Skaters who competed under the wrong scoring system

Skatesocs

Final Flight
Joined
May 16, 2020
If she had been competing in the IJS system someone else would have had to do that though-- it's like the idea that you're standing on the shoulder of giants.
Very interesting point. Looking at that bit of history, I think it's correct to say that Yamaguchi attempted a 3A in practice and 3Lz+3T really only because of Ito, but I'm not so sure about Harding. Would Harding had landed the first ever 3A then, along with the other accomplishments with the number of triples in a single program?

And then we mostly had an "artistic" revolution in skating, with some landing difficult +3Lo combos, and some others trying +3T combos. If Harding still goes for her content, then I think this technical development still happens. If we think Ito would have started competing as a senior in 2004-05, she'd still have the opportunity to establish herself with a quad in seniors, and even get a rotated quad in juniors before Ando - and that's assuming someone like Ando would even be skating if Ito hadn't happened to be a world champion.
 
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Skatesocs

Final Flight
Joined
May 16, 2020
I'm curious about a Midori vs Yuna.
Currently, I feel it'd be close. Yuna had amazing toe jumps, but Midori had amazing all around jumps, and a 3A to boot. It'd come down to how each would develop their PCS while competing against each other.

With an edge to Midori on TES of course. I just mean, it's possible that Yuna would have paid more attention to the rest of her qualities when her GOE gap was reduced to negligible. Or Midori would have gone for a 100% complete package to leave no stone unturned.
 

yume

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 11, 2016
R
Currently, I feel it'd be close. Yuna had amazing toe jumps, but Midori had amazing all around jumps, and a 3A to boot. It'd come down to how each would develop their PCS while competing against each other.

With an edge to Midori on TES of course. I just mean, it's possible that Yuna would have paid more attention to the rest of her qualities when her GOE gap was reduced to negligible. Or Midori would have gone for a 100% complete package to leave no stone unturned.
Midori's others skills were Ok. She wasn't only strong in jumps and weak in other areas. So i think she would have gone for complete package. But i think Kim would have had a lead on PCS because of her performance skills.
 

Skatesocs

Final Flight
Joined
May 16, 2020
Midori's others skills were Ok. She wasn't only strong in jumps and weak in other areas. So i think she would have gone for complete package. But i think Kim would have had a lead on PCS because of her performance skills.
I agree that Midori was an overall good skater! She skated with joy and was a strong spinner. By 100% overall package I just meant she could have gone even further to get a complete, refined choreography and worked to deliver it at its best potential.

Probably agree Yuna would have scored more PCS.
 

yume

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 11, 2016
I think the 2015-2018 generation of Japanese ladies would have done better against the Russian generation under 6.0 + compulsory figures (Satoko, Mai, Wakaba, Kaori VS Medvedeva, Zagitova, Radionova, Pogorilaya, Sotskova). Huge lead after compulsory figures.
 

lesnar001

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 19, 2005
Unfortunately i think Surya would have gotten the same results or worse. Judges would have given her low GOEs for her landings. I don't even want to think about her pcs. Probably low 7s at best. Quantity/complexity played in her favor under 6.0. Under CoP, the gap with skaters seen as more artistic would have been bigger and those skaters could have competed with her in TES thanks to GOE. Even if she had landed the quad.


1.Yuna 2.Mao 3.Michelle.
Kostner already had won against Michelle in 2005 thanks to qualifying round in which she got big TES. Michelle beat her in both SP and FS but it wasnt enough. Especially because Kostner's pcs were awfully close to Michelle's pcs.
So i think that Yuna and Mao would have been very close in pcs and would have won on TES.

I'm curious about a Midori vs Yuna.
I think we need to consider too how Michelle in her prime would have done against Mao and Yuna.

I remember that Surya Bonaly, for all her jumping prowess, sometimes had really awkard landings, etc...

I wonder how the judges would have scored Midori Ito's jumps that had the "leg wrap".
 

lesnar001

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 19, 2005
I think the 2015-2018 generation of Japanese ladies would have done better against the Russian generation under 6.0 + compulsory figures (Satoko, Mai, Wakaba, Kaori VS Medvedeva, Zagitova, Radionova, Pogorilaya, Sotskova). Huge lead after compulsory figures.
I agree if we compare how they skate now.
But I think the Russians would probably be training basic skating skills much more if compulsory figures counted for a large part of the score the way they used to.
So in some ways, it is difficult to compare, because they are training differently.

I think it is easier to look at a trait that probably would not change no matter what the focus was on.
So in that regard, for example, I think Satoko would do much better under 6.0 (even after the figures era) because under IJS, the size of her jumps and the tendency to UR has hindered her scores greatly.
 

Ballade88

On the Ice
Joined
Apr 19, 2017
I actually think Surya competed in the right system. Her biggest weakness was her skating skills or lack of imo. She would have been buried under figures or COP and her jumps would not get high GOEs. Surya's charisma and 6.0's tendency to evaluate holistically rather than by parts allowed her to be successful.

Satoko would definitely be more successful. She's like Sasha Cohen with consistency! I am also wondering how Marin Honda's career might have turned out. She probably would have won junior worlds over Alina.
Patrick Chan and Kostner might have been more penalized under 6.0 which was much harsher on programs with falls and step-outs. Patrick might have dominated the field a la Schuba if he competed under figures system.
I still believe no matter the system, Michelle at her peak should be getting the highest PCS over everyone.
I do wonder how Mao's programs would have looked if she was allowed to do her elements without COP restrictions and not having to fret over the tech panel all the time. Based on some of her gala programs and novice performances, it probably would have been amazing.
 

yume

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 11, 2016
I do wonder how Mao's programs would have looked if she was allowed to do her elements without COP restrictions and not having to fret over the tech panel all the time. Based on some of her gala programs and novice performances, it probably would have been amazing.
Ballade and Jupiter would have been competitive programs.
I actually think Surya competed in the right system. Her biggest weakness was her skating skills or lack of imo. She would have been buried under figures or COP and her jumps would not get high GOEs. Surya's charisma and 6.0's tendency to evaluate holistically rather than by parts allowed her to be successful.
I agree.
Patrick Chan and Kostner might have been more penalized under 6.0 which was much harsher on programs with falls and step-outs. Patrick might have dominated the field a la Schuba if he competed under figures system.
Definitely.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Timothy Goebel would have done far better under the IJS. At the 2002 Olympics, if it were under IJS, he would have deserved to beat Plushenko and arguably edged out Yagudin for the Olympic gold, given the BV and quality of execution of his quads (and the fact that Plushenko and Yagudin did things here and there that would have left points on the table). The judges might have propped the Russians on PCS, but I still think with fair judging of GOE, Goebel could have won. Under 6.0 though, it made sense why Yagudin and Plushenko beat him - he could have done 7 quads and the judges wouldn't have given it to him.
 

Arbitrary

Medalist
Joined
Sep 5, 2018
Yagudin vs Plushenko. When Plushenko crashed in SP he was placed 4th. The 6.0 score system required him not only win FP, what he did, but also someone else to take the 2nd place. No matter the overall score of perfection. Total idiocracy.
So Yagudin benefited from 6.0 and Plushenko would prefer CoP.
Same happened few days ago between Valieva and Trusova. CoP helped Sasha...
 

4everchan

Observer
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 7, 2015
I feel like he'd struggle after 1984, when you needed a reliable 3A to get to the top of the sport. Of course, not training quads would probably have allowed him to spend more time working on his problem jump.
Patrick's 3a was fine until he focused on the quad toe... so i am not worried about that... funny enough though, seeing his name here in this thread when people mentioned so much. at the beginning of his career that COP had pretty much been custom made for him :) IMHO Patrick's skating skills are just so much above others that he would have done well in any system.... especially when considering that his technique on jumps is textbook...having followed him closely, i wouldn't say his 3a wasn't good or reliable, but that he developed a lack of confidence in the jump... and started rushing it instead of trusting his training... it's too bad but the guy still managed a more than decent career :)
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
The caveat with saying "under IJS" is that at times the rule changes have been significant enough that rules that favor certain skaters in 2010 might not have the same effect in 2020 or vice versa.

As always, as mentioned above, we have to assume that ambitious, capable skaters would focus their training to maximize success under whatever system they were training under. And so would their rivals. So it's hard to know who would have ended up on top under different rules.

And skaters who had long careers often had ups and downs in the system(s) they did skate under, so no doubt the same would be true in a different system.

It's also hard to give hypothetical IJS scores for programs skated under different rules -- including for 2010 programs skated under 2020 rules or vice versa.

It would be easier to imagine how judges might compare skaters from different eras with the more holistic 6.0 approach. How might programs from today or from 10-15 years ago have looked to 1990s eyes?

We could also develop our own individual opinions about how we personally would score specific programs from different eras against each other in a 6.0-style system, but knowing what we know now. Or how we would score past and present/recent programs against each other on PCS and maybe GOEs, regardless of what a tech panel would give credit for or not in a specific year's IJS rules.
 

el henry

Fangirl of men’s spirals and split jumps
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 3, 2014
Or Toller and Janet Lynn without school figures ;)

I guess they will need to be content that the scoring because of them, but not in time to reward them. :)
 

Ballade88

On the Ice
Joined
Apr 19, 2017
Ballade and Jupiter would have been competitive programs.

I agree.

Definitely.
Jupiter could have been a competitive program in either system. In fact, I remember Mao wanting a short program to sad music as a tribute to her mother in 2012, but Lori thought an upbeat number was better so we got "I Got Rhythm". It's very likely that she was thinking of using Jupiter as a competitive program or something similar to it. I got to say Mao had the better idea in this case. I agree with you that her Ballade could have worked as a competitive program given the greater freedom skaters had in the long programs under 6.0. I am just so glad that the program exists no matter the form. It is the definitive interpretation of the piece in my opinion (sorry Hanyu fans).


I always got the impression that artistry was evaluated much more highly back in the 90s and perhaps slightly more than the technical in the ladies discipline. Of course there was bias, as always, in what was considered artistic. Judges back then seem to greatly prefer the classical, feminine style. It was the reason why Midori and Tonya struggled to earn those second marks. Why the charismatic Baiul won over Kerrigan in 1994. Why Lu Chen medaled in 1998 despite not having the technical difficulty as those who finished below her. But I think the trend was already changing by the late 90s and early 2000s with Tara and then the rise of Slutskaya with their difficult 3-3 combos.
 
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yume

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 11, 2016
It would be easier to imagine how judges might compare skaters from different eras with the more holistic 6.0 approach. How might programs from today or from 10-15 years ago have looked to 1990s eyes?
6.0 with figures or without figures? Even 6.0 without figures was different from early 90s to early 2000s.
 
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