for it at this moment, and they will have their final selections at nationals really soon. Miura was the only one who stood a chance, but his injuries really hold him back. The question is who is the third man.
 
DizzyFrenchie said:
Now I understand that I wasn't clear. Yuma Kagiyama's coach is his father, this coach and father is from Nagoya, and Nagoya skaters are generally favoured by the Japanese federation. I believe that nobody envies Yuma Kagiyama for training with his father though, because his father has a reputation, and I won't go further here. I only wish Yuma Kagiyama could enjoy more training outside.
Shun Sato is from Sendai and I don't think that he has any family skating connection.
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Ah, now I get it. My english comprehesion skills left me after the womens free skate, unfortunately. Nagoya skaters being favoured unfortunately is a tale as old as time. I don't know the rumors about Yuma's father, but I can imagine he is tense. I did competitive sports and indeed, there is a difference you can see when... lets say the parent is pushing the child more. What I am genuinely, genuinely upset by is that Shun can't get the confidence you get out of major win over a rival the way Yuma had it (at some times, you might say it was undeserved.) Even though Shun convincingly won the JGPF in 2019, him being 2nd at Junior Nationals meant he wasn't going to the YOG. Yuma wins that competition... and then ever since... well. Ahead of his first Winter Olympic Games, winning at NHK (and he did bring his A-game) would have been a huge confidence boost.

(took a pause, sorry for the long response.

I mean, even when you look at scores this season. Highlighted when they competed at the same event, GOE, PCS and mistakes that needed to be considered that got lower GOE.

SP for Shun: China: 94.13 (clean) | NHK: 96.67 (q on the Lutz) | GPF: 98.06 (minor mistake)

China 4Lz, 4T+3T, 3Ax 2 Level 4 spins 1 Level 3, Stsq2 | Base Value : 45.90; GOE: 7.38; PCS: 40.85

Japan 4Lzq, 4T+3T, 3Ax 1 Level 4 spin, 2 Level 3, Stsq3 | Base Value: 46.52; GOE: 7.47; PCS: 43.00 (the Chinese and Slovakian Judges had him winning the Short, for the Chinese, even breaking 100 this time.)

GPF 4Lz, 4T+3T, 3Ax (3-turn at worst), all spins level 4, Stsq3 | Base Value : 47.00; GOE: 8.46; PCS: 42.60 (French and Canadian Judges having him break 102 and 100)

SP for Yuma: NHK: 98.58 (invalid CCsp) | Finlandia: 88.16 (fall and step out) | GPF: 108.77 (clean)

Japan : 4T+3T, 4S, 3Ax 1 Level 4 spin, Level 3 and invalid CCsp, Stsq3 | Base Value : 41.60; GOE: 12.19; PCS 44.79

Finlandia : 4T+3T, 4Sq (fall) , 3Ax (step out) 2 Spins Level 4, 1 Level 3, Stsq4 | Base Value : 45.60; GOE: 0.10; PCS: 43.66 (again!, with a fall)

GPF: 4T+3T, 4S, 3Ax All Level 4 | Base Value: 45.80; GOE: 15.74; PCS: 47.23

Free Skate for Shun: China (clean) | NHK (2T instead of planned 3T) | GPF (clean!!!)

China: 4Lz, 3A-Eu-3S, 4T+3T, 4T, 3A-2A+SEQx, 3Lox, 3Lzx 2 Level 4 spins 1 Level 3, Stsq3, Chsq1 | Base Value: 87.41; GOE: 13.33 ; PCS: 83.25

Japan: 4Lz, 3A-Eu-3S, 4T+2T, 4T, 3A-2A+SEQx , 3Lox, 3Lzx 2 Level 4 spins 1 Level 3, Stsq3, Chsq1 | Base Value: 84.51; GOE: 17.95; PCS: 86.58

GPF: 4Lz, 3A-Eu-3S, 4T+3T, 4T, 3A-2A+SEQx, 3Lox, 3Lzx everything Level 4, Chsq1 | Base Value: 88.41; GOE: 18.80; PCS: 86.81
(and this was his best skate interpretation wise)


Free Skate for Yuma: NHK (Fall , 2T instead of planned 3T) | Finlandia (Fall, messy 3F without planned 3Lo, 3A+2T) | GPF: (2Lo instead of 3Lo, messy landing, same with 3A)

Japan : 4S, 4T(fall), 3Lz,3A-Eu-3S, 4T+2Tx, 3F+3LOx , 3Ax everything Level 4, Chsq1 | Base Value : 86.70; GOE: 13.08; PCS 89.88

Finlandia : 4S,4T+3T, 3Lz,3A-Eu-3S, 3Fx 4T(fall), 3A+2Tx everything Level 4, Chsq1 | Base Value : 85.51 ; GOE: 9.50 ; PCS: 88.28

GPF: 4S, 4T+2T, 3Lz,3A-Eu-3S, 4Tx, 3F+2LOx, 3Ax everything Level 4, Chsq1 | Base Value: 83.05; GOE: 17.68; PCS: 92.91

Yuma has been beaten by Shun in the Free Skate in every competition they've been in, but is within a range of a point solely because of his GOEs and PCS scores as well as his spin and stsq levels. And when you look at the short program, that GOE gap gets even more ridiculous. Judges are extremely stingy with Shun in comparison to Yuma, when there isn't much of a difference in their jumps. I understand giving Yuma a 3-5 point margin in the short on average, but based on the quality with which they have delivered their programs this season, Shun should have beaten him overall, at least by 6-7 points at NHK. That that didn't happen is straight up ridiculous.

He has been messy. And if Shaidorov and Adam had delivered this season, they'd be in bigger problems.
 
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