Skaters qualifying for the Final

[antmanb]

Great debate! Each of you has me convinced you're right ... until I read the next rebuttal.

I think I am going to side with Zuranthium because skating is the most individual of sports - you really want to know if this individual is the best in the world, at least at the moment of competition. And the matches are very few in number. So you really need/want him/her to compete against the best... not just those who got a lucky draw. Otherwise, the victory is rather meaningless.

I'm not so sure the victory is meaningless. Is Sasha's one gold at nationals meaningless because Kwan wasn't there?

Is Meissner's world gold meaningless because Arakawa and Slutskaya weren't there?

Should Czisney not have been allowed at the GPF last year because actually Skate America and Skate Canada were flukes and she's never seen that form again?

I think the spirit of the orginal rules is a good one (that the winner of each competition should have final face off in the final) taking the six highest scores (or combination of two scores) would be ok if the scores could be directly compared. I know that this hasn't happened this year but you have to make a rule that can be applied going forwards. What if next year the top 4-8 marks are within 3 points of each other, or the difference between throwing one judges marks out over another? Then how do you "fairly" decide who gets to go?

Ant

 

[antmanb]

Julia is 25, so if she is still "maturing," good for her. Maybe she'll do a Butyrskaya and win the world championship next year at age 26.

I like Z's latest compromise -- let in the top ten in point totals. Julia sneaks in at number 9 (or 10, if we give Emily Hughes a few more points to compensate for bad calls at Cup of China.)

If she's gonna pull a Butyrskaya then she's got another 4 years to go!!

I like the idea of the top ten go to the GPF.

How about doing an SP and cutting four out on that basis and the top 6 proceed to the LP?

Ant

 

[gio]

Julia Sebestyen deserves to be in the Final!!! Was she lucky? YES! But she isn't the first skater that was lucky in a competition. It always happened and it will always happen.
Go Julia!! You are in the GP Final! Just don't listen to the ones that bash you! They're just envious!

 

[michaela77]

To me, any system is "fair" as long as the rules are clear-cut and apply to every skater equally. I would almost say that this is the definition of fair.

That is why (to respond to Joe's lament above) it would not have been "fair" to have one set of rules about Olympic eligibility that apply just to Mao Asada, and a different set of rules that apply to everyone else. Change the rules by all means if you want to, but apply them equally to everyone.

The reason that I lean more toward the present system of seeding the GP finals, rather than putting more emphasis on individual point totals, is not because of concerns about "fairness." Either system is fair in the sense mentioned above, and under either (or any) system there will always be a lot of wuzrobbin' when the final selection comes down.

Instead, what I am most interested in is making the Grand prix series exciting and interesting to the fans. The goal of the GP final is not (IMHO) to gather together all the best skaters in the world and see who's the best -- we already have that. Its the World Championship. What do we need the Grand Prix for?

But the idea of a 6 event tournament that can stand on it's own, where each event is a big deal all by itself, where the skaters go after big money prizes as well as bragging rights (Miki beat both Kimmie and Mao at Skate America -- I don't think she's moaning about how strong the competition was), then a final skate-off that brings together, for the most part, the winners of the individual heats -- I think that's pretty cool.

This post by Mathman is the most intelligent response in this entire thread. I have to agree wholeheartedly that rules are rules and that there is no point in having a "grand prix" if the winner is determined simply by ranking the highest total scores from all the Cups.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I think Rules are Rules and should be obeyed by all participants.

However, it would not take much for me to think Rules need improvements.

Joe

 

[Mathman]

Bottom line, I think year's Grand Prix series was the most exciting ever. I look forward to some sort of surprise in the finals.

This year we had everything. We had two knock-down, drag-out heavyweight slugfests, with Ando winning at Skate America over Meissner, Asada and Meier and Kim whupping up on Ando, Meissner and Rochette in Paris.

This left Ando and Kim in the driver's seat, with Meissner, Asada, Meier and Rochette on the bubble.

Then came the last two events, with four places in the final still in the balance. At Cup of Russia, Meier's siutation was clear -- win with a big score and she's in, second place, she's out. She delivered!

Sebestyen had leaped into contention with a surprise first at Cup of China, as Emily Hughes fell off the pace. But now she had to make the podium or her effort was wasted. She got second!!

Now it comes down to the last game of the season (as all good pennant races do). For Mighty Mao, rocked back on her heels by the tag-team of Ando and Meissner in the first game of the season, now it's do or die. Nothing less than total victory will mean a thing. Sure, she has a great short program, but can she deliver in the clutch?

She shoots!! She scores!!!

On the the finals!

(And that's just the ladies!)

 

[emma]

Bottom line, I think year's Grand Prix series was the most exciting ever. I look forward to some sort of surprise in the finals.

This year we had everything. We had two knock-down, drag-out heavyweight slugfests, with Ando winning at Skate America over Meissner, Asada and Meier and Kim whupping up on Ando, Meissner and Rochette in Paris.

This left Ando and Kim in the driver's seat, with Meissner, Asada, Meier and Rochette on the bubble.

Then came the last two events, with four places in the final still in the balance. At Cup of Russia, Meier's siutation was clear -- win with a big score and she's in, second place, she's out. She delivered!

Sebestyen had leaped into contention with a surprise first at Cup of China, as Emily Hughes fell off the pace. But now she had to make the podium or her effort was wasted. She got second!!

Now it comes down to the last game of the season (as all good pennant races do). For Mighty Mao, rocked back on her heels by the tag-team of Ando and Meissner in the first game of the season, now it's do or die. Nothing less than total victory will mean a thing. Sure, she has a great short program, but can she deliver in the clutch?

She shoots!! She scores!!!

On the the finals!

(And that's just the ladies!)

Awesome post! I couldn't agree more about this season, btw. AND you should do pbp commentating!

I can't wait for the finals!

 

[emma]

Oh sorry one more thing to add --- Based on this year, I think we fans can imagine really exciting seasons to come -- heated/tense/unexpected outcomes in the Fall with the GP series, and then another set of skaters (well larger set) and different battles and outcomes at Worlds - I'm loving it (and totally not couting Kimmie out of the latter at all).

 

[Zuranthium]

Coudl it also be that you natioanlistic biases are also colouring your opinions a little here?

Ant

Umm, no? I don't even like the current top U.S. female skaters very much.

This post by Mathman is the most intelligent response in this entire thread. I have to agree wholeheartedly that rules are rules and that there is no point in having a "grand prix" if the winner is determined simply by ranking the highest total scores from all the Cups.

Nobody is arguing for that???? The Grand Prix final stands on it's own and the best person there wins. What we are arguing for is that the best people should be at the final, not some of the best and then a couple who got there because of extreme luck.

~Z

 

[enlight78]

I like the idea of the top ten go to the GPF.

How about doing an SP and cutting four out on that basis and the top 6 proceed to the LP?

Ant

That would be wicked, putting so much pressure on the short program. I really like that idea. I wonder will it encourage amazing short programs or result in total melt downs.Especially since endurance won't be an issue.

 

[JOHIO2]

Oh boy! Another argument on cop totals vs competition placements! Would you believe that that argument has reared it's head now at the juvenile and intermediate levels? I heard the same arguments at U S Jr. Nationals last week. This was the first competition for these skaters under cop and of course there were grumblings.

There were qualifying rounds and the skaters who "qualified" to move on was based on placement in their round's competition and not on cop total scores. As you'd expect, there were a handful of skaters who received higher scores than skaters who advanced. Probably pissed off parents more than the kids but i did hear grumblings about every discipline's results because people compared the total points of competitors. And were disgruntled because their skater had a higher score than someone who moved on in the competition (because of the rule that so many from each qualifying round moved on.).

So....how would these people resolve this? No good answers but one dad agreed with me that the result (kid w/ higher cop total not advancing) was due to "the luck of the draw." Kid's score would have put him in if he'd been lucky enough to draw another qr. (mom still didn't agree, but what could she do? Maybe next year.....)

 

[Fernan]

Maybe if we're going to use total score, then let the skaters do as many GP's as they'd like. Or, perhaps, by having every GP judged by the same judging panel. That way, at least the scores would probably be around the same range...

 

[SeaniBu]

Or, perhaps, by having every GP judged by the same judging panel. That way, at least the scores would probably be around the same range...

:agree: Great idea, but then they would need to get payed . I think it would be a much more "fair" score in that case.

 

[Kwanford Wife]

Nothing wrong with loathing except the loathee just might win the Worlds. It happens. Since La Kwan is out of the running, it is easy for me to sit back and let the good times roll without worrying anymore. Kurt and Michelle are gone but they will always be the best for me.

I now like to watch the various pre-Worlds competitions and decide who I think should make the podium. In all modesty, I take pride in getting 2 out of 3 correct. As for the gold, I really think the one who was best that night deserves it regardless of nationality, or whether I loathe the skater (some I do). There usually is one in each discipline that I think should win but it doesn't happen all the time. How many posters hate the idea of Lambiel winning another championship, yet he just might. Posters have thought that before.

It seems to me that the powers that be in Dance are ganging up on Delob and Schern as they did on Denk and Stav in previous years. Any one who could win gold has to go! Room for gold has been made for Domina and Shabalan for this year's Worlds. Just my politcal mind.

I digressed. Whoa.

Joe

Sooo funny!!!! Thanks Joe, you always help me work it all out... I just need to get to a place where I'm sitting back & enjoying the season, instead of being so bored by everyone... and then coming on-line to whine about it...

Anywho... I still don't understand the placement of the French team in dance... their free dance is so cool, interesting & different... (plus, I had a dress & boots like hers in my young & sexy days... ) why is that? does anyone know? If B&A are being marked low for a boring, overdone, non-modern dance - then why are the French even lower for taking a risk, having an original program & the best costumes in the entire history of ice dance?? Its very confusing...

 

[Spun Silver]

Anywho... I still don't understand the placement of the French team in dance... their free dance is so cool, interesting & different... (plus, I had a dress & boots like hers in my young & sexy days... ) why is that? does anyone know? If B&A are being marked low for a boring, overdone, non-modern dance - then why are the French even lower for taking a risk, having an original program & the best costumes in the entire history of ice dance?? Its very confusing...

I share your confusion. I loved them!!!!!

 

[SeaniBu]

Anywho... I still don't understand the placement of the French team in dance... their free dance is so cool, interesting & different... (plus, I had a dress & boots like hers in my young & sexy days... ) why is that? does anyone know? If B&A are being marked low for a boring, overdone, non-modern dance - then why are the French even lower for taking a risk, having an original program & the best costumes in the entire history of ice dance?? Its very confusing...

Second that, and the apparel too. I feel sorry for her in that "back breaking rotational lift" of theirs though, looks very uncomfortable to say the least.

 

[dizzydi7]

I agree this will be an exciting Grand Prix Final for the ladies. I think anyone can win. Instead of complaining about who didn't make the final, we should enjoy the skating of those who made it. It should be a great show and hopefully a close competition.

For those who are fretting about Kimmie not making the final, look at the positive side.....this gives Kimmie even more time to polish her programs and make her an even bigger threat for Nationals and Worlds. Kimmie is a good competitor and I believe this experience will build a fire and determination in her to win the other competitions this season.

Dizzy

 

[Kwanford Wife]

I agree this will be an exciting Grand Prix Final for the ladies. I think anyone can win. Instead of complaining about who didn't make the final, we should enjoy the skating of those who made it. It should be a great show and hopefully a close competition.

For those who are fretting about Kimmie not making the final, look at the positive side.....this gives Kimmie even more time to polish her programs and make her an even bigger threat for Nationals and Worlds. Kimmie is a good competitor and I believe this experience will build a fire and determination in her to win the other competitions this season.

Dizzy

Dizzy,

I love your positive attitude! I shall adopt it for the rest of the day... (or at least until I get to the mall...)

 

[enlight78]

How many points from the GPF does a skater get for world ranking?

 

[Mathman]

600 for first, then it goes down in increments of 50.

So, for instance, if you finish 6th (last) in the Grand Prix Final, you get 550 points (campared to 400 for first place in an individual GP event.)

You get 840 for first place at Eoros or Four Continents. I bet a lot of good skaters will choose to go to Four Continents this year, trying to get in on the bonus money.

Here are the rules about the points, etc.

http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-179916-197134-115236-0-file,00.pdf