I sincerely hope something was lost in the translation there because her track record on the 3A doesn't support her confident statement. 3A is not easy, not even for men. For a female skater whose 3A has to be scrutnized left, right and center everytime she does it - I think Mao's attitude needs a fix too, besides everything else. This is why getting a right coaching team is critical for her at this point. When Frank Carroll first agreed to coach Mirai Nagasu, he encountered similar attitude problem from Nagasu as well. I think Mao has been without a permanent and consistent coach up close for quite some time that she is letting her teenager exuberance getting a little out of control. Sorry, that statement really bothers me, maybe it was just a poor translation because that's not the kind of attitude that will bring about the changes she needs.
Team Mao: potential plans
- Thread starter Bennett
- Start date
I sincerely hope something was lost in the translation there because her track record on the 3A doesn't support her confident statement. 3A is not easy, not even for men. For a female skater whose 3A has to be scrutnized left, right and center everytime she does it - I think Mao's attitude needs a fix too, besides everything else. This is why getting a right coaching team is critical for her at this point. When Frank Carroll first agreed to coach Mirai Nagasu, he encountered similar attitude problem from Nagasu as well. I think Mao has been without a permanent and consistent coach up close for quite some time that she is letting her teenager exuberance getting a little out of control. Sorry, that statement really bothers me, maybe it was just a poor translation because that's not the kind of attitude that will bring about the changes she needs.
It could be just Mao trying to show more confidence. That's why I said I hope she learned what she needs this time. I thought she and Tarasova would realize the problems in 2008-2009 season. Unfortunately this Olympic season was more like an extension of the past without much improvement, IMHO. I don't know who's going to be her coach, but I think Mao needs to be humble and be ready to start from the beginning. When student is lack of basic skill, she can't go far.
Well, I was merely replying to sunny0760's post: "Each of the coaches, as an expert of specific part, should be the best coach available in Japan and the most responsible head coach always sticks to Mao coordinating everything, leading other coaches. This seems to the grand plan. Like all the national support toward a single skater. Can you find another example in history? Would be work?"Oh Ren, my friend, what have you done
My mistake was citing the example of Mao's Korean contemporary, because I thought the way her coaching situation was set up in Canada (main coach overseeing the specialists and choreographer) brought good results due to cohesive team work, and this was something I thought might be ideal for Mao, too--only, the coaching team would be situated in Japan, of course. I cited that particular example because it was the one most familiar to me--and thus I unwittingly set off other people.
I didn't think it would go so off-tangent, but I really should have known better that when it comes to these two ladies, it's like this: :banging:Anyway, moving on. I wonder who would be a good technical coach for Mao. Is it true that Nagakubo helped her out during 4CCs? I want Nagakubo-san to concentrate mostly on Akiko, though.
Some people have also cited Takeshi Honda, others Nobuo Sato. How feasible would it be for them to coach her full-time/devote a lot of time to her? I mean, I'm clueless about their locations, in the sense that, are they situated at/near Mao's rink?Also, our experts on this board, how hard (or easy) might it be for her to fix the issues with her jumps, which Kozuka's dad has pointed out?
Last edited:
- Joined
- Aug 8, 2009
Mao's waaayy humble. And she does NOT lack basic skills.
What she most seriously lacks is a mastery of some jump techniques.
And actually, it's not like her jump technique is all that bad, even for an elite figure skater. She got a silver medal at Olympics and gold medal at Worlds! That's not the track record of someone with a serious defect.
When her fans talk of Mao's jump issues, they're talking from the perspective of, what does Mao need to improve to be acknowledged as one of the best, if not THE greatest figure skater to have ever lived.
I think she can master it if she continues to work for another 2-3 years. "Just do It"
I'm no expert, but I'll give my two cents. Speed is extremely difficult to improve on. You either have it or don't. I don't have an elaborate explanation, but I know this for sure (I've heard it from experts here and there). Mao's not slow, mind you, but she is slow in comparison to Miki, Yu-na or Caro K, for example, and given that speed is a key factor in determining GOE, she does need to speed up. Her problem in getting GOE is that she kind of comes to a standstill right before the jump (her 3A and 3T in particular). She kind of stops. Leeps high into the air and revolves very, very quickly, thus missing out on the speed and ice coverage GOE checkpoints. I don't know why this is in Mao's case, but I've heard it has to do with the fear of falling for other skaters. If that's the case, I'm pretty sure a determined Mao could fix that. Some skaters are too fast (Caro K) and mess up with jumps because of timing or OR. Some skaters are too slow and thus use weird technique or UR. Mao needs to lean towards the fast, but of course this requires near perfect technique (easier to mess up with speed) and greater control.
Some things I've noticed about her jumping: (1) When she jumps the 3A, she turns backward first, goes sideways, then turns forward, while she jumps straight into the 2A. There's nothing wrong with the former, but I'm pretty sure that's one thing that slows her down. I know the 3A is a very daunting move exactly because one must jump forwards, but if she wants her 3A to be more GOE-friendly, that's a way. It will help her translate the torque from the preparation to the jump. (2) Before she does the 3F, she bends her knee, does something funny with her other leg, which probably doesn't help her speed up. I haven't seen her do that until recently (maybe from 2008-2009), so I'm guessing she can fix it. It's a minor technicality. (3) Photos of her taken show her face distorted to the side. That seems to suggest that her torque is centered there, when it should start at the foot, spread to the ankles and the entire body, to kind of center at the shoulders. Her air position may affect her jumping technique, definitely. Perhaps her coaches should look into that. (4) Her 3Lo is gorgeous! I actually like it more than her 3A.
And now to her flutz. Her 3lz was getting there by Worlds. I don't know why Mao took it out. Mao should've battled it out like she did with her 3A (which consistency and quality-wise was awful earlier on this season, but emerged gorgeous in the end). Miki and Joannie battled with their flutz during their competitive seasons (it usually takes a whole year) and got it right in the end (but it was costly). Fixing a flutz is extremely difficult, as it's a habit often from childhood, engrained by muscle memory. By the time one gets close to fixing the lutz, one often messes up on the flip, so on and so forth. It's a great risk, but one Mao should probably take if she aims for Sochi '14. If she starts now, she could get it fixed by Tokyo Worlds.
As for the 3-3. Mao said she will work on it. She took it out probably because she was hit with UR here and there. She was working with the 3F-3Lo in 08-09. Next season, she should start with a 3F-3T, which is less prone to UR calls. A 3Lo combo is very risky and very, very prone to UR, like everyone knows here. She should work on the 3F-3T, get it ratified several times and boost her confidence before tacking on a 3Lo. I wonder why she URed her combination so often in 08-09. Is it because of the strict calls or because her technique changed? I'm not sure. I'm awful at UR calls.
A great thing though is that Mao is getting much, much better in terms of consistency (good showings at Nationals, 4CC, OG and WC in a row) and in dealing with her nerves. I was worried she would implode right after Yu-na's LP at the OG because she has a history of meltdowns, but she didn't! It was great. What's also great is that she has learned from a disappointing season (for her) and will return to light music and 3-3s (in addition to her 3A).
Wow I wrote so much
Last edited:
Mao's basic skating skills are great. Who hasn't commented on how she floats on the ice? I think people just think her basic skating skills have deteriorated because her current music fails to highlight her strengths. One thing I find weird is that Mao doesn't seem to have strong knees, in spite of her having soft knees (the two usually go together). I have seen her try an ina bauer during an ice show performance and it was, well, not up to her usual level. She couldn't keep control of her blades. I've never seen her try a layback, although she has great flexibility. If there is a flaw to her skating skills, I guess it would then have to do with blade control, but really that's not much. Her skating skills are above many skaters'. But boy, I sound mean today. I hope no one will try to kill me because I mean all this as constructive criticism.
- Joined
- Aug 8, 2009
definitely!:thumbsup:
dlgpffps, I won't quote your whole post, because you did write a lot. But thanks so much for your 2 cents, and for explaining things so thoroughly. So Mao's flutz has been there from when she was young? Wow... I hope her would-be tech coach will be able to help her fix it.
But thanks so much for your 2 cents, and for explaining things so thoroughly. So Mao's flutz has been there from when she was young? Wow... I hope her would-be tech coach will be able to help her fix it.dlgpffps, I won't quote your whole post, because you did write a lot.
You're welcome. I've noticed that Yamada's students tend to flutz. Could it be her teaching method? I'm not sure. You know, I changed my ten cents to two cents immediately after having read your post. My mind was preoccupied with jump technique that I wasn't really thinking while writing
You're welcome. I've noticed that Yamada's students tend to flutz. Could it be her teaching method? I'm not sure. You know, I changed my ten cents to two cents immediately after having read your post. My mind was preoccupied with jump technique that I wasn't really thinking while writing
Well, I don't know enough about Yamada to make an educated comment about the flutz. Do you think we'll learn Mao's coaching situation soon?Edited to add: You know, I didn't really notice that you put ten cents the first time around. I automatically put 2 cents in my reply... It all works out, though, because your post was so thorough.
Last edited:
Edited to add: You know, I didn't really notice that you put ten cents the first time around. I automatically put 2 cents in my reply... It all works out, though, because your post was so thorough.
She doesn't teach the best ways to jump, but she is a good coach. I guess Midori was an exception because she was just naturally talented.
Midori did not flutz. Ms. Yamada is not Mao's first coach, either. Mao's first coach Ms. Yuko Monna was Miki's one of earlier coaches. But Miki lipped before whereas Mao flutze(s/d).
I also feel that Ms. Yamada's students tend to have had some jump issues. But these issues seem to vary in kind by skater.
Mao doesn't lack basic skating skills. She couldn't have gone this far without having at least above average ones. I think what happened is that trying to fix that one problem from her childhood (flutz) probably lead to several new issues. I think it affected her flip (which seemed better two seasons ago) and her speed/flow in general. As others have pointed out, fixing a jump is extremely difficult and it can lead a skater become less confident at their jumps, and thus more prone to URs. I just don't think it's a coincidence that most of Mao's struggles started in 2008-2009 at the same time that she was fixing her flutz. This is not saying that Mao shouldn't fix her flutz, but she should take it step by step this time.
Last edited:
Mao's jumps never screemed the ahhhhhhhhhh! kind of power and wowness. They have always been more heavinly landed, featherly like soft as jelly. Speed may have to do with it, but I dunno if it'll be productive to change that quality in her jumps. It'd be an entirely different style for her and her whole skating might be affected. She has to focus in bringing back the 3-3 and putting transitions in/out of her elements. She' talented enough to do that
jian10 said:
Where do you see that Mao is not humble???? She is willing to train and work to fix her problem. Not sure what you mean by the beginning? About basic skating skills, Mao has plenty. About can't go far. At this stage of her career, i.e. post olys silver, she is a 2X world gold, one time world silver and one time olys silver medalist. She is in the Guiness book of world records. Not the best in record but comparable to MK's post olys record.
does lack of layback mean lackof blade control? Mao does a sideway spin which substitutes for a layback. I think OGM Oksana Baiul does not do layback and substituted with sideway spin, and Oksana has great flexibility too. BTW, most ppl say sideway spin is much more difficult than layback. Of course Mirai has one of the best sideway spins.
About Mao's basic skating skills: she has good speed and excellent ice coverage.
Her jumps are more similar to Tara and Kristi's, they alll have extremely fast rotations in the air. Unlike Tara and Kristi, Mao gets good height with her jumps. I too wonder how she can go into a 3A with a practical standstill on the ice.
The flutz is hard to fix. Arutunian was going to fix it and they parted. I believe Frank fixed Michelle's flutz, but MK never gets deep outside edge, just a shallow outside edge.
Her 3/3: I think she naturally prefers the 3loop, but was downgraded. She landed 3f/3t with +GOE in the past, she should continue that. If she manages 3f/3t and add another 2t, or 2l to to that combo, she may earn some extra points.
robinhood said:
I screamed WOW a few times for her 3ZA. I agree, the power factor is not the essential feature of her jumps. She has great spring, timing etc to vault her in the air, and fast rotations to complete the rotations. There is always an ethereal quality to her skating, including her jumps. Unfortunately under the current systems these are not things that are rewarded much. I agree on putting transitions in/out elements, tht is what gather points. I thnk if she remains healthy she will do very well in the next 4 yrs. But even if she retires today, she has achieved quite a lot.
BTW does Dice have a tech coach? I like Mao to work with Dice's tech coach
Last edited:
- Joined
- Aug 10, 2008
Sometimes I wonder if Mao fans are, above all, fans of The long monologue about Mao the Untouchable.
You mean Daisuke Takahashi? His coach has been Ms. Utako Nagamitsu and their relationship seems to have been more than 10 years.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utako_Nagamitsu
This lady is based in Osaka and a bit far from Nagoya (much closer than Tokyo though). Besides, the lady teaches at Kansai Univ where Dai is based and I wonder if Kansai Univ wants to share her with Mao's Univ. It could be a win-win situation though if they can agree on it.
I hear that he receives advice from Takeshi Honda, too.
I heard that Mao's sister Mai was or has been taught by Takeshi. So Takeshi may be available around that area.
BTW, is Mai still skating?
Thanks for info. I think Takeshi is one of the most artistic skaters. I watched some of his comps live.
Dunno if Mai is still skating, is she still modelling? I think she has been overshadowed by younger sis. Mai is probably the prettiest skater evah! Of course tht has nothing to do with skating
No one here including Mao's fans are saying Mao is untouchable. Actually the lengthiest post in this thread is a critique of Mao's skating. Maybe criticism of Mao's skating is easier to your eyes, and time flies by when you are reading about the shortcomings of Mao's skating??
G Plum, Evidently some anti Mao fans are not just whining about length of off season. :sheesh:
Last edited:
- Joined
- Oct 22, 2005
Actually, the sideways leaning spin is MUCH easier than a true layback. What people tell you this is difficult? A true layback requires the skater to push the hips forward over the spinning foot. The sideways spin requires much less effort.
