Sonia Bianchetti's thoughts on U.S. Nationals

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I don't get the whole idea about difficult jumps. If a skater is Senior, the skater should be able to do difficult jumps or why bother attempting them? It's like the racer did intend to pick up his speed during the last two laps but his body just wouldn't let him. So how many seconds does one deduct for the intent?

If the skater can not do difficult jumps, then, imo, should not be a Senior.

Quads are rather common now. If a Senior skater wishes to go after a Quint beyond practice then that's the skater's businness - not the techn assistants or the judges who imo, should call or judge only what they see.

Joe

 

[Mathman]

Mathman, have you been at Dortmund during the Worlds 2004?

No, I couldn't make it in person. But they did have good television coverage of that event. Joesitz and Hockeyfan both attended from the U.S. and have posted lots of insights about the competition on Golden Skate.

Wasn't Lambiel's [problem] with the new judging system that his spins were way too simple and only got minor levels? His spins were so fast in Dortmund and they are still great but not as fast and he seems to have problems with the centering (?) from time to time.

I think that is correct, although Lambiel's old spins look to me like they have enough changes of position to satisfy the CoP. Maybe he needed more changes of edges.

Michelle Kwan was never an outstanding spinner, but she worked hard at it and eventually achieved variations (like her "heart" layback position with her hands behind her and her free leg down) which at least looked pretty and were a satisfactory complement to her programs.

When the CoP came out she and her coaches studied it and decided that her best chance was to continue doing lower level spins, but try to make up ground in GOE by doing them exceptionably well.

It didn't work out. The judges did not give her any bonus for quality, and other skaters like Sasha (more flexible) were getting higher levels. So in the fall she went to work practising more difficult spins featuring more contortionist positions. She hurt her back while working on them and had to drop out of the Grand Prix. With her back problems, the continuing deterioration of her hip, and then a groin pull the next year, she was never really the same again.

In my opinion, what the CoP does not reward properly is "Skating Skills" This is one tenth of a skaters score (one of the five equally weighted program component scores). One could make the argument that it ought to be 100%. After all, this is a skating contest. Aren't we supposed to be deciding who can skate the best?

To me, the place where skaters like Michelle Kwan, Stephane Lambiel and Johnny Weir excel is the quality of their edges and their flow across the ice. Michelle did not jump higher than everyone else. Michelle did not spin in more outre postitions than everyone else. She was not faster than everyone else.

But she won five world championships because she skated better than anyone else.

This, to me, is the missing piece in the CoP puzzle.

 

[Jaana]

When the CoP came out she and her coaches studied it and decided that her best chance was to continue doing lower level spins, but try to make up ground in GOE by doing them exceptionably well.

It didn't work out. The judges did not give her any bonus for quality, and other skaters like Sasha (more flexible) were getting higher levels. So in the fall she went to work practising more difficult spins featuring more contortionist positions. She hurt her back while working on them and had to drop out of the Grand Prix.

I believe that the last time Kwan participated in Grand Prix (= the way the seeded skaters do) was in December 2001.

To me, the place where skaters like Michelle Kwan, Stephane Lambiel and Johnny Weir excel is the quality of their edges and their flow across the ice.

Well, Lambiel excels in a lot more, as he excels also in difficulty.

 

[Mathman]

Well, Lambiel excels in a lot more, as he excels also in difficulty.

I have never been a big fan of difficulty for the sake of difficulty. A "well-balanced" program (as the CoP puts it ), where highlight moves complement and accent the presentation as a whole -- that's more my speed.

I like Lysacek for just that reason. His frantic quads and furious footwork all fit together. He gives it his all every time out. There is an authenticity to his performances that not every skater brings.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I just came from an afternoon at the NYC Ballet, and discussing some of the performances with the balletomanes that i know, I mentioned a particular dancer whom I liked the most this afternoon and in general in the company. They didn't appreciate it. They wanted a Male and I emphasize MALE dancer who jumps high and looks as though he could take care of the female dancers, if you get the drift.

Not much difference in skating preferences (other than nationality which doesn't exist in ballet).

For me, Lambiel has the quality of a premiere dancer on ice. I don't give a hoot about the quad unless there is some dance involved. However, I don't look at competitions that way, and a Quad Lutz will have me nod to the skater that can do it.

Joe

 

[Mathman]

I believe that the last time Kwan participated in Grand Prix (= the way the seeded skaters do) was in December 2001.

I think that after the 2002 Olympics Michelle made a decision to scale back, take some time off, and think about her goals and her future as a competitive skater.

Then she was "coerced" by the USFSA (they "made her an offer she couldn't refuse," LOL) into doing 2002 Skate America when Oly champion Sarah Hughes withdrew because of injury. USFS had heavily promoted Sarah and had sold a lot of tickets, so they thought they needed a headliner to save the event.

(The ironic thing is that, although Michelle won for the ladies, she was upstaged publicity-wise by the super-photogenic teenagers Jenny Kirk and Ann Patrice McDonnough, by the first TWO triple Axels in ladies' competition in a decade (Nakano and Nelidina), and by the U.S. debut of heartthrob Brian Joubert, who won the men's event and was the talk of the town. :yes: )

Anyway...this gave Michelle the incentive to soldier on, at least to the extent of participating in 2003 U.S. Nationals and 2003 Worlds, since Worlds was in the U.S. that year.

In 2003 she passed up the Grand Prix. I don't remember if she intended to participate in 2004 or not -- maybe I have my years mixed up -- but once she decided to try for the 2006 Olympics, I think she did intend to pick up the pace and give it the full shot in the fall of 2005. In both of her events, IIRC, she withdrew only a week before the competition, citing back injury. I believe that her injuries were of the type where she felt OK one day, then the next the pain returned and she couldn't practice, then the day after it seemed like maybe she could do it after all.

In retrospect it looks like self-delusion. But at the time I think she continued to hope against hope, right up until her first practice session in Torino.

 

[Hikaru]

That is an outstanding observation, IMHO. The danger is that we will eventually forget that figure skating was once something more than just another sport.

while I like the CoP, I won't say it's a perfect system. I understand most of the technical score, but the PCS are the ones I am watching closely. How do the judges work this marks? do they start from 10.00 and start deducting? or they just think "hmmm, I think in Skating skills he deserves aan 8.25"? thsi scores have to make sense with what a skater did on the ice. If they double footed a jump, had a fall, they had a step out, then they are not presenting good skating skills, and therefore their score should be a low one in that section, I think.

To me, the fact that Johnny lost it's not so much a fail on the system per se, but rather the judges awarding a wrong score to Evan, too high grades for what he did.

 

[GoldMedalist]

I just watched it again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRQVeaD2iu8

Lambiel's performance was one of those "whole is greater than the sum of its parts" experiences. I think the last time I felt that way was Slutskaya's 2005 Worlds LP. (BTW, in terms of CoP judging, I thought the judges felt the same way that I did. Component by component, Irina was overmarked, but the performance was so amazing the judges just automatically gave her the highest possible scores in everything.)

I didn't get that from this performance. Have to agree with Button that it was a bit "all over the lot".

I might have him in 2nd for the LP but I'd still put him 4th overall, with the big mistake in the SP (falling on the opening jump of your combo is a double whammy).