Sonia Bianchetti's suggested changes

[Blades of Passion]

The way spins are valued does need to be changed. It's too easy to predict what is going to happen in a spin now and the movements are too set-in-stone for points, not done in accordance with the music.

Spins used to be like a dream. You wouldn't know what would happen in them, they would just happen and they would reflect the skater's own personality and the program. Usually people would do one kind of special thing in the spin to make to different. Sometimes really good spinners would give us more. Spins were undervalued in the sport for a long time but now that they are mostly just mechanical. Everyone can put a bunch of different positions into spins, it's not special. They should be scored more on the speed, fluidity, line, effortlessness, and creativity.

 

[lyndichee]

I agree that spins need to be graded differently and anonymous judging needs to be abolished but I don't think jump elements with falls or two-foots should have no points. People have mistakes and bad days.

The only problem I could see with the falls are people going for jumps that they can't seem to land. For instance, judges should give feedback to those like Alaine who continuously try to nail tougher jumps but in reality she's just trying to get lucky landing the 3A for the first time. I can't watch that kind of performance and I absolutely adore Alaine.

Also someone needs to do something about PCS. Skating skills need to be emphasized in scoring; I think it can really separate skaters from jumps. I really disagree with the fact that a clean performance somehow merits good scores all around.

I don't think we need to change who the judges are. We need to change how their marks are disclosed. If you are an experienced professional that has gone through many competitions to get to judge on the world stage, you better be able to publicly defend your work. If you can't then don't expect to sit on the judging panel.

 

[Mathman]

I think we do need the bonus for the second half of the SP, because there is no amount of backloading that I hate more than seeing the first elements of a SP be the jumps. Make some sort of limit on the jumping passes or write that no two/three jumping passes should be back-to-back if you must, but do not get rid of the bonus.

The problem with the bonus (more in the long program than the short) it that it guarantees that skaters will spend a lot of time in the first half of the program resting up, then at precisely the stroke of the halfway mark here comes a flurry of jumps.

To me, the ideal would be somehow to reward programs that have the jumps paced to augment the choreography and to highlight the music.

 

[solani]

I also think that there should be lesser jumping passes in the free, deleting one combination would be good. And the ISU should do something about the FS, because it's actually only a longer SP, but it feels more crammed than the SP to me. I actually like watching the SPs better than the FSs nowadays and I remember times when I found the SP's boring (also because the more exciting jumps where happening in the FSs).
The freedom is missing from the FS. And I completely agree that the ISU has to do something about those spins, that are only a couple of skaters who have the ability to make those level 4 spins exciting to watch. And it should be about how good a spinner the skater is and not about whether the skater is a contortionist or not.
I think Sonia Bianchetti made suggestions that are exaggerated, but she did that on purpose, because sometimes you're only heard when you're exaggerating. And she succeeded. The discussion about CoP is necessary and important.

 

[moriel]

I disagree about removing jumping passes.
Taking one out of FS benefits skaters with weaker jumps. Come on, it is a sport!

 

[Violet Bliss]

I agree that spins need to be graded differently and anonymous judging needs to be abolished but I don't think jump elements with falls or two-foots should have no points. People have mistakes and bad days.

The only problem I could see with the falls are people going for jumps that they can't seem to land. For instance, judges should give feedback to those like Alaine who continuously try to nail tougher jumps but in reality she's just trying to get lucky landing the 3A for the first time. I can't watch that kind of performance and I absolutely adore Alaine.

Also someone needs to do something about PCS. Skating skills need to be emphasized in scoring; I think it can really separate skaters from jumps. I really disagree with the fact that a clean performance somehow merits good scores all around.

I don't think we need to change who the judges are. We need to change how their marks are disclosed. If you are an experienced professional that has gone through many competitions to get to judge on the world stage, you better be able to publicly defend your work. If you can't then don't expect to sit on the judging panel.

I mostly agree with you except maybe understanding those who persistently attempt and fail specific jumps. It maybe a point getting strategy at certain times by certain skaters under the competition circumstances. It may also be the determination of some skaters to do in competitions what they are able to do in practice. It may be also chances taken when the jump consistency is still questionable. There is never a guarantee a skater will land a particular jump at all times especially during competitions. They may have different standard as to when to start attempting a new jump at a competition. I remember Patrick Chan saying it's at 80% level for him. And then there are a few who actually rise to the occasion at competition succeeding at what is rather inconsistent at practice for them.

Sometimes it's hard to decide if we should admire skaters such as Dice Takahashi, Jeremy Abbott, and Mao Asada, or to shake our heads at their stubbornness.

 

[rain]

The problem with the bonus (more in the long program than the short) it that it guarantees that skaters will spend a lot of time in the first half of the program resting up, then at precisely the stroke of the halfway mark here comes a flurry of jumps.

To me, the ideal would be somehow to reward programs that have the jumps paced to augment the choreography and to highlight the music.

This is an issue I have at present. I used to hate all the front-loaded programs, but now, with the institution of the bonus, there's a whole bunch of back-loaded programs! The idea with the bonus was to encourage the skaters to space out the jumps for better balanced programs but what's happened in practice is just a swing of the pendulum to the other extreme. So something to actually encourage the spacing out of the jumps throughout the choreography would be much appreciated.

 

[Interspectator]

I mostly agree with you except maybe understanding those who persistently attempt and fail specific jumps. It maybe a point getting strategy at certain times by certain skaters under the competition circumstances. It may also be the determination of some skaters to do in competitions what they are able to do in practice. It may be also chances taken when the jump consistency is still questionable. There is never a guarantee a skater will land a particular jump at all times especially during competitions. They may have different standard as to when to start attempting a new jump at a competition. I remember Patrick Chan saying it's at 80% level for him. And then there are a few who actually rise to the occasion at competition succeeding at what is rather inconsistent at practice for them.

Sometimes it's hard to decide if we should admire skaters such as Dice Takahashi, Jeremy Abbott, and Mao Asada, or to shake our heads at their stubbornness.

Yuzu's 4S everyone thought was a certain fall two seasons ago. But he was nailing it in practice and it was just a matter of time that it clicked in competition. This season, it has 100% success in competition. However, I do agree with harsher penalties for falls. I'm not sure I'd invalidate the whole element for a fall.
But just increase the penalty for falling anywhere in your program.

 

[MaxSwagg]

I mostly agree with you except maybe understanding those who persistently attempt and fail specific jumps. It maybe a point getting strategy at certain times by certain skaters under the competition circumstances. It may also be the determination of some skaters to do in competitions what they are able to do in practice. It may be also chances taken when the jump consistency is still questionable. There is never a guarantee a skater will land a particular jump at all times especially during competitions. They may have different standard as to when to start attempting a new jump at a competition. I remember Patrick Chan saying it's at 80% level for him. And then there are a few who actually rise to the occasion at competition succeeding at what is rather inconsistent at practice for them.

Sometimes it's hard to decide if we should admire skaters such as Dice Takahashi, Jeremy Abbott, and Mao Asada, or to shake our heads at their stubbornness.

Well, it's not Dai's fault his knee pretty much exploded so I wouldn't include him. Plus, even when he has mistakes, I don't mind because he still gives a spectacular performance. Jeremy is just a mental head case. Mao, she is understandable. If she lessened her tech difficulty and put out easier but clean and consistent skates, she could be winning and winning. But, as you said, she will do what she wants (as she always has) and that's one of the reasons why we love her.

 

[moriel]

This is an issue I have at present. I used to hate all the front-loaded programs, but now, with the institution of the bonus, there's a whole bunch of back-loaded programs! The idea with the bonus was to encourage the skaters to space out the jumps for better balanced programs but what's happened in practice is just a swing of the pendulum to the other extreme. So something to actually encourage the spacing out of the jumps throughout the choreography would be much appreciated.

Hmmmmm I disagree... It is quite balanced for men right now. As for ladies, I'm sure once more of them start trying harder jumps, it will balance out again:

Men at GPF:

3 1
3 1
3 1
1 3
2 2
2 2

14 first half x 10 second half
There is no excessive backloading, its just balanced. If anything, more jumps could be placed at second half.

Women at GPF:

0 4
1 3
3 1
2 2
2 2
1 3

9 first half x 15 second half

Taking out Evgenia, it is pretty balanced too.

So basically, here we have 12 skaters. They are among best of athletes currently skating. Adding it up, we have 23 jumps at first half and 25 jumps second half.
No backloading on average, the jumps are distributed quite evenly.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

This is an issue I have at present. I used to hate all the front-loaded programs, but now, with the institution of the bonus, there's a whole bunch of back-loaded programs! The idea with the bonus was to encourage the skaters to space out the jumps for better balanced programs but what's happened in practice is just a swing of the pendulum to the other extreme. So something to actually encourage the spacing out of the jumps throughout the choreography would be much appreciated.

This is a good chance for me to suggest that the ISU actually reduce rules and stop meddling with them every four years and allow more freedom in the sport. Zayak was also intended to encourage variety of jumps but today all it does is ensure that we see almost the exact same jump layout and ultimately...almost the exact same programs just run in different order by nearly every skater. Look at how dumb the Tano rule is. Maybe some Tanos deserve a GOE and some don't. It would be better to leave it in the hands of the judges and let them judge if they actually raise the value of a jumping pass and more importantly the program as a whole.

FWIW: I don't care at all if a skater front loads or back loads a program. It's their choice and I'm willing to respect their vision. I also don't think that equally spaced out jumps makes a program any better. It should match the structure of music and feeling of it.

 

[rain]

We don't want the sport to be lead by a skater who is only good one aspect and not both. And remember Patrick's dominance in figure skating for the 3 years up to Olympics with his controversial win? That was what actually killing the sport. However, his lopsided strength actually gave rise to people like Hanyu and Javier who improved their PCS tremendously. Jin's presence in the sports now, to me, is just like Patrick's presence back then and maybe a little less harmful to the sport, because we now have skaters who are actually good BOTH technically and artistically so he will never dominate unless he improves his TES. I think with the current weightage between TES and PCS in the judging system, (though we can nitpick a lot on the criteria in the component scores but let's not get into that), it actually makes the sports so much more exciting!!

This is an interesting re-write of history. I'm guessing you really dislike Patrick Chan. The truth of the matter is that the skaters who most pushed the technical (jumping) side of skating forward following the 2010 Olympics was Chan. Prior to 2010 Chan was a young up-and-comer was still working on his technical arsenal. Per interviews with him, he had actually planned to learn a quad for that Olympic year, but was unable to due to the back injury that hampered him all of that season. But I digress. Sure, Chan was scoring relatively well in competition at that time due to his superb skating skills that really were (and are) second to none. But there were a lot of guys at that time that were competing at the elite level without a quad (e.g. the Olympic champion), and those who did have quads tended to be noticeably lacking in other important PCS areas (something of a holdover from the transition to IJS) so he was hardly dragging the field down.

Then, in 2011 he rewrote the rules of the game when he came out and nailed not one, but two quads in his LP, one of them a quad-triple. This technical superiority (at the time, nobody else in the field was doing this), along with his skating skills forced the competition to a new technical level. Was he always successful in landing his jumps over the next four years? Nope. But I'd argue that none of his victories were any more arguable than Hanyu's five-fall victory last season, head injury or not (I don't give pity points).

I just couldn't allow your misrepresentation of Chan's career and effect on the field to go unanswered.

As for Jin, the concerning thing is the judge's predilection for giving big PCS marks, deserved or not, to people with big technical content. They may start out separating the two when someone is a relative unknown, but it seems that changes as the judges get more familiar with them, whether there's been any noticeable improvement in other skating skills or not. It's not a problem that's unique to Jin.

 

[shiroKJ]

But I'd argue that none of his victories were any more arguable than Hanyu's five-fall victory last season, head injury or not (I don't give pity points).

Small correction, it wasn't a victory. It was a silver medal.

Everyone always forgets poor Kovtun lol...

 

[MaxSwagg]

This is an interesting re-write of history. I'm guessing you really dislike Patrick Chan. The truth of the matter is that the skaters who most pushed the technical (jumping) side of skating forward following the 2010 Olympics was Chan. Prior to 2010 Chan was a young up-and-comer was still working on his technical arsenal. Per interviews with him, he had actually planned to learn a quad for that Olympic year, but was unable to due to the back injury that hampered him all of that season. But I digress. Sure, Chan was scoring relatively well in competition at that time due to his superb skating skills that really were (and are) second to none. But there were a lot of guys at that time that were competing at the elite level without a quad (e.g. the Olympic champion), and those who did have quads tended to be noticeably lacking in other important PCS areas (something of a holdover from the transition to IJS) so he was hardly dragging the field down.

Then, in 2011 he rewrote the rules of the game when he came out and nailed not one, but two quads in his LP, one of them a quad-triple. This technical superiority (at the time, nobody else in the field was doing this), along with his skating skills forced the competition to a new technical level. Was he always successful in landing his jumps over the next four years? Nope. But I'd argue that none of his victories were any more arguable than Hanyu's five-fall victory last season, head injury or not (I don't give pity points).

I just couldn't allow your misrepresentation of Chan's career and effect on the field to go unanswered.

As for Jin, the concerning thing is the judge's predilection for giving big PCS marks, deserved or not, to people with big technical content. They may start out separating the two when someone is a relative unknown, but it seems that changes as the judges get more familiar with them, whether there's been any noticeable improvement in other skating skills or not. It's not a problem that's unique to Jin.

Um...Takahashi was no slouch either and DEFINITELY didn't take heed from Patrick Chan.

 

[Mathman]

FWIW: I don't care at all if a skater front loads or back loads a program. It's their choice and I'm willing to respect their vision. I also don't think that equally spaced out jumps makes a program any better. It should match the structure of music and feeling of it.

In the case of the long program, four-and-a-half minutes of music is bound to have an internal rise and fall structure. It would be a strange cut to have music that was all fireworks for the first two minutes, then petered out into blah meanderings for the rest.

Actually, I don't see anything wrong with the old 6.0 formula, which featured a slow part in the middle (generally referred to by the skaters as "the slow part" ), sort of like all classical music in three movements: fast, slow, very fast. By a stroke of luck this was just for the thing for the skaters, too. Jump, jump, jump, rest, rest, rest (maybe a spin or two), jump, jump, jump. The whole world in perfect harmony. :yes:

 

[VIETgrlTerifa]

I also like programs that go slow fast slow fast like Kwan's Song of the Black Swan.

 

[Mathman]

I also like programs that go slow fast slow fast like Kwan's Song of the Black Swan.

Yes, Michelle used utterly unique music in the first two-thirds of her career. Lori Nichol worked hard to create one-of-a-kind programs for her.

 

[GF2445]

Sonia's suggestion comes from a good place, but I don't agree with all her suggestions.
If the ISU are going to make changes to the system after 2018, they are going to have to almost 'reset' again. All the scores from then on would have to be made invalid.

 

[fruitbasket]

After 2015 GPF, Lakernik of Russia suggests to change the ISU rules...Bianchetti suggests removing/ reducing jumping passes. I do not get it.. Need to change Anonymous ISU judging system first. Figure skating is a sport and Figure skaters are athletes. Skaters require to perform difficult jumping passes.

 

[yellowricenoodle]

This is an interesting re-write of history. I'm guessing you really dislike Patrick Chan. The truth of the matter is that the skaters who most pushed the technical (jumping) side of skating forward following the 2010 Olympics was Chan. Prior to 2010 Chan was a young up-and-comer was still working on his technical arsenal. Per interviews with him, he had actually planned to learn a quad for that Olympic year, but was unable to due to the back injury that hampered him all of that season. But I digress. Sure, Chan was scoring relatively well in competition at that time due to his superb skating skills that really were (and are) second to none. But there were a lot of guys at that time that were competing at the elite level without a quad (e.g. the Olympic champion), and those who did have quads tended to be noticeably lacking in other important PCS areas (something of a holdover from the transition to IJS) so he was hardly dragging the field down.

Then, in 2011 he rewrote the rules of the game when he came out and nailed not one, but two quads in his LP, one of them a quad-triple. This technical superiority (at the time, nobody else in the field was doing this), along with his skating skills forced the competition to a new technical level. Was he always successful in landing his jumps over the next four years? Nope. But I'd argue that none of his victories were any more arguable than Hanyu's five-fall victory last season, head injury or not (I don't give pity points).

I just couldn't allow your misrepresentation of Chan's career and effect on the field to go unanswered.

As for Jin, the concerning thing is the judge's predilection for giving big PCS marks, deserved or not, to people with big technical content. They may start out separating the two when someone is a relative unknown, but it seems that changes as the judges get more familiar with them, whether there's been any noticeable improvement in other skating skills or not. It's not a problem that's unique to Jin.

Thanks for your opinion. But I have to state that I actually do like Patrick Chan's skating, and have always thought that he contributed a lot in bringing artistry in figure skating to a higher level. Perhaps it is my fault that I did not state my stance in this particular post, hence leading you to think that I dislike Patrick Chan. Let me make it clear this time. I absolutely adore his performance so I hope you would also stop accusing me of ad hominem.

However, I have to disagree with you on giving credits to Chan for pushing the sports on the technical sides. You have been in the forum for 12 years longer than me (WOW!!) and I am sure you have more experience in this sports than I do. Correct me if I'm wrong, but a quick research on the history of quad in figure skating dawned upon me that the ones who really pushed the sports to include Quads were people like Plushenko, Brian Joubert, Yagudin, etc.. It all began from Kurt Browning who landed it back in 1988. Yagudin landed two quads in 2002 Olympics, a quad-triple-double, and a solo Quad. Plushenko also included two. Quads have already been there since those times. It slowly became something so essential in the sport that in 2008 when Jeffrey won the World Championship without a quad, it sparked some interesting debate. Similarly in 2010 when Evan won the Olympics without a quad, the controversy had so much impact in the sports that it lead to the increase in Quad's BV. There are many other skaters who have already been attempting Quads in their programs (another good example is Takahashi), all had happened before Chan even started including Quad in his program. In addition, I think I have read articles where Patrick made his opinion clear that he sided with Jeffrey and Evan and he thought both of them deserved their medals because of their overall quality of the program even though they are a little behind technical wise. It seems like you have been following his career closely for quite sometime and you watch his interviews too, I'm pretty sure you are aware of this. =)

Although I agree that his performance is second to none during his era, but I also can't allow you to misrepresent Chan's effect on the field here.

He definitely pushed the sport forward, but only with his skating skills, and not technical wise. His increase in technical skills post Vancouver was a result of the efforts from the Quad pioneers and the consequence of the increase of BV values in Quads. He did not rewrite the rules of the game, he merely followed. So is the case with Javi and Hanyu and all the skaters that we are seeing these days.

I believe that competitive sport should be an activity that challenges the human physical limit. Compared to other sports in the Olympics, sometimes I encounter people asking me if figure skating and artistic gymnastics etc can really be TRULY considered as a sport because it requires human judgement. But I believe the fact that we are all gathering here, means we have the same answer in our mind. Figure skating is a sport, and it is a beautiful one.

From this perspective, I would like to see figure skating to be an activity that will encourage the skaters to keep challenge themselves physically so it is really, a sport! And it deserves to be included in the Olympics agenda. Hence this is why I think figure skating should be lead by skater, *ANY SKATER*, who will keep exploring the limit of the human body. Additionally, because figure skating is a beautiful sport, it comes with an additional condition - the skater should also be able to present a beautiful performance that is aesthetically pleasing too.

In that sense, I think Patrick has done only half the job very well- the latter. His presence made a huge impact in the sport. Like what you said, there were many people with Quads who had noticeably poor presentation. What he had done to the sport is that he had put on pressures to other skaters to improve their presentation better so they can at least compete with him on the same level. And I like it when I see athletes play the catch up like this That's competing and that's just the nature of sport.

Overtime, the field became even more interesting. I think the other skaters have realised that increasing their presentation could only allow them to be on par with Chan. It wasn't enough to beat him. Again, like what you said, his skating skills was second to none, so he has some points to cushion even when he doesn't deliver his best performance. Chan's Worlds'12 title over Denis Ten - I still feel bad for Denis but the one with higher points is the winner in this sport, so Denis can only admit defeat. *Awww poor Denis*

It's fine if this happens once a while. But just imagine if situation like this is were to happen over and over again, will it still be fun to watch? I certainly wouldn't find this interesting and I probably would change my mind thinking that figure skating might as well be considered as "a sporty art performance" rather than "an artistic sport". What happened next was that the other athletes stepped up and increase their TES so they wouldn't just only be able to compete with him on the same level, but to actually win him. Now the game is getting even more interesting!

This is why I think it is good to see people like Jin entering the field. It brings some fire on the ice. It puts some pressure on the rest of the field to play the catch up. That's competing. That's sport. Just writing this as I imagine how others react to his presence is already making me as a spectator so excited.

I don't particularly dislike any skater. And I don't give criticism just because I "dislike" someone. I just want to see more competitiveness in the sport so I think it is worth buying a ticket to the Worlds 2016 in Boston. Trust me, I actually hope that Patrick will actually increase his TES to beat Javi and Hanyu next season, or maybe in the World. It was quite disappointing when I read an interview with Patrick after what happened at NHK that he is "not going to change a thing". That's quite boring

https://sportymags.wordpress.com/20...terview-thoughts-about-yuzus-nhk-performance/
http://www.thestar.com/sports/skati...e-catching-up-to-do-in-barcelona-dimanno.html

Btw, your post is also an interesting re-write of history. :agree: