Sonia Bianchetti's suggested changes

[umeko_yur1tasukee]

Skaters have always tried to and many succeed at beauty at higher and higher technical levels. History will continue on the same path because no athletes want to go back to a lower level in the past. The issue is not to limit the technical advancements but to equalize the importance of the artistic aspects and have holistic valuation of figure skating.

:yes:

 

[TheGrandSophy]

The way spins are valued does need to be changed. It's too easy to predict what is going to happen in a spin now and the movements are too set-in-stone for points, not done in accordance with the music.

Spins used to be like a dream. You wouldn't know what would happen in them, they would just happen and they would reflect the skater's own personality and the program. Usually people would do one kind of special thing in the spin to make to different. Sometimes really good spinners would give us more. Spins were undervalued in the sport for a long time but now that they are mostly just mechanical. Everyone can put a bunch of different positions into spins, it's not special. They should be scored more on the speed, fluidity, line, effortlessness, and creativity.

You need to watch the latest TSL interview with Stephane Lambiel, if you haven't done so already. He makes similar points and it is a very interesting interview about his career too.

 

[FlattFan]

To make things more balance, you can do this

for 8 jumping passes, only 4 will have 10% bonus in the second half, you can backload all 8, but only 4 will get bonus.

To discourage jumping with a fall, keep everything as is, but final tally will have
-1 for the first fall
-3 for the second fall
-7 for the third fall
-10 for the fourth fall
call a doctor for the 5th fall, you need to stop and get off the ice.

So anyone with 4 falls will have a -21 at the end, guarantee they won't medal.

We need ugly spins deduction, and that should come from GOE. level 4 but with -3 GOE.

 

[yellowricenoodle]

To make things more balance, you can do this

for 8 jumping passes, only 4 will have 10% bonus in the second half, you can backload all 8, but only 4 will get bonus.

To discourage jumping with a fall, keep everything as is, but final tally will have
-1 for the first fall
-3 for the second fall
-7 for the third fall
-10 for the fourth fall
call a doctor for the 5th fall, you need to stop and get off the ice.

So anyone with 4 falls will have a -21 at the end, guarantee they won't medal.

We need ugly spins deduction, and that should come from GOE. level 4 but with -3 GOE.

I like this. For SP, only a maximum of 2 will get the 10% bonus in the 2nd half. I don't want more skaters to stack all the jumps either at the front to reduce risk of falling or at the back just because they want the additional 10%. The only exception is when it fits the music nicely. Takahashi's hip hop swan lake SP :agree:

 

[gkelly]

My understanding of the original reasoning for the second half bonus in the freeskate was that it is athletically more difficult to perform difficult jumps successfully after skating for 2+ minutes without stop, so the bonus was to reward that athletic difficult.

I do think the short program bonus was more about distributing the jumps throughout the program for aesthetic reasons. But the reason everyone was frontloading the short program jumps was to give themselves better chances of landing them successfully on fresh legs.

To discourage jumping with a fall, keep everything as is, but final tally will have
-1 for the first fall
-3 for the second fall
-7 for the third fall
-10 for the fourth fall
call a doctor for the 5th fall, you need to stop and get off the ice.

I think increasing the penalty for subsequent falls has merit, but those numbers are much too high for anyone but senior men doing triple axels and quads. Other disciplines, lower levels, even the lower-ranked senior men could lose the majority of their TES with those kinds of penalties.

That's why I'd rather see the deductions as a percentage of total score rather than a flat number that's the same for a skater whose hardest jump is quad lutz, triple lutz, or double lutz.

Also, I wouldn't call the doctor and disqualify the skater based purely on number of falls, but rather if the skater seems to be in physical distress.

I once saw a senior lady fall 7 times in a freeskate -- on 6 triples and a double axel -- at a summer competition. She finished last in that event IIRC, behind skaters who were not attempting multiple triples. But by later in the season she was landing most of her jumps and she did qualify for nationals that year. She wasn't injured as far as I could tell; she was just getting used to the challenge of attempting so many difficult jumps in one 4-minute span.

So attempting an ambitious program unsuccessfully early in the season ended up being a good strategy for her developing the ability to succeed with an ambitious program later in the season.

 

[David21]

Hmmmmm I disagree... It is quite balanced for men right now. As for ladies, I'm sure once more of them start trying harder jumps, it will balance out again:

Men at GPF:

3 1
3 1
3 1
1 3
2 2
2 2

14 first half x 10 second half
There is no excessive backloading, its just balanced. If anything, more jumps could be placed at second half.

Women at GPF:

0 4
1 3
3 1
2 2
2 2
1 3

9 first half x 15 second half

Taking out Evgenia, it is pretty balanced too.

So basically, here we have 12 skaters. They are among best of athletes currently skating. Adding it up, we have 23 jumps at first half and 25 jumps second half.
No backloading on average, the jumps are distributed quite evenly.

I guess you are talking about the short program? I think the poster you quoted was talking about the free program...

Personally, I would abolish the 10% rule for jumps in the 2nd half of the program completely because it simply doesn't work. The ISU has already done that for the Pairs Free Skate which is good.

 

[Sophie-Anna]

I don't agree with reducing the number of jumps and also I don't agree with 0 points for two footed-landing. Two-footed landing doesn't look so bad, like I know it's a mistake but not so bad as a fall.
I pretty much agree with everything other. 0 points for fall is a good idea actually. In some cases falls totally ruin the program and I don't like it when someone skates clean with let's say one quad and other triples, and someone elses has 3 triples falls on all of them and is still better. And I definitely agree with spins. When someone can do some difficult spin and when it looks good why not? But doing bielmann spin is worthless when a skater can't do it properly. For example Serafima Sakhanovich has a very nice quick layback and I hated it when last year they put bielmann in all of her programs. Or some positions in a sit spin are awful. And I also don't like when a skater does a spin and at the end is literally just standing but almost not spinning just because he/she needs to get levels for revolutions. Yes, it's nice when someone can do a beautiful layback level four spin which ends with fast 8 revolutions in the Bielmann position. But not everybody can do that and then it looks ugly.

 

[moriel]

I guess you are talking about the short program? I think the poster you quoted was talking about the free program...

Personally, I would abolish the 10% rule for jumps in the 2nd half of the program completely because it simply doesn't work. The ISU has already done that for the Pairs Free Skate which is good.

Ofc the short. The second half bonust for FS has another explanation, which is not balancing out the program, but rewarding the difficulty. Also, FS is even less backloaded than SP.

Why it doesnt work? It seems to work perfectly for me - more balanced programs instead of jumpjumpjump then all skating. It rewars the difficulty, as its harder to jump when you are tired.

 

[David21]

Ofc the short. The second half bonust for FS has another explanation, which is not balancing out the program, but rewarding the difficulty. Also, FS is even less backloaded than SP.

The FS is backloaded in the sense that most skaters put more jumps after the 2nd half of the prorgam than put into the program before it. The reason why the SP is not as fronloaded as the FS yet is because the rule for the SP is newer.

Why it doesnt work? It seems to work perfectly for me - more balanced programs instead of jumpjumpjump then all skating. It rewars the difficulty, as its harder to jump when you are tired.

It doesn't work because skaters are taking a rest after their first 2-3 jumps in the FS, they then rest by doing their choreo sequence and spins, and then do their jumps directly after the 2-minute mark. Some skaters do 5 jumps in a row directly after that mark. That completely destroys the purpose of that rule (rewarding difficult jumps late in the program when you tired). That "tactic" by skaters also results in ugly programs with poor choreo (too many jumps in a row) that doesn't fit to the music and which are unbalanced in their structure.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

The FS is backloaded in the sense that most skaters put more jumps after the 2nd half of the prorgam than put into the program before it. The reason why the SP is not as fronloaded as the FS yet is because the rule for the SP is newer.




It doesn't work because skaters are taking a rest after their first 2-3 jumps in the FS, they then rest by doing their choreo sequence and spins, and then do their jumps directly after the 2-minute mark. Some skaters do 5 jumps in a row directly after that mark. That completely destroys the purpose of that rule (rewarding difficult jumps late in the program when you tired). That "tactic" by skaters also results in ugly programs with poor choreo (too many jumps in a row) that doesn't fit to the music and which are unbalanced in their structure.

Why do you get to decide for everyone how the sport should be skated? I also think you're just using blanket statements. Why don't you provide examples of a couple programs with too many jumps in a row that the music and structure are unbalanced.

Surely you realize that others may have a different mindset on the matter. A creative sport like figure skating shouldn't cater to any one viewpoint.

Some skaters do 5 jumps in a row directly after that mark.

Who are these skaters doing five jumps in a row. I kinda want to see it :yes:

 

[rain]

However, I have to disagree with you on giving credits to Chan for pushing the sports on the technical sides. You have been in the forum for 12 years longer than me (WOW!!) and I am sure you have more experience in this sports than I do. Correct me if I'm wrong, but a quick research on the history of quad in figure skating dawned upon me that the ones who really pushed the sports to include Quads were people like Plushenko, Brian Joubert, Yagudin, etc.. It all began from Kurt Browning who landed it back in 1988. Yagudin landed two quads in 2002 Olympics, a quad-triple-double, and a solo Quad. Plushenko also included two. Quads have already been there since those times. It slowly became something so essential in the sport that in 2008 when Jeffrey won the World Championship without a quad, it sparked some interesting debate. Similarly in 2010 when Evan won the Olympics without a quad, the controversy had so much impact in the sports that it lead to the increase in Quad's BV. There are many other skaters who have already been attempting Quads in their programs (another good example is Takahashi), all had happened before Chan even started including Quad in his program. In addition, I think I have read articles where Patrick made his opinion clear that he sided with Jeffrey and Evan and he thought both of them deserved their medals because of their overall quality of the program even though they are a little behind technical wise. It seems like you have been following his career closely for quite sometime and you watch his interviews too, I'm pretty sure you are aware of this. =)

Although I agree that his performance is second to none during his era, but I also can't allow you to misrepresent Chan's effect on the field here.

He definitely pushed the sport forward, but only with his skating skills, and not technical wise.

Again, I don't think you represent the history of the men's field properly. Was the quad around before Chan? Absolutely. The first man who was actually consistent with it in competition and used it on a consistent basis was actually Elvis Stojko, before Yagudin and Plushenko dominated the field. But after that, there was undoubtedly a quad lull. As you point out, a number of men, notably Buttle and Lysachek won major events without it. There was some controversy about it, but the fact of the matter was that quads were far fewer and further between in the years after Plushenko retired, and successful quads even rarer than that. Skaters like Takahashi and Lambiel could, on occasion, land them (though Lambiel's was more consistent than his triple axel, which was his real problem jump), but they frequently did not. It took Chan to really launch the new quad era that we're seeing now. Chan's excellence in skating skills combined (this is the important distinction) with his quads have really pushed the sport to where it is now. Whether he can keep up now is still an open question.

 

[David21]

Why do you get to decide for everyone how the sport should be skated? I also think you're just using blanket statements. Why don't you provide examples of a couple programs with too many jumps in a row that the music and structure are unbalanced.

Surely you realize that others may have a different mindset on the matter. A creative sport like figure skating shouldn't cater to any one viewpoint.

I'm not deciding for everyone how sport should be skated but if you seriously think that doing 5 jumps in row constitutes a well-balanced and well-structured Free Skate then I really cannot help you

Who are these skaters doing five jumps in a row. I kinda want to see it :yes:

Since I'm nice, I've checked the protocols from Worlds Mens LP last year for you. There you can that see that 4 of the Top 10 did 5 jumps in a row directly after the 2 minute mark, 4 more other skaters did 4 jumps in a row in the 2nd half of the program. If those numbers are not enough for you

 

[David21]

Again, I don't think you represent the history of the men's field properly. Was the quad around before Chan? Absolutely. The first man who was actually consistent with it in competition and used it on a consistent basis was actually Elvis Stojko, before Yagudin and Plushenko dominated the field. But after that, there was undoubtedly a quad lull. As you point out, a number of men, notably Buttle and Lysachek won major events without it. There was some controversy about it, but the fact of the matter was that quads were far fewer and further between in the years after Plushenko retired, and successful quads even rarer than that. Skaters like Takahashi and Lambiel could, on occasion, land them (though Lambiel's was more consistent than his triple axel, which was his real problem jump), but they frequently did not. It took Chan to really launch the new quad era that we're seeing now. Chan's excellence in skating skills combined (this is the important distinction) with his quads have really pushed the sport to where it is now. Whether he can keep up now is still an open question.

That Chan took the Men's Skating into a new Quad era is really news to me, no offense. It was him who for years only did a 3-3 and a triple axel in the SP without any quad. It took him also several years to include a quad into his FS. Since he has the quad, combined with the sky high PCS (deserved or not, that's a different topic) he gets from the judges it what made him so hard to beat in some years even though he often made blatant mistakes.

 

[gkelly]

I'm not deciding for everyone how sport should be skated but if you seriously think that doing 5 jumps in row constitutes a well-balanced and well-structured Free Skate then I really cannot help you

It really depends on the choreography. Any layout can be well balanced and well structured if done with intention.

For example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwFNlv_nNp0

If you think there are "right" and "wrong" layouts by definition, I guess I can't help you

 

[David21]

It really depends on the choreography. Any layout can be well balanced and well structured if done with intention.

For example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwFNlv_nNp0

If you think there are "right" and "wrong" layouts by definition, I guess I can't help you

5 jumps in a row can be well balanced but it is the exception from the rule

 

[gkelly]

Back in 6.0 days I liked to make up fictional programs in my mind, and one thing I liked doing was playing around with expected program structures. Examples that come to mind:

A playful jazzy ladies' short program in which she started with her big jumps (3F+3T and back spiral into 3Lz), did her spins and spiral sequence and step sequence, ending with big combination spin . . . and then threw in the double axel on the last beat of music with a "gotcha" gesture to the judges.

A men's short program by a skater who didn't have the harder jumps, starting with a back-to-front combination spin (rare before IJS) and ending with a 3Lz+3T< combination, i.e., basically structuring the program backward from what would be expected. IIRC the music was Bolero and, aside from the backward structure, the theme of the program was linking every element seamlessly to the next one with no stops and the minimum possible crossovers.

A Hamlet freeskate by an elite man, starting with 4T+3T, 4S, flying camel, 3Lz+3Lo, then a contemplative section "spirals, spins, steps . . . working out the plot, interrogating the queen, finding guilt . . . deciding what to do about it . . ." then taking action with a sequence of 3A, 3F, 3Lo, 3S, 3T with only a couple of steps and hops between each of them.

 

[Shayuki]

Regarding Tano, the single arm tano is generally ugly... at least I haven't seen anyone do it beautifully yet. However, I really love 2 arm tano, I think that it's actually significantly more beautiful than just normal jumps. I really would enjoy it if single hand tano didn't give any bonus points, and only double arm tano did instead. And hey, it also is more difficult.

 

[gkelly]

Regarding Tano, the single arm tano is generally ugly... at least I haven't seen anyone do it beautifully yet.

Not even Mr. Boitano himself?

 

[Shayuki]

Not even Mr. Boitano himself?

Well that one's pretty good. Perhaps it works better with male skaters.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Regarding Tano, the single arm tano is generally ugly... at least I haven't seen anyone do it beautifully yet. However, I really love 2 arm tano, I think that it's actually significantly more beautiful than just normal jumps. I really would enjoy it if single hand tano didn't give any bonus points, and only double arm tano did instead. And hey, it also is more difficult.

I really think the root of and the only problem that exists regarding tanos is the idea that any of them need required GOE. I'm sorry but isn't it much more reasonable to let the judges decide right then and there if a jump earns the GOE. That way if it becomes excessive in a judges mind they can have the freedom to say enough of that tano busines and award it as they see fit. I simply mean let the judge determine if it actually is helping to make the jump look better. In fact.....I don't even mind if a judge were to exercise such freedom to not award a single GOE point for the best tano ever and instead decided to award it in PCS. I could see how tanos could help or even hurt a program's overall feel. Wouldn't it seem most fair to allow it to be decided on a case by case basis and not by some committee meeting. Just my take though.....take it for what it is.