Stellato-Dudek on FO death spiral

[Anna K.]

FODS has never been mandatory.

The short program requires a specific death spiral each year. This year it is backward inside.
In the years where backward outside was the required element, I think recently forward outside has also been listed as an alternative.

The free skate requires one death spiral, which must be different from the death spiral in the short program. So any of FiDS, BoDS, or FoDS would be an option.

I see. Thank you!

 

[LiamForeman]

Hmm... I don't find this attractive at all. Ludmila P did it best. But just because you can do something doesn't mean that you should. Deanna just looks like she's a sack of potatoes being swung around. I think Deanna usually has impeccable taste. Not feeling this.

 

[4everchan]

As I said above, I love it in this program. It might not work in some other programs... Many talk about Deanna's position here, but what about Maxime's. The unusual forward pivot is very amazing ! I think it gives the element a much "bigger" look ! I would love to see it in person... I have the feeling it would be quite striking and of course, the camera angle and the spectator view are different and I believe that it may look even better from a bit further above rather than almost at ice level.

 

[PaulE]

Here is how the originators, the Protopopovs, performed the FO death spiral:

Thank you @SubRosa for this. I have always loved how Ludmilla was able to get down gracefully into a death spiral without having to stick her butt out. When attending a Junior Grand Prix in Lake Placid in 2007 my wife and I had the great good fortune to watch them practicing (for some exhibition I suppose) in the old 1932 rink. They were in their 70s at the time and still graceful and lovely to watch.

 

[Anna K.]

If you back the video up to 4:20, you can watch a program that consists of nothing but death spirals! And exquisite skating, of course.

Which would be an excellent idea for an exhibition nowadays.

Just dreaming

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Has FODS been the mandatory technical element of the season?

I think I remember something like this but it was long ago and I might be mistaking.

I think it would be tricky to make this the mandatory death spiral as it is exceedingly difficult and few teams would perform it well.

It requires a ton of leg strength on the part of the woman whereas inside death spirals and back outside death spirals are more natural.

All the more astonishing that comparatively older skaters like Deanna, Isabelle, Shen, and Sui all performed it.

 

[otisgear]

As I said above, I love it in this program. It might not work in some other programs... Many talk about Deanna's position here, but what about Maxime's. The unusual forward pivot is very amazing ! I think it gives the element a much "bigger" look ! I would love to see it in person... I have the feeling it would be quite striking and of course, the camera angle and the spectator view are different and I believe that it may look even better from a bit further above rather than almost at ice level.

I agree! Maxime's entry is definitely the most interesting part about their death spiral.

As for the lady's position I personally feel that blade-grab looks much better than the non blade-grab positions. Although Efimova does do a nice non blade-grab position (much nicer than Deanna's in my opinion). The prettiest FoDs still belongs to Shen Xue though, she actually makes this "ugly" death spiral look aesthetically pleasing.

 

[4everchan]

I agree! Maxime's entry is definitely the most interesting part about their death spiral.

As for the lady's position I personally feel that blade-grab looks much better than the non blade-grab positions. Although Efimova does do a nice non blade-grab position (much nicer than Deanna's in my opinion). The prettiest FoDs still belongs to Shen Xue though, she actually makes this "ugly" death spiral look aesthetically pleasing.

Shen Xue had a great position but back then! YES ! But back then, they didn't have to hold it for long... one turn and hop... To get the higher levels, I think they eed 3 revolutions ... so that may be a reason why ? No idea

 

[macy]

Here is how the originators, the Protopopovs, performed the FO death spiral:



A little stuttery on Ludmilla's part as she is descending, but then a thing of beauty. I have wondered whether this pair were able to make this difficult move work because they are both so tall. Maybe there is some physics at work that makes this a difficult move for skaters of disparate heights to perform? I speculate that getting down into the FO death spiral is dicey because if the woman gets too far forward on her skating foot, she risks tripping on her toe pick. The woman has to be balanced very precisely throughout. (But, I have never done a death spiral of any kind, so am just speculating. )

If you back the video up to 4:20, you can watch a program that consists of nothing but death spirals! And exquisite skating, of course.

this is so beautiful, her body line is really pretty. that's whats missing for me with SD/D, it's just awkward and not nice to look at.

 

[4everchan]

this is so beautiful, her body line is really pretty. that's whats missing for me with SD/D, it's just awkward and not nice to look at.

again... one turn... i think today's requirements may not help here...

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Looking at the levels of death spirals, it's quite hard for them to achieve a level 4 with the forward pivot. Based on the Level criteria, I actually think they did 3 full rotations in the "low" position, and with a difficult entry, that should have been awarded a level 4.

1) Difficult entry (immediately preceding the death spiral) and/or difficult exit
2) Full revolution(s) of the Woman when both partners are in “low” positions (counts as many times as performed)

https://www.isu.org/figure-skating/rules/sandp-handbooks-faq/24780-tp-handbook-pair-skating-2020-21-final/file

Especially tricky that Maxime's pivot leg needs to be about the height of his butt, which is obviously harder to have a continuous gliding foot around the pivot foot, thus making it harder to get extra rotations on the death spiral for a higher level. "If the Man is not doing one full revolution in prescribed low pivot position (his buttocks are not higher than the knee of the anchored foot), the Level cannot be higher than 1." Makes this super risky because instead of using a back pivot to counterbalance the woman a forward pivot means Max has to stay essentially in a lunge position when doing the death spiral (kudos to him for maintaining good carriage during that instead of hunching forwards). His footwork going into the forward pivot also has to be perfect because picking too early throws it off (whereas the man in most death spirals can just ride a BO edge then pick whenever (some even graze the ice until his partner goes down in the death spiral and then the pivot is established). Also note that the woman's head must reach the level of her skating knee. So for Maxime to do a forward pivot, Deanna has to lean instead of go down the way Ludmila Protopopov does.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

again... one turn... i think today's requirements may not help here...

"In order to get features 2), once the low position is established the position of both partners has to be continuous. If the “low” position is lost, features 2) can only be counted if performed prior to the loss"

"If the Man does not reach the pivot position at all or does not stay in this position for one revolution, or if the knee of his leg with toe pick in the ice is not clearly bent for one revolution, or if his holding arm is not fully extended for one revolution, there will be no Level called and the death spiral will have no value."

Oleg does start to rise a bit before they are both in low position for one full rotation, so it would be a level 1 at best and probably a level B/no value? It's weird the scale of values says a Death Spiral can have Basic level but I can't seem to find in the rules what would constitute just a Basic death spiral.

 

[Anna K.]

I think it would be tricky to make this the mandatory death spiral as it is exceedingly difficult and few teams would perform it well.

It requires a ton of leg strength on the part of the woman whereas inside death spirals and back outside death spirals are more natural.

All the more astonishing that comparatively older skaters like Deanna, Isabelle, Shen, and Sui all performed it.

I liked what @gkelly mentioned that it could be allowed as an alternative choice to BODS though.

And this is interesting that it seems to be popular with older skaters. Could experience also play a role?

 

[gravy]

I love Deanna but this is a hideous position. I get the code whoring and point counting but I really hate any death spirals where the woman isn't low to the ice.