Sinitsina/Katsalapov future prospects

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

thats true but its all ober now ans It all worked out for the best for her so I was wondering how there could be a "poor Elena" now. Maybe then but not anymore.



Lots of people were pretty sure I/k would win or medal at NHK 2013 or 2014 worlds or win 2014 euros or 2013 euros and it never happened. Not to mention rusian nationals over b/s.

I/k were a constant failure but maybe you would say disappointment? Underperforming team?

They had their share of problems, but they won the Olympic bronze medal and a gold in team.

As for EC2014, they lost to the eventual World Champions. As for EC2013, they lost to B/S, the eventual World bronze medalists (behind D/W and V/M who were in their own class).

In four seasons as seniors, they medalled at three Euros. And as for Sochi, they were not a lock for bronze and had to beat B/S, C/L, P/B and W/P for that ... And in spite of a rocky season they skated as well as they could in the Olympics.

Plenty of skaters have been "expected" winners but don't deliver... Kwan in 2006 Olympics, B&K 2002 Olympics, Chan 2014 Olympics... Even Kim at Worlds after her Olympic win had a terrible Worlds, similar to I/K having a bad 2014 Worlds in spite of solid Sochi performances. Doesn't make them any less notable.

I/K winning the OBM was a huge highlight of their career, along with team event gold. Anyone who says a team who earned an Olympic medal (two, with the team event) is a constant failure is just being a deluded hater.

 

[elif]

Each of them has their own face, so now thankfully no-one will be talking of an I/K reunion and no other team(s) will have to be split to accommodate either S or K. Everything could not have worked out better IMHO. If they don't go to worlds or EC, S/K that is, not a problem. I find that in comparison to the paso doble the Ravensburger waltz is a bit more challenging due to the multiple twizzles and sharp turns required by the girl. Also to really give it that soft lilting quality it will need exceptionally clean edges and soft knees. So this years results at nationals could be a blessing in disguise for S/K. As for I/Z their work this year, especially their step sequences has already prepared them well for next season. Example of RW, D/L 2006. Only God alone knows how difficult the key points will be.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiNsMJaPzn8

Ravensburger Waltz looks easy and open actually. I think there will be another partial step sequence because one pattern done under 30 seconds. When I first heard there will be paso doble steps I thought it is very good idea but I only liked Ilinykh/Zhiganshin's paso doble steps because it goes with music really well. Other than than I prefer actual paso doble, at least it ends quickly.

If I were ISU technical committee I would allow only waltz holds (face to face, close) to skate ''partial waltz step sequence''. :evilgrin: They didn't allow hand to hand extended holds this year but who listens them? For example this one from Chock/Bates. Watch 2.39.

http://youtu.be/-2g6IMnLd8o?t=2m39s

 

[LisaM]

Ravensburger Waltz looks easy and open actually.

I guess they'll be really picky on edges and timing though. They'll for sure find something to whine about for each key point.

 

[BlackPack]

They had their share of problems, but they won the Olympic bronze medal and a gold in team.

As for EC2014, they lost to the eventual World Champions. As for EC2013, they lost to B/S, the eventual World bronze medalists (behind D/W and V/M who were in their own class).

In four seasons as seniors, they medalled at three Euros. And as for Sochi, they were not a lock for bronze and had to beat B/S, C/L, P/B and W/P for that ... And in spite of a rocky season they skated as well as they could in the Olympics.

Plenty of skaters have been "expected" winners but don't deliver... Kwan in 2006 Olympics, B&K 2002 Olympics, Chan 2014 Olympics... Even Kim at Worlds after her Olympic win had a terrible Worlds, similar to I/K having a bad 2014 Worlds in spite of solid Sochi performances. Doesn't make them any less notable.

I/K winning the OBM was a huge highlight of their career, along with team event gold. Anyone who says a team who earned an Olympic medal (two, with the team event) is a constant failure is just being a deluded hater.

They had a very good shot at the 2014 Euro and World titles. They really needed to splat in order to lose those titles, which did happen. Otherwise, C&L were not at their level in terms of talent, technical ability, and the actual content of the programs themselves.

OGM in the team event in a home country - the jury is still out there of whether that can be equated with an actual OGM in an individual event.

Despite their problems, they still accomplished a great deal. However, they could have accomplished a lot more and were positioned to do so.

As for the argument that there are plenty of champions who didn't win OGM or World titles - well, most already had a history of winning World titles or medals, and winning OGM was considered a natural progression.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

It's a sorry state of affairs that skaters should be judged not by their achievements but the achievements they failed to win.

Kwan never won the Olympics. Neither did Chan. Or Ito. Or Asada. And those are some of the best skaters ever.

IMO, a bronze at the Olympics is worth more than any Euro or any GP win.

 

[BlackPack]

It's a sorry state of affairs that skaters should be judged not by their achievements but the achievements they failed to win.

Kwan never won the Olympics. Neither did Chan. Or Ito. Or Asada. And those are some of the best skaters ever.

IMO, a bronze at the Olympics is worth more than any Euro or any GP win.

No one ever under-estimated Kwan's or Asada's contribution to the sport because they didn't win OGM. In fact, people IMO have an extra soft spot for them precisely because they never won OGM. They had all the talent in the world to do so but didn't have the right timing or karma.

I would not equate I&K's career with Kwan or Asada who were World Champions many times. They proved themselves many times over many years under many hardships.

I&K only really proved themselves and skated their best in the Sochi Olympics as seniors. All their other competitions were either marred by splats or poorly designed programs.

And if you can't win OGM, a World title is the next best thing which was within I&K's grasp.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Okay, perhaps a better comparison is to Denis Ten.

There are other times I&K have skated their best and simply were outskated or not eataished enough (eg Euros 2013).

Yes they should have won Euros and Worlds last year, but they also were not slated to win bronze in Sochi and I think it's notable that they beat C/L and P/B (yes on home ice but I think they deserved it).

They were always in the realm of being favourites but errors would mar their results. But it's hugely inaccurate to say teir a constant failure. They've won a slew of GP medals including in their first senior season. and in just four seasons they won the OBM. It would be like saying Ten is a constant failure given he's always been off the podium but managed to get it together for a WSM or OBM. And it's rude too because Ten and I/K are excellent skaters in their own rights.

Again, it's absolutely ridiculous to suggest any skater with an Olympic medal is a failure. The fact that they could podium with errors is indicative of them being a strong team. Nikita is more prone to errors, but Elena's made errors too.

Another thing: ice dancing is much harder now so it's not like any of us could do even half of what I/K are capable of.

 

[mnm464]

Again, it's absolutely ridiculous to suggest any skater with an Olympic medal is a failure. The fact that they could podium with errors is indicative of them being a strong team. Nikita is more prone to errors, but Elena's made errors too.

Another thing: ice dancing is much harder now so it's not like any of us could do even half of what I/K are capable of.

I totally agree. The lifts now take so much control, I couldn't even dream of attempting them. They're basically acrobatic feats compared to 06' or before that. Not to mention how difficult twizzles at that speed power, esp. with a new partner. So the criticism is a bit rough.

 

[BlackPack]

Okay, perhaps a better comparison is to Denis Ten.

There are other times I&K have skated their best and simply were outskated or not eataished enough (eg Euros 2013).

Yes they should have won Euros and Worlds last year, but they also were not slated to win bronze in Sochi and I think it's notable that they beat C/L and P/B (yes on home ice but I think they deserved it).

They were always in the realm of being favourites but errors would mar their results. But it's hugely inaccurate to say teir a constant failure. They've won a slew of GP medals including in their first senior season. and in just four seasons they won the OBM. It would be like saying Ten is a constant failure given he's always been off the podium but managed to get it together for a WSM or OBM. And it's rude too because Ten and I/K are excellent skaters in their own rights.

Again, it's absolutely ridiculous to suggest any skater with an Olympic medal is a failure. The fact that they could podium with errors is indicative of them being a strong team. Nikita is more prone to errors, but Elena's made errors too.

Another thing: ice dancing is much harder now so it's not like any of us could do even half of what I/K are capable of.

I never deemed anyone with an Olympic medal to be a failure.

Denis Ten is different. Everyone splats in singles. It's very rare to have both clean SPs and LPs constantly from singles. Often times, even with mistakes, a singles skater can medal because everyone else made mistakes. D10 did win a World Silver medal (he should have won the whole thing IMO and I'm not alone in this opinion) and then an Olympic Bronze. This makes me think that D10 is not only talented but somehow is blessed with the lucky star to rise to the occasion when others fall. This is very rare.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

If you look at the most recent GPF, you'll see that many are prone to fail at key moments. V/M have fallen at the GPF, Coomes/Buckland were essentially a GPF shoein until their final GP. Chock and Bates fell in their SD and many pegged them to win the GPF. It happens to the best teams and we see it more often as teams push themselves to be the next D/W or V/M. Most novice/junior ice dance teams can execute top routines from the 90s (as in the content, not the level of artistry obviously). But I highly doubt Torvill and Dean could execute something like D/W's Scheherazade or V/M's Carmen.

 

[BlackPack]

If you look at the most recent GPF, you'll see that many are prone to fail at key moments. V/M have fallen at the GPF, Coomes/Buckland were essentially a GPF shoein until their final GP. Chock and Bates fell in their SD and many pegged them to win the GPF. It happens to the best teams and we see it more often as teams push themselves to be the next D/W or V/M. Most novice/junior ice dance teams can execute top routines from the 90s (as in the content, not the level of artistry obviously). But I highly doubt Torvill and Dean could execute something like D/W's Scheherazade or V/M's Carmen.

I never said anything about anyone being a failure with an Olympic medal nor did I ever mention that other ice dancers don't falter.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

No, it was more in reference to gmyers and your criticism (which others have too of course) of skaters who "should have won" certain events. Ice is slippery as we say.

 

[BlackPack]

No, it was more in reference to gmyers and your criticism (which others have too of course) of skaters who "should have won" certain events. Ice is slippery as we say.

Of course. But ice is especially slippery with Niki. That's what people have a problem with, not with skaters generally not performing their best at every major event. Just too many incidents with this guy which cost a lot of grief.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Of course. But ice is especially slippery with Niki. That's what people have a problem with, not with skaters generally not performing their best at every major event. Just too many incidents with this guy which cost a lot of grief.

Katsalapov does have more errors than the other guys, but he's still adjusting to a new partner. It's easy to say "oh, well look at Elena's success in one season". People seem to forget that the flair in most ice dance couples comes from the woman, not the man. Nikita's been sloppy but it's not like Vika is as seasoned or as interesting to watch as Elena. And lets not forget I/Z had some sloppiness earlier in the season too so maybe people need to cut S/K some slack (and I say that as somebody who really doesn't like Nikita off the ice).

 

[uhh]

Katsalapov does have more errors than the other guys, but he's still adjusting to a new partner. It's easy to say "oh, well look at Elena's success in one season". People seem to forget that the flair in most ice dance couples comes from the woman, not the man. Nikita's been sloppy but it's not like Vika is as seasoned or as interesting to watch as Elena. And lets not forget I/Z had some sloppiness earlier in the season too so maybe people need to cut S/K some slack (and I say that as somebody who really doesn't like Nikita off the ice).

But it's not like the errors are new for Nikita with Victoria. With I/K, he was the one who messed up at Worlds 2011 (missed the start of the music in the FD and then countless minor errors throughout), missed the man only key points in the SD at Worlds 2013 which left them miles behind going into the FD, where he then messed up the spin, terrible twizzles in both programs at NHK 2013 which meant they missed GPF, messing up the entry to the lift they fell on at Nationals last year, twizzles at Worlds last year and then again dropping a level on the rotational lift because he stopped the rotation too soon in the FD - had they got the level 4 there they would have won the title despite the mess he made of the SD. In contrast I can only think of one major mistake from Elena that cost them a title, in the twizzles at Euros last year (and she never blamed him but pretty much every commentator said she was thrown by him going all over the place on his twizzles next to her). Yes they achieved a lot, and I think people always set their expectations too high considering how young they were when they turned senior, but if Nikita had developed even a tiny bit of consistency or learned not to give up on a program after making a mistake they could have achieved so much more. And then he had the temerity to say he was dumping Elena because she made too many mistakes?

Nathalie Pechalat said when commentating on the GP series about S/K that if you're going to leave your partners and break up successful teams, claiming that you are the better skaters, you have to prove it, and so far he's come nowhere near to doing that & she finished saying maybe it was never the case that S or K were the best part of their old teams. Yes they are a new team, but everything that's come out of their camp from Nikita's comments about errors, Victoria's comments about having no future with Ruslan, Marina's ridiculous PR set very high expectations. They created that standard themselves, and then failed to live up to it, so why should they be cut any slack when no one got them into this mess but themselves?

 

[gmyers]

They had their share of problems, but they won the Olympic bronze medal and a gold in team.

As for EC2014, they lost to the eventual World Champions. As for EC2013, they lost to B/S, the eventual World bronze medalists (behind D/W and V/M who were in their own class).

In four seasons as seniors, they medalled at three Euros. And as for Sochi, they were not a lock for bronze and had to beat B/S, C/L, P/B and W/P for that ... And in spite of a rocky season they skated as well as they could in the Olympics.

Plenty of skaters have been "expected" winners but don't deliver... Kwan in 2006 Olympics, B&K 2002 Olympics, Chan 2014 Olympics... Even Kim at Worlds after her Olympic win had a terrible Worlds, similar to I/K having a bad 2014 Worlds in spite of solid Sochi performances. Doesn't make them any less notable.

I/K winning the OBM was a huge highlight of their career, along with team event gold. Anyone who says a team who earned an Olympic medal (two, with the team event) is a constant failure is just being a deluded hater.

BlackPack says it all!

They had a very good shot at the 2014 Euro and World titles. They really needed to splat in order to lose those titles, which did happen. Otherwise, C&L were not at their level in terms of talent, technical ability, and the actual content of the programs themselves.

OGM in the team event in a home country - the jury is still out there of whether that can be equated with an actual OGM in an individual event.

Despite their problems, they still accomplished a great deal. However, they could have accomplished a lot more and were positioned to do so.

As for the argument that there are plenty of champions who didn't win OGM or World titles - well, most already had a history of winning World titles or medals, and winning OGM was considered a natural progression.

No, it was more in reference to gmyers and your criticism (which others have too of course) of skaters who "should have won" certain events. Ice is slippery as we say.

I don't think anyone imagined them not even medaling at 2013 NHK. Yes they would win Olympic bronze and that's more but teams absolutely need better records to gather momentum to be olympic gold caliber. As gorshkov said an I/k or even b/s with better records should've been able to compete for gold in sochi.

 

[gmyers]

But it's not like the errors are new for Nikita with Victoria. With I/K, he was the one who messed up at Worlds 2011 (missed the start of the music in the FD and then countless minor errors throughout), missed the man only key points in the SD at Worlds 2013 which left them miles behind going into the FD, where he then messed up the spin, terrible twizzles in both programs at NHK 2013 which meant they missed GPF, messing up the entry to the lift they fell on at Nationals last year, twizzles at Worlds last year and then again dropping a level on the rotational lift because he stopped the rotation too soon in the FD - had they got the level 4 there they would have won the title despite the mess he made of the SD. In contrast I can only think of one major mistake from Elena that cost them a title, in the twizzles at Euros last year (and she never blamed him but pretty much every commentator said she was thrown by him going all over the place on his twizzles next to her). Yes they achieved a lot, and I think people always set their expectations too high considering how young they were when they turned senior, but if Nikita had developed even a tiny bit of consistency or learned not to give up on a program after making a mistake they could have achieved so much more. And then he had the temerity to say he was dumping Elena because she made too many mistakes?

Nathalie Pechalat said when commentating on the GP series about S/K that if you're going to leave your partners and break up successful teams, claiming that you are the better skaters, you have to prove it, and so far he's come nowhere near to doing that & she finished saying maybe it was never the case that S or K were the best part of their old teams. Yes they are a new team, but everything that's come out of their camp from Nikita's comments about errors, Victoria's comments about having no future with Ruslan, Marina's ridiculous PR set very high expectations. They created that standard themselves, and then failed to live up to it, so why should they be cut any slack when no one got them into this mess but themselves?

This is all very true and Needs to be said. S/k were not considered any kind of normal new team. They were considered to be automatically better than all russian teams even b/s. now they are 4th in the nationals and even though b/s have not skated once- considered a lesser team than b/s this season! They were supposed to be I/z. So now they lose in tech score to zahorski/Guerrero?!? This is why "future prospects" of s/k is being discussed. People are saying marina is the probkem- sinitsina is the problem- newness is the problem- Nikita is the problem because he's skating too well for sinitsina?!? That's the most shocking! This team has a strong likelihood to fade into oblivion like it has already in Russian nationals and ice dance ranking. I need to just forget it and the basis of this which was why I/k had the problems it did. I/k is over and done now I/z is here to stay.

 

[dorispulaski]

Yes, I think it's probably time to forget it . This thread has pretty much gotten to the repeating itself stage. S&K will or won't have a future. We'll have to wait till after the Universiade to know.

 

[noidont]

It's very interesting how Nikita always thought of Elena as an unworthy partner and was looking for options out even in 2012. I really would like to know why, since Elena is far better a dancer than Sinitsina and I would also say Khoklova. Still the only reason I could think of is that Elena might have dumped him for Morozov in a way that wounded Nikita's feelings, which would justify everything that happens afterwards.

 

[BlackPack]

Elena might have dumped him for Morozov in a way that wounded Nikita's feelings, which would justify everything that happens afterwards.

That would make Niki's reaction understandable. I do think it would be difficult for a young, inexperienced person to deal with unrequited love rationally and behave maturely. However, we only have riddles, gossip, and speculation from the beginning of the demise of I&K until now.