Strategy or Uncaring? the 3 USA boys

[Joesitz (RIP)]

During the fluffs at NKH, when asked about the CoP scoring, both Tim and Michael said that they have to plan a strategy to get the points needed to win.
Johnny, however, said that (paraphrase) he can't be bothered with the points, he just skates the way he wants to.

Who in your opinion is right?

Joe

 

[attyfan]

IMHO, each skater needs to use the strategy most comfortable for him. I would be very surprised if all three used the same one.

 

[SailorGalaxia518]

Everybody is entitled to their opinion. I just care that they finished towards the top at worlds. One of them will walk away with a medal.

 

[Ptichka]

I think Johnny is being disingenious.

The strategy does not take place on the ice - it happens during the long months of preparation. Primarily, it's the choreographer who has to design the program in a way to rack up the most points. Then, when skater and coach develop their training regiment, they also take demands into account. For instance, Russian coach Victor Kudryavtsev has talked about how he used to just concentrate on jumps with his skaters because that brough back the most results, but now has to set up more time to work on spins and footwork. So I'm sure Johnny's team (including TT) has considered CoP from every perspective.

OTOH, I do agree with him that on the ice the skater should just skate. I think this brings better results than the skater thinking, "OK, I'll conserve my energy on this element to do a later element well". So in a way, if you take what Johnny said verbatim, he is correct.

 

[Doggygirl]

I disagree...

I think Johnny is being disingenious.

If he trusts his coach / choreo team to worry about the point values of stuff while he worries about just skating, then he's probably got a decent strategy going on for HIM. His season will tell that story - since I love his skating, I'm rooting for him to be "right" with this strategy, if it is indeed his strategy!

DG

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

OTOH, I do agree with him that on the ice the skater should just skate. I think this brings better results than the skater thinking, "OK, I'll conserve my energy on this element to do a later element well". So in a way, if you take what Johnny said verbatim, he is correct.

Although not quite the same, but to quote a great Russian ballerina, Alexandra Danilova, in her later days when teaching to young members of the corps, she would say: You must work, work, work, on your technique, and when you get on stage forget it. Just dance, dance, dance. That's what the audience wants.

Joe

 

[SkateFan4Life]

Although not quite the same, but to quote a great Russian ballerina, Alexandra Danilova, in her later days when teaching to young members of the corps, she would say: You must work, work, work, on your technique, and when you get on stage forget it. Just dance, dance, dance. That's what the audience wants.

Joe

That sounds like a good philosophy - you train, train, train, and when it comes to competition, you skate, skate, skate. Hopefully, muscle memory will come into play and the skaters won't have to spend a whole lot of time "thinking" through their programs. If their programs are solid, they (again, hopefully) should be able to just skate through them and do what they've done at practice.

Easier said than done at times, of course!

 

[tripletriple]

maybe this is too politically correct...

but isn't it kind of insulting to call them boys? michael weiss is how old? and a father of two children? doesn't that merit being called a man?

 

[soogar]

Does Johnny even need to care about COP? TT choreographed his program and we all know that she KNOWS how to squeeze out every point out of COP. Plus his coach Priscilla will steer him correctly so all he needs to do is skate.

 

[mpal2]

Plus Johnny mentioned in the interview at the end of the NHK broadcast that he felt COP caters to skaters that worked on both the technical and artistic aspects of their skating. I've always gotten the impression that Johnny had a very perfectionist attitude about both aspects. He really doesn't have too much to worry about if he keeps skating with that mentality. Isn't it supposed to be about the "total package"?

 

[Ximena]

I imagine, that Jhonny is not that worried, mostly because he knows his style works well under COP. That fluff, I guess, was taken before the competiiton took place and now seeing with what kind of margin he won, he must know he is right; so why to worry when you know everything is working really well.

Tim and Weiss on the other hand do have some problems, Tim have problems with his TCS marks so he needs to have some kind of stratehy to gain points somewhere else, of course he needs first to read carefully the rules and don't do 2 combos of 3 jumps again.

Weiss is the other way around, his jumps are not working anymore, or at least not that much, so maybe his strategy for the upcoming competitions, is to do more difficult entrance into his jumps, more in between etc.

Tim and Weiss have things to worry, Jhonny no and if he hits the quad, then he will have even less things to care about.

 

[floskate]

For those who downloaded the clips or saw the telecast, did you notice Johnny say to Priscilla just as the announcer said the scores for Technical elements
Johnny: Whatever this means! He was kind of laughing as he said it and it wasn't a derogatory thing at all.

AFAIK that was the first time he skated under CoP so maybe he is unfamiliar and leaves it to his team to worry about. But he certainly was pleased when his scores came up!!!

 

[Linny]

How Nice

How nice the Johnny has a team who will take these things into account so that he can skate up to his potential. The deer-in-the-headlights Johnny is not so far out of memory. Seems clear that, with the help of his sports psychologist, his coach, his entire network, that getting to this place in his head where he could skate is best is a long way from the place in his head that he was before.

Pretty much all the skaters can do their complete programs in practice. That means that the difference when you get in front of the judges is mental.

I truly agree that the approach of not thinking CoP, not thinking strategy, just skating, is the best approach for him.

For MW, a different approach is needed. He didn't go for his quad at the one competition (don't want to name it because that would belong in the Event Forum) and instead went for a three-jump combination. Has he ever taken that approach before? Perhaps that strategy will work for him in the future, plus - like the other poster said - working on that 2nd score if the jumps aren't always there for him. I appreciate him trying to think these things through. That is what works for him.

Linny

 

[BravesSkateFan]

I think they are BOTH right. You need to worry about the points obviously, becuase that is how you win and lose, but you shouldn't be so worried about them that you lose sight of what makes a good, original program, or lose your own style in the process.
I mean look at it this way. If wearing a costume with tons of fake flesh would get you a lot of points, that's all well and dandy if you're say Irina Slutskaya. But If you are Michelle Kwan you shouldn't sacrifice your own style just for points. Eventually everyone would be wearing the same costume whether it looked good on them or not, fit the music or not, or was even the right size.
Basically every skater needs to find the moves etc that work for them, and then maximize them to recieve as many points as possible.

 

[Ladskater]

It probably is strategy; uncaring? I think it is more a case of not worried about it or at least not letting on one is worried. That too is a strategy of sorts. I think if skaters dwell too much on this aspect they will lose their focus. Each skater is different in his/her approach to competing. They all have a strategy - even if it is to relax and enjoy the moment. Ben Ferreira - of Canada - used that approach at Skate Canada. He almost looked as if he was doing an exhibition or show program instead of a competition. It worked. He skated beautifully. Each skater has to find what works best for him/her.

 

[guinevere]

I think the responses of the 3 boys* make perfect sense. Weiss and Timmy had significant success under the old system. They need to rethink what has worked for them before, because their programs won't be judged in the same way. For Johnny, he started hitting his stride during the transition period between the 6.0 system and CoP, while he was just figuring out how to be mentally competitive. CoP is less of a switch from what he was doing before, plus he has different needs in terms of approaching competitions in general.

I also think there's a difference between skaters' sound bites and what they are really thinking/planning in terms of their training.


* I'm calling them all boys with affection - but until this sport stops calling all their female competitors "ladies" I can't take any argument against using the term "boys" seriously.

 

[dorispulaski]

Thanks Joe, for the interesting topic.

Ultimately, I think that matching your strengths to COP is the coach's and the choreographer's job.

That said, I took a look at the SP scores for all 3 US men at NHK. All skated quite well in the SP, without falls or serious mistakes. I didn't use the LP for comparison because Weiss skated quite badly, and Tim is under the process of tinkering with this program as he gets his skills back, so it changes every time he performs it...with the result that it is not as good as his SP.

In the SP for PCS:
SS TR Perf Chor Int
Weir 7.75 7.75 8.00 8.00 8.00
Goebel 7.00 7.25 6.75 7.00 6.75
Weiss 6.75 6.50 6.75 6.75 6.50

While it is clear that Johnny has superior skating skills components, Tim has massively improved. He is now doing better than Weiss even in Choreography and Interpretation. Tim's PCS marks are about the same as Honda's at NHK, and are definitely competitive. It is worth remembering that Honda's two third place world finishes were as much because of the old second mark. I hope this trend will continue for Tim. Tim's biggest deficit is in Performance/Execution, When you look at the components from the ISU pages, it's not surprising that this is Tim's worst item, since it contains Carriage, and everyone slags off Tim's carriage, particularly his rounded back in the sit spin.

Performance/Execution

Criteria:
Physical, emotional, and intellectual involvement
Carriage
Style and individuality/personality
Clarity of movement
Variety and contrast
Projection

Total scores: TES PCS
Weir 74.05 37.70 36.25
Goebel 72.20 37.30 34.90

Tim is less than two points behind Weir, here in the SP, 1.5 in PCS and .4 in TES. His jumps were 4t2t,3A, and 3F. Johnny did 3A, 3Lz3T and 3F.

Really, all Tim may need to do is get his 4/3 back. If Johnny leaves his SP as is, Tim can add 2.7 points that way. If Tim wants extra points, upgrading his straight line step sequence to level 2 is the way to go. He does a level 2 step sequence in his LP, so he can definitely do one. And the same for his final combo spin, currently Level1, but he does two level Two spins in the LP, so he can definitely do that as well. His lutz technique looks better than it did...he might want to put the 3lz in for the 3F. His GOE's were positive for all elements, his best being 0.6 for the 3A (and this is a huge improvement from past years, where his 3A tended to be not only unreliable, but a bit scratchy when performed.)

Johnny has to get a 4/3 in to do much better for points in the SP, or learn a 3F3t3Lp. Why? Because an axel jump is required, but the 3A cannot be repeated in the SP. As a result, the best scores are obtained with the 3A, 3Lz single jumps he is already doing. All he can do is upgrade his combo. And since he has yet to put in a single 4t, putting in a 4t3t is risky. The 4t2t comes out the same as the 3F3t he is already doing. He could also upgrade his circular step sequence. Johnny's GOE's were positive, except for his 3F which was -.2, as he lips somewhat. +1.0 for his final combination spin was his best GOE.

Weiss in is trouble with respect to Johnny on PCS a lot, and even behind Tim, and with respect to both Tim and Johnny on TES. His 3A had a GOE of -1.8, and that is no help at all. He isn't doing a quad, and his PCS scores aren't that good either. He has a long way to go.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Doris - Great analysis of the men's event and the probabilities of the three Americans in their pursuit to get better.

You've actually strategized their requirements for the Nats and Worlds. Good work!!! :agree:

Joe