State of Russian Men's Figure Skating 2015-2016

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Also,
Yuna's 2010 Oly skate: 33.80 SP and 71.76 FS
Evgenia GPF 2016: 34.38 SP and 72.37 FS

Okay there, go and tell people Evgenia is better than Yuna in PCs department =)

Basically, when doing your sarcasm emote, you forget two things:
1. Plushy got those PCs after tons of injuries and kinda past the peak of his career, and you compare him to Ten, Chan and Fernandez at their best. Not fair.
2. PCs are given away like candy now, look at the example above ^^.

Even before PCS was given away like candy (I'd say, the past 2 seasons), Fernandez/Ten/Chan (well, Fernandez/Chan in particular since Ten is inconsistent) were scoring well above what Plushenko ever earned.

Also, I wasn't the one saying Plushenko had PCS like Fernandez/Ten/Chan, and then had to point out the simple fact that their personal bests are higher (although for Javi's I probably should have used EC2016 PCS 46.58/94.36, instead of the crazy high home inflated GPF PCS). Although, even taking everyone into consideration at the peak of their skating (and we're talking programs/ability/difficulty, not just what the judges would score them), I'd without a doubt place Fernandez/Chan/Ten's best above Plushenko's best. Although if we're talking consistency and who I'd bet my money on to land their jump elements, Plushenko would beat those other guys out by a long shot (although to be fair to the other guys, their programs are significantly more complex with harder transitions and choreography, hence why they got higher PCS, even if you go back a few seasons before this season when judges started going crazy with their PCS).

 

[gmyers]

Fernandez's personal best PCS: 46.96 (SP) & 96.78(FS)
Ten's personal best PCS: 44.75 & 91.40
Chan's personal best PCS: 47.18 & 96.50
Plushenko's personal best PCS: 42.50 & 88.84

Okay there. :sarcasm:

I knew you would misunderstand! I meant pcs in the range of the leaders of any competion he was at and he would sometimes lead pcs. But it wasnt as a jump bonus. Kovtun will never be in the range of the leaders because of his opposition to artistry and performance. Kovtun is not learning that from plushenko.

 

[gmyers]

I was fan of Plush for all the years, but cmon in no way he ever deserved PCS over 40 in SP and over 80 in FS. He had 0 transitions and basically 0 choreography when he got those marks. He was 6.0 skater.

Plushenko got so many 6.0's. that was because of all artistic impression elements like choreo , performance etc. you and so many others are going by a narrow definition but now prevailing interpretation of what transitions are. The Inman definition of transitions which is only stuff like Ina Bauer and spread eagle before a jump. Isu says any movement of upper or lower body before or after any technical element.

 

[plushyfan]

I was fan of Plush for all the years, but cmon in no way he ever deserved PCS over 40 in SP and over 80 in FS. He had 0 transitions and basically 0 choreography when he got those marks. He was 6.0 skater.

no choreography???

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBJtNXvyWbg 2012 LP

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kX6s8tRPP7Y SP

 

[Jaana]

no choreography???

Yes, there is choreography, for footwork and a lot for arms. If I watch his feet, it is lacking.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

no choreography???

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBJtNXvyWbg 2012 LP

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kX6s8tRPP7Y SP

As I mentioned before, his 2012 EC LP/SP is the best and, IMO, only example of a CoP-noteworthy competition (ie well-rounded skating/transitions/choreography outside of just the jump elements and throughout the program instead of just footwork). Some of his later footwork sequences also proved that he can do difficult turns effortlessly, so it's rather disappointing that more weren't incorporated throughout his programs (save for EC2012) since he clearly has the capability.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I knew you would misunderstand! I meant pcs in the range of the leaders of any competion he was at and he would sometimes lead pcs. But it wasnt as a jump bonus. Kovtun will never be in the range of the leaders because of his opposition to artistry and performance. Kovtun is not learning that from plushenko.

You are confounding 6.0 artistry and performance with CoP Program components. Because Plushenko certainly wasn't all that committed to strong program components (even going as far as trivializing the need for transitions in his programs). He knew that if he (and only he) skated cleanly, his PCS would at least be comparable to the other guys (and if he was last to skate and others bombed and he went clean, he would get higher PCS.

Kovtun is committed to strong program components, but lacks Plushenko's presence and command of the ice which means stronger performance capability (which is only 1 of the 5 PCS scores, and frankly the only PCS category I think he deserved to have one of the top scores, in most cases... Maybe SS given his speed and control, but rarely implemented a variety of multi-directional/one-footed/deep edged skating skills throughout his programs). Kovtun's choreo is more CoP friendly in that it incorporates the intricacy but the problem is the top-top guys are wayyy ahead of him in terms of interpretation/performance ability (although to be fair, it's just his 3rd entirely Senior season).

 

[Perdita]

I'd rather bet on Kovtun winning the World Gold this year than you guys coming to a mutual conclusion

Maybe too early to guess, but I was wondering how things will work out for GPS next season. My thoughts:
- Assuming that Kovtun and Kolyada will go to the World, they have the chances to secure two spots by placing within 12th.
- Pitkeev, Menshov and Voronov will likely secure at least a spot with their WR/SB, I'm a bit worried about Petrov, he probably needs to go to an international competition to move up in WR?
- Seems like Artur D. will get a spot!
- Samarin and Lazukin will be senior next season, Samarin can secure a spot if he podiums at JW.
- Will Aliev move up to senior too?
- Who else will be senior next season?
- Moris...

I may be wrong, the rules regarding these spots are quite complicated and I still don't know how the skaters are invited. What are your thoughts? Who would you like to see?

 

[adelia]

I'd rather bet on Kovtun winning the World Gold this year than you guys coming to a mutual conclusion

Maybe too early to guess, but I was wondering how things will work out for GPS next season. My thoughts:
- Assuming that Kovtun and Kolyada will go to the World, they have the chances to secure two spots by placing within 12th.
- Pitkeev, Menshov and Voronov will likely secure at least a spot with their WR/SB, I'm a bit worried about Petrov, he probably needs to go to an international competition to move up in WR?
- Seems like Artur D. will get a spot!
- Samarin and Lazukin will be senior next season, Samarin can secure a spot if he podiums at JW.
- Will Aliev move up to senior too?
- Who else will be senior next season?
- Moris...

I may be wrong, the rules regarding these spots are quite complicated and I still don't know how the skaters are invited. What are your thoughts? Who would you like to see?

Kovtun, Kolyada, Aliev and Pitkeev will definitely get 2 GP spots next season. There is no question at all. Petrov will get at least 1 spot, probably 2. Voronov will probably get at least 1 spot, although that depends on some other factors. Samarin may or may not move to seniors. Dmitriev and Moris, hard to say, they may get nothing.

 

[Perdita]

Kovtun, Kolyada, Aliev and Pitkeev will definitely get 2 GP spots next season. There is no question at all. Petrov will get at least 1 spot, probably 2. Voronov will probably get at least 1 spot, although that depends on some other factors. Samarin may or may not move to seniors. Dmitriev and Moris, hard to say, they may get nothing.

Ah I was miscalculating the age, Samarin and Lazukin can stay a year more. Won't Voronov and Dmitriev get a spot if their SB stays above 24th? I thought that's quite likely but maybe not so much...

 

[adelia]

Ah I was miscalculating the age, Samarin and Lazukin can stay a year more. Won't Voronov and Dmitriev get a spot if their SB stays above 24th? I thought that's quite likely but maybe not so much...

Voronov will get at least 1 spot. According to the rules Dmitriev would too, but it's hard to say. I guess if he doesn't bomb at the Russian Cup Final.

 

[plushyfan]

Yes, there is choreography, for footwork and a lot for arms. If I watch his feet, it is lacking.

I'm sure you know how much adore it the European viewers, most of the the European FS fans, and the European media. This program, this performance was classy, immersive, INTERESTING!!! Sometime a "well-choreographed" program for example some Chan's programs are deadly boring and sometimes many too busy programs are soooooooo annoying. In my country there is a proverb: Less sometime is more...

In an another competition a german commentator said: the situation is like you can see it at school. Some skaters are a very diligent pupils trying to do what teacher want him to do and Evgeni is a genius, who knows he is a genius and not paying attention at what teacher says......

 

[plushyfan]

As I mentioned before, his 2012 EC LP/SP is the best and, IMO, only example of a CoP-noteworthy competition (ie well-rounded skating/transitions/choreography outside of just the jump elements and throughout the program instead of just footwork). Some of his later footwork sequences also proved that he can do difficult turns effortlessly, so it's rather disappointing that more weren't incorporated throughout his programs (save for EC2012) since he clearly has the capability.

Camerlengo said who worked with Plushenko:

"Evgeni is really capable. He surprised me with his ability and skills as a skater. I'd ask, 'Why haven't you done that before?' He did so many things, but in a competitive program you have to consider all the time the elements, the jumps, the timing, the stamina, many things. So you cannot really skate a program using all of your skills, [including] all the steps you can do and all of the other things you can do on the ice. Because you have to think, 'If I overload the program, I'm not able to do the elements.' And in the end, the elements give you the results."

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Interesting quote, plushy fan . I think EC2012 proved he can do that, and of course there have been a slew of performances by other skaters who have managed to balance the elements along with choreography. And it's not about overloading... Plushenko in most of his CoP programs didn't even load the program. I mean, is it really a matter of stamina/timing if he took just a little more time and effort to have an opening that gets into the character of the program, instead of just motoring into his first quad? If he was capable of doing it in 2012, then why didn't he do it in 2010 or 2006, when he was presumably even healthier? The obvious answer is that he felt he didn't need it, and it wasn't an issue with stamina. His 2006 Olympic LP was him essentially at his technical/physical peak and yet that was his least challenging and most basic CoP program outside of the elements.

 

[moriel]

Interesting quote, plushy fan . I think EC2012 proved he can do that, and of course there have been a slew of performances by other skaters who have managed to balance the elements along with choreography. And it's not about overloading... Plushenko in most of his CoP programs didn't even load the program. I mean, is it really a matter of stamina/timing if he took just a little more time and effort to have an opening that gets into the character of the program, instead of just motoring into his first quad? If he was capable of doing it in 2012, then why didn't he do it in 2010 or 2006, when he was presumably even healthier? The obvious answer is that he felt he didn't need it, and it wasn't an issue with stamina. His 2006 Olympic LP was him essentially at his technical/physical peak and yet that was his least challenging and most basic CoP program outside of the elements.

Well, we basically discuss if he can / cant.
Now, many skaters dont do their best when they dont feel they need it, and that doesnt mean they are less capable of it than skaters who do it all time.

 

[gmyers]

Yes, there is choreography, for footwork and a lot for arms. If I watch his feet, it is lacking.

Well things don't have to be all about the the feet and blade. ISU is really clear. Plushyfan is right when they say busyness for busyness sake is not artistry.

You are confounding 6.0 artistry and performance with CoP Program components. Because Plushenko certainly wasn't all that committed to strong program components (even going as far as trivializing the need for transitions in his programs). He knew that if he (and only he) skated cleanly, his PCS would at least be comparable to the other guys (and if he was last to skate and others bombed and he went clean, he would get higher PCS.

Kovtun is committed to strong program components, but lacks Plushenko's presence and command of the ice which means stronger performance capability (which is only 1 of the 5 PCS scores, and frankly the only PCS category I think he deserved to have one of the top scores, in most cases... Maybe SS given his speed and control, but rarely implemented a variety of multi-directional/one-footed/deep edged skating skills throughout his programs). Kovtun's choreo is more CoP friendly in that it incorporates the intricacy but the problem is the top-top guys are wayyy ahead of him in terms of interpretation/performance ability (although to be fair, it's just his 3rd entirely Senior season).

I thought you wrote kovtun is committed to strong program opponents. That's how he skates. Lets say you are right and kovtun is "intricate" he is so focused on being intricate there is zero performance and zero interpretation. Plushenko was never zero in those areas. So your belief that the foundations of Russian men's skating now is based on plushenko where is performance? Where is interpretation? Why is at zero with kovtun. As long as kovtun is at zero in performance he could never beat hanyu for world gold or win a medal.

 

[plushyfan]

Well, this is really interesting information. Honestly I don't want to see Plushy on competition, I don't think he will be able to do it. I think he wants but.....

http://www.long-program.com/2016/02/11/tomas-verner-plushenko-koennte-unter-top-3-bei-der-em-sein/

Tomas Verner:

"Now it occurs far in shows of Evgeni Plushenko. Here Verner is certain that Plushenko would do well in the last European Championship in Bratislava. "He would show two quadruple jumps in the short program and three in the free. I've seen how he jumps in training 4S, 4L and 4T ". Therefore, considering its conditions, "he would definitely end up among the top 3". Tomas has already twice Plushenko did not believe that he creates his comeback. Now he knows now: "When saying that, he makes it."


edit: this is the original Russian article http://www.sovsport.md/gazeta/article-item/882695

- Eugene aims to return to the sport, and to perform at the Olympic Games in 2018. Do you believe that he will succeed?
- If Plushenko said - he would do. It is a fact. I have twice not believe Plushenko said that he could not return. And he returned. Won. I made that promise. Yes, I do not know where it takes motivation and how to perform these complicated jumps. But I know that if he says - then do it.

- What do you think, no matter what Plushenko took place at the European Championships in Bratislava?
- If he had properly and in advance to prepare for this championship, and would do two quads in the short program, and three quads in arbitrary. Plushenko I know for a long time, saw him in training the quad Salchow, quad lutz, not to mention the sheepskin coat. Almost all the quads he jumped. If we talk about the state in which he is now riding in the "Snow King" is one of the three at the European Championships he would hit precisely.

 

[HanDomi]

Sorry, I don't believe he would handle 3 quads in long with his body or this would end with broken body totally

 

[Tutto]

I've just re-watched the men's LP at Euros and got curious about the choreo of Kovtun's program. I am sure it was discussed at the beginning of the season but I missed it. Could anyone give a gist of choreo concept or direct me where to look for the discussion? Thanks.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Well things don't have to be all about the the feet and blade. ISU is really clear. Plushyfan is right when they say busyness for busyness sake is not artistry.



I thought you wrote kovtun is committed to strong program opponents. That's how he skates. Lets say you are right and kovtun is "intricate" he is so focused on being intricate there is zero performance and zero interpretation. Plushenko was never zero in those areas. So your belief that the foundations of Russian men's skating now is based on plushenko where is performance? Where is interpretation? Why is at zero with kovtun. As long as kovtun is at zero in performance he could never beat hanyu for world gold or win a medal.

I think your hate for Kovtun is confounding your ability to objectively look at his programs and see the content he does. Yes, he's not as good a performer as Plushenko but he does commit to performance.

And newsflash, no Russian man (current or past) could best Hanyu (when he's on) for World gold. There simply hasn't been a Russian man in the CoP era with the ideal balance of technical skills and artistry that would even come close to beating Hanyu. There are few men in general who could compete with him.

If there were Russian men who could legitimately challenge Hanyu and were being held back then you might have a point, but Kovtun is clearly the best they've got. Voronov lost 2015 Russians by a hair but did errors (and 2015 Worlds proved that in the biggest event of the season Kovtun was the best Russian), and no way would Kolyada have won Russian Nats this year given his SP errors, Kovtun's higher base value, and Kolyada being still a relative "junior-turned-senior" on the scene. And it's not like by Kovtun winning Nats he's denying Voronov (in 2015) and Kolyada (in 2016) opportunities. Like I said, if they want to be Russian #1 they need to prove that they are worthy - Kovtun isn't going to simply step aside, and certainly not when he's technically the strongest Russian on paper. And you might think he gives zero performance but that's just your opinion -- clearly the Russian and international judges think otherwise, and their opinion is the one Kovtun actually gives a damn about.