Status of junior women being allowed to jump solo 3As in the SP?

[Mathman]

You know, I do have to say that this is an issue that does not make me angry at anyone. If a youngster can whirl and twirl on or above the ice, good for her. If an ice dance team continues into their thirties, growing in subtleties of edging and in depth of musical maturity, I'm all for it. Big tent. The fans are the winners.

 

[Mathman]

Was it named the kiss and cry because of the kids or the adults?!

According to Sonia Bianchetti's book "Cracked Ice," the Kiss and Cry was so-named by a production manager from the Finnish Skating Federation named Jane Erkko in planning for TV coverage of the 1983 World Championships in Helsinki. Erkko was in discussion with the cameraman about angles to get good shots of the skaters' and coaches' emotions as the scores came up. The cameraman wrote down "Kiss and Cry" on his diagram of the arena and the name stuck.

Bianchetti was the referee for the men's portion of that event. Scott Hamilton, age 24, won for the men, so I assume that he was doing the majority of the kissing along with the cheesing and grinning.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Over the years this model has gradually been abandoned to the point where now the SP is just another LP, only (mercifully IMHO) shorter. That is, the ISU has been moving more towards anything goes and may the devil take the hindmost. This would be an argument in favor of letting juniors do a triple Axel in the SP if they can, and too bad for those who can't.

But in that case, why do we need a short program at all? Every so often the idea is floated of replacing the short program and the long program by two programs of equal length but different focus -- a technical program emphasizing high octane fireworks and an "artistic program" where jumps would be limited and "second mark" values elevated to prominence. I can see merit in such proposals, although we might have to sacrifice the idea of a "balanced program" with something for everyone all woven together. (Another hallowed figure skating concept that is in jeopardy of being swept away these days, in my opinion.)

For me, I think the SP and LP still serve (slightly) different purposes. The SP allows skaters to showcase their best jump elements, whereas the LP requires a greater variety of jumps for success. While the spins and footwork sequences are important, it's usually the jumps that differentiate skaters in the standings because you see a much wider range of execution scores.

Maybe if there was an actual "artistic program," where older and more experienced skaters would have an advantage, age restrictions would make more sense. But with the current state of those programs, I don't see a compelling reason to prevent any skater who can qualify for Worlds/Olympics from competing merely because of her age.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

It so happens that for rotational elements (jumps and spins), smaller body size is an advantage. So on those elements, and often those elements alone, at least the rotational aspects thereof, younger skaters may show greater difficulty than older skaters, especially in the case of teen girls.

In terms of actual SKATING across the ice on edges (the fundamental basis of what figure skating is all about, more important than rotating in the air or in place on the ice), on average skaters tend to improve on those skills as young adults compared to when they were younger teens. The best young teens may be better than the average 20-year-olds, but assuming they are still competing at 19 or 20 themselves they will likely be stronger SKATERS by then than they were at 13 or 15, even if they can no longer rotate as quickly in the air.

Case in point, Alysa Liu. And that's with a couple of years off in between in her case.

And then of course there are performance aspects that go into the program component scores. Again, the very best junior performers may be better than the average seniors, but for any given skater the performance qualities tend to improve as they move into senior age group.

I agree that older skaters are more skilled at non-jump elements and the performance aspects, but that's not what is rewarded at either the junior or senior levels. The second mark is largely tied to how well the jumps are executed.

 

[Mathman]

I agree that older skaters are more skilled at non-jump elements and the performance aspects, but that's not what is rewarded at either the junior or senior levels. The second mark is largely tied to how well the jumps are executed.

I continue to think that children competing with adults is asking for problems beyond the question of what skills come more naturally to younger or older athleles.

 

[Magill]

I agree that older skaters are more skilled at non-jump elements and the performance aspects, but that's not what is rewarded at either the junior or senior levels. The second mark is largely tied to how well the jumps are executed.

This is so true and so sad.... and so much against the rules BTW.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

I continue to think that children competing with adults is asking for problems beyond the question of what skills come more naturally to younger or older athleles.

That's fair. But children have long competed against adults. Kwan and Lipinski skated as young seniors and turned out fine. I'm sure there are counter examples of skaters who didn't turn out fine, too. The biggest issue for me is that it seems, from all the years we've watched skating, that women doing the harder jumps peak technically at 15/16, so you're preventing these skaters from showcasing their best jumps because... they aren't 17? Lipinski would have had maybe three World Jr titles and then had to retire before eligibility under the rules now. It's not an issue for the men because their jumps continue to improve past that age (along with everything else they do on the ice), but I hate hate seeing the highest scoring skaters in their division sidelined merely because of their age. What would change my mind is if juniors limited the jumps that women could do in competition so they are minimizing injuries by not even training the most difficult elements before their bodies are ready, but that isn't the case.

 

[Mathman]

I don't know. Sometimes it seems like there are two separate sports being contested, and the junior/senior tension exists only because we are still holding out for the whole ball of wax.

Here is U.S. jump rope champion Eunice Lee, winning the gold medal in the event: how many jumps can you do in 3 minutes. She is 14 and has been winning national and international titles since age 12. I can guarantee that no 20 year old woman can beat this.

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

For a welcome relief, here she is having fun..

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

 

[gkelly]

Oh, and I would like the junior women to be allowed to do at least one 3A, simply because a good 3A is a thing of beauty and a joy forever. And rare. So the more the merrier.

They are allowed to do two 3A, in the free skate.

If you're talking about the short program specifically:

No one is allowed to do more than one 3A in the short program.

Junior women are allowed to do one 3A in the short program, if they do it in the combination. Yes, there are reasons why that might not be strategically advisable, but it is allowed.

Even if/when junior women are allowed to do 3A as the solo axel jump in the short, they will not be allowed to do a second 3A in the short. Neither are senior men.

 

[TallyT]

They are allowed to do two 3A, in the free skate.

If you're talking about the short program specifically:

No one is allowed to do more than one 3A in the short program.

Junior women are allowed to do one 3A in the short program, if they do it in the combination. Yes, there are reasons why that might not be strategically advisable, but it is allowed.

Even if/when junior women are allowed to do 3A as the solo axel jump in the short, they will not be allowed to do a second 3A in the short. Neither are senior men.

Sorry I omitted the word solo.

 

[gsk8]

During this past season's junior events, Ted and Mark seemed to hint that, for 25/26, the ISU was planning to start allowing junior women to perform solo 3As in the SP.

Has there been any update on this? When would such a rule change be announced? (Ted and Mark made it sound like it would be implemented prior to the 25/26 season.)

So far, this doesn't appear to be the case. I don't think they will make any changes for the 2025-26 season as JGP Riga Cup is right around the corner.