The Arms Above the Shoulders

[burntBREAD]

I said "Can you see here arm movements is not for COP but for performance?"

I mean arm movements is for performance whether 6.0 or COP.

Do I need more explanation?

I'm not sure what you're saying here, maybe you do need to explain more... COP and 6.0 are competitive systems, so you can't really compare exhibitions to those... all exhibitions are about performance.

 

[ever]

I'm not sure what you're saying here, maybe you do need to explain more... COP and 6.0 are competitive systems, so you can't really compare exhibitions to those... all exhibitions are about performance.

I thought I don't need to show yuna's competitive performance Because she use arm movements also as you know.

[HD] Yu-Na Kim Long Program 2010 Vancouver Olympic games (fancam)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oU3EDmbs8KA

Yuna use her arms even more in exhibitions when she don't need points for COP
I thought that means It is not for COP but for performance.

I think you can understand performance by choreography.
(actually I'm not good at English as you know. )

 

[Olympia]

You're doing fine, Ever. I also assumed that the thread was for any skating, not specifically a competition piece--just examples of what skating, and some skaters, are capable of. Since I'm greedy to see any beautiful skating, I thank you for linking to this video.

 

[prettykeys]

I'm not so sure if I got what Joesitz meant by thrust their arms above their shoulders, but if it means skaters throw both of their arms(or just one arm at times) up in the air meaninglessly when they glide, I do find it very distracting. I hate it even more when they call it 'choreography'.

I think this issue represents just one subset of the greater problem of CoP's reductionist philosophy of scoring figure skating. Ever since BoP ruined CoP for me ( ) now I cannot help but notice excessive elements/redundancies in a program that don't have anything to do with the unity of a performance or music, and more to do with (the attempt at) grabbing points. I am not saying that arm movements are necessarily done for the explicit purpose of scoring points...but I think the idea of an artistically cohesive program has been at least a little messed with. Maybe there is the impression that more arm movements = more complex choreography/greater performance value, but we all know how that isn't always the case. I find myself yearning for simpler programs, at times.

As others and I have mentioned elsewhere, I am very dismayed by Jeremy Abbott's SP this season. I don't know if it's "authentic", but I find his arm movements terribly distracting and a little cringe-worthy, and it's a shame because I know he is a wonderful skater who could do so much better. I often found Evan Lysacek's arms distracting, too.

Of the current ladies, YuNa is noteworthy in particular for having choreographically appropriate, attractive arm movements (as her fan, I may be biased but I feel comfortable saying this on objective terms, as well. It's one of the reasons I am her fan. ) Sometimes her arms don't have a completely continuous line of expression down the rest of her body, but on the whole I find her arms to truly add to her performances. I can't think of any other ladies to be honest. Laura Lepisto has a lot of arm movements, and a beautiful posture--but her arm movements don't seem to be doing anything meaningful to me.

So, arm movements: They can be good, but if they're not done for a good reason, I'd rather they be omitted. A program doesn't need lots of arms above the shoulders to have good choreography/interpretation, and they can often detract from the performance if done wrong.

Edit: I forgot to add, someone old-school who had lovely arm movements, to me, is Lu Chen.

 

[Nadine]

Anyone for the style of arms in figure skating?

Great question!

To me the person whom has the best arms I've ever seen in skating......ever (man or woman)......has to be without a doubt Oksana Baiul. In fact I honestly believe half her magic came from just those arms alone. They are worth gold, literally, she really should have them insured.

Here is what Peter Carruthers had to say about them at the 2000 Goodwill Games: "And those incredible arms that she has on the ice...AMAZING to watch...so graceful.

I recall another famous commentator (perhaps the same one) said that Oksana's arms are like liquid gold. That comment has never left my mind because when I think of her that's the first thought that comes to mind (besides Swan that is).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFSvMSYdH9M

 

[dorispulaski]

The place I love the arms to be doing something is in a spin or rotational lift. There's a rotational lift one of the dance teams are doing (I think it's C&Z in the SD, but I have seen so many SDs they are running together) where the woman is laid out flat face up at about waist level and the man has one arm outstretched. As they spin, it looks as if she is completely unsupported by his arms, floating in space. Actually the other arm is supporting her. Just loved it.

Even the curse can be removed from one of those ugly pretzel spins if there is an arm aloft, waving in time to the music.

Not so much, the Rippon lutzl-why the 2 armed version is a trick to me and the Boitano lutz is a choreographic feature I don't know. My bad taste, I suppose.

 

[zoozle]

Yukina Ota always had lovely arms and lines, too. she was not a strong jumper/competitor like Shizuka, Miki, and Mao, but she was my favorite by far.
so elegant, and most importantly she feels music deeply.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lcUcvHpPQM&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-v8SLL6InZw

 

[champs]

I too have noticed an excessive amount of arm above shoulder movements not only in dance but in ladies singles... I swear if I see one move arm over the face, arms wrapped around themselves etc I'm gonnna' scream....is this artistic? The more I watch, the more obvious it is. Joannie Rochette seemed to initiate the style and it worked well, for her..now-especially the Qubec ladies- Lacoste, Phaneuf, etc.. I don't know if it's because I'm more a singles fan or what that I notiice it. Is that what is rewarded by the judges..they all look the same. I thought Samson a refreshing change at Cup of Russia but she was not rewarded. I thought her PCS marks were low..I'm interested to see if anyone else has noticed this.

I have always loved Lacoste for how she moves her forearms, her wrists and hands in particular. Amelie seems to pay a lot of attention to how she moves her wrists and I love it so much that every time I watch her skate on TV I mostly watch her wrists.
I don't find in Rochette's arm movements the same elegance that I find in Lacoste's, but that's just my personal opinion/taste. I've never found Phaneuf having the same appeal in her arm movements either.

Nothing to do with arm movements but I agree with you on Samson at CoR this weekend, well at least in the short program. The PCS she received was much lower than I had expected/hoped when she finished skating, her PE CH IN could be higher.

I like Lacoste and Samson for another reason and that's because they are both loop jumpers.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I am sure from what I am reading that I was not clear. The two arm Tano is not in question nor is the beautiful arms of the Ladies.

It's about constantly using Arms Up throughout the program: like to the swell in the music which shows no imagination; or completing elements (usually a jump), and in the footwork sequence unable to use arms differently. I assume it is to show the judges good timing in their programs. well.... I dunno about that.

Teachers of dance off the ice, insist on port du bras from day one, and it should be varied depending on the flow of the program.

However citing certain skaters who do vary their arms to the music is a good topic as well. I would not put Gatchinsky in that category.

 

[janetfan]

Sorry if this is not quite what you meant - but here is skating that IMO uses the arms very well - as part of the body line at times but also in a lyical fashion. All interpretative use is not based only on the arms being over the head.

This skater's use of arms to me feels much more subtle, but also more effective than the incessant arm-flapping we see in CoP. It does not depend on overly dramatic movements - and actually appears to enhance the nuances in the music.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zN_Y-gza-N8&feature=related

Wilson can use arms effectively - but too often his use of arms are so predictable as to appear monatanous at times - looking to be little more than choreographic gimmicks - an effort to manufacture artistry and interpretation where there really is not much.

Unfortunatley it seems use of the arms - any use of the arms - is a necessity for artistry requirements with today's judges. It is the problem with a points based system as quantity becomes more important than quality.

I should go back and check - but Kozuka's new LP has as much arm-flapping as we ever saw from Evan. Because his arms are so short it doesn't feel as distracting - but that doesn't make it feel any more artistic to me.

 

[Mathman]

It's about constantly using Arms Up throughout the program: ...completing elements (usually a jump), and in the footwork sequence...

I always assumed that the arms up and out were for balance. Like how a tightrope walker uses his arms to keep his center of gravity over his feet.

 

[Layfan]

I am sure from what I am reading that I was not clear. The two arm Tano is not in question nor is the beautiful arms of the Ladies.

It's about constantly using Arms Up throughout the program: like to the swell in the music which shows no imagination; or completing elements (usually a jump), and in the footwork sequence unable to use arms differently. I assume it is to show the judges good timing in their programs. well.... I dunno about that.

Teachers of dance off the ice, insist on port du bras from day one, and it should be varied depending on the flow of the program.

However citing certain skaters who do vary their arms to the music is a good topic as well. I would not put Gatchinsky in that category.

Joe, Can you cite a specific example? I know you said the Russian men but I'm not quite sure you you mean. I think I do but I'd be interested in seeing a specific program where the arms up bother you. Intriguing topic.

 

[Bluebonnet]

It seems to me, that the Russian male skaters will thrust their arms above their shoulders throughout their routines except when they stop to pose. It gets to me sometimes that it is a distraction from their skating feet which I am more interested in for scoring purposes than the "Hands-UP or I'll Shoot" style of Arms in Figure Skating.

Anyone for the style of arms in figure skating?

Joe, first I have to say that thanks for starting so many topics and keeping us thinking. No wonder when you were absent for a while, many of us, and me too, were thinking about you.

I don't think I can separate good use of arms and arms above the shoulders. I'm not necessarily for the style of arms in figure skating. But good use of arms are essential and critical, besides legs of course, for the entire body expression to reach out and get through. I didn't find Russian skaters specifically having this character. Maybe I watched much less skating than you have, and this is true. I think Lysacek has arms above the shoulders a lot of times, and it bothered me to death. Tim Geobel's arms bothered me too.

I actually love beautiful, meaningful, expressive arms very much. Example of these beautifully used arms are actually from artistic skaters, such as: Alexei Yagudin (surprise), Jeremy Abbott, and Jeffery Buttle. Even Jeremy's this year's SP, I took a little time to get used to it but now take it as his achievement. I'm sure that some of you have already seen the original Tango piece of his SP danced on the floor. Here is the little quick peek of it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ax4yLTkaK4g&feature=related

I think Jeremy's style is close to it. Is it better to skate like Jeremy's SP on ice? Probably not. It is a lot hardworking and much less rewarding to skate like this. Focusing on the legs are the best because the judges are focusing on the legs and the edges. But how can anyone have a beautiful skating without arms?

 

[blue dog]

Excessive arm movements (distractoarms) have been around in skating for a long time:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSWtcD6fKlc

 

[Layfan]

Excessive arm movements (distractoarms) have been around in skating for a long time:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSWtcD6fKlc

Oh man, you are making me feel old by linking a 1997 performance by Irina Slutskaya and saying something has been around "for a long time."

ETA: That is one miserably choreographed program.

 

[Olympia]

I'm at work and can't take the time to hunt, but I'm thinking of checking Sandhu's programs. (The ones where he stays on his feet.) He has such deep training in ballet and other dance, and I can't remember offhand the details of his skates, but I'll bet he uses his arms the way they should be used.

I remember enjoying Browning in this regard (as in every other regard). He has an unfussy simplicity, and with his dance training, he combines grace with "guy-ness" in an especially convincing and appealing way.

Of course John Curry and Robin Cousins use arms splendidly. In fact, the first discussion of arms on male skaters that I remember is Dick Button comparing Cousins to Jan Hoffman, who as Button said used windmill arms.

To me, a very good skater uses arms for balance and at the same time using them as though not needing them for balance. Does that make sense? In other words, there's not an urgency or a precariousness about arm use.

 

[janetfan]

I always assumed that the arms up and out were for balance. Like how a tightrope walker uses his arms to keep his center of gravity over his feet.

Didn't Janet comment that skaters who learned figures had to learn to skate without using their arms - as well as learning how to balance themselves as they shifted from one position to another? It was about the use of blades and shifting weight while changing positions.

Didn't she say skating skills have nothing to do with the arms - and that learning to skate without arms was an important skill to learn - and was particularly helpful in preventing muscle strains and injuries?

What is the point of this thread? Choreographic excellence and superior IN - or did I miss the point :think:

It seems to me in this era we see excessive use of arms along with posing to hide the fact that many skaters are lacking good edges and good posture/positions.

Watch Kristi's 1992 Olympic /Natls LP - the slow section - which she claims was the hardest part of the program to skate well.

She does use her arms as part of the choreo - but I think it was the blade control that made this portion of the program difficult and showing such nice positions and control while skating slowly. A lost art, no?

Plushenko uses his arms for choreographic expression loosely based on the music but I think more for personal expression.
Evan uses his arms because as long as you look busy the CoP rewards you with points.

Interpretation and musical nuance in the CoP era is secondary to showing the judges that you are "really doing alot." That you are really "performing and interpreting

Chan is the busiest skater and yet more than one poster notes he skates through the music rather than with the music. Kanako has been cited for this as well - but she just turned 16 and is still learning.

Chen-Lu, with Sandra's choreo uses her arms to accentuate the nuances in the music and to express feeling, to even tell a story. It was something totally different than most of what we see today.

 

[mot]

janetfan

Use of upper body (including arms and head) movements is one of the features for levels for step sequences.

Use of upper body movements means the visible use for a combined total of at least 2/3 of the pattern of the step sequence any movements of the arms, head and torso that have an effect on the balance of the main body core. (ISU Communications #1611)

I understand use of upper body movements makes edge control and remaining on the correct part of blade more difficult, and thus tests a skater's skill as well as physical capability to balance.

When done successfully, this particular level feature can be married with artistry and musical interpretation. If not, it merely remains something a skater does to get levels.

 

[Mathman]

Use of upper body movements means the visible use for a combined total of at least 2/3 of the pattern of the step sequence any movements of the arms, head and torso that have an effect on the balance of the main body core. (ISU Communications #1611)

As I recall, when this language first came out the response was that skaters started bobbing up and down from the waist like they were bobbing for apples. I guess the idea was that they wanted to make sure the judges didn't miss the fact that they were working the upper body.

 

[Mathman]

Didn't Janet comment that skaters who learned figures had to learn to skate without using their arms - as well as learning how to balance themselves as they shifted from one position to another? It was about the use of blades and shifting weight while changing positions.

Didn't she say skating skills have nothing to do with the arms - and that learning to skate without arms was an important skill to learn - and was particularly helpful in preventing muscle strains and injuries?

That is very interesting. The natural instinct when you feel yourself going off balance is to stick your arms out to the side. I guess that's why it looks so cool when men skaters especially do that little stroll with their hands clasped behind their backs.

Here are some pictures of Brian Boitano skating.

Arms out for balance:

http://blogs.sfweekly.com/foodie/p1_boitano_1208.jpg

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/olympi...jpg/site1/20070725/001aa018ff9c081162ed29.jpg

http://www.thefoodsection.com/.a/6a00d8341c4ec753ef01156f400d3c970c-300wi

http://www.dolshouse.com/queensmen/image/Boitano3.jpg

http://cdn-i.dmdentertainment.com/cracked/jp/halftime/HAMMIL.jpg

Arms in:

http://blog.skimkim.com/wp-content/upload/boitano.jpg

http://www.icesk8.com/clipart/932918.jpg

Arms up:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/511GQ021NQL.jpg