The Best REAL Choreography

[Jaana]

I would say that there were several great choreographies in this competition, meaning that the choreography was really enjoyable including the skater´s interpretation of the music. The latter is necessary for me to be able to enjoy a skating programme fully. These choreographies I really liked:

Hughes
Takahashi
Lysacek
Zhang

About Chan´s freeskate I have the opinion that it was excellent choreography to a music that for this skater did not really fit. It is music that really demands a lot from a skater to make it enjoyable, now I got to see an athletic performance with the music playing in the background (it could have been any music). I have the suspicion that Chan might not be really good in music interpretation, generally speaking. Of course it may get better as he matures.

 

[emma]

I'm not sure why interpretation comes into the topic. Interpretation relates to the skater, and I was speaking of choreographers. There is no doubt that Patrick skated the most entertaining routine, and deserved his placement. But the choreography, for me, was standard and that is not negating Patrick's performance. No one actually says Patrick had the best correography.

Carriere, who did not skate his best, but his choreographers did give him an exceptional routine. His less than stellar skate was his problem. Both he and Hughes have something if they work on it, imo. Not saying they will, just they have one very important factor under their belts.

As for Mira, it was the best I ever saw her and it didn't matter her choreography.

Joe

No, no I understand that YOU were talking about choreography, but since interpretation came up in the thread, I thought I'd talk about a range of things (From interpretation, to choreography, to skills and execution) to differentiate among skaters a little more...in terms of choreography I think you and I seem to be agreeing, although I haven't seen Carrier's program so I can't talk about that one. Anyway, sorry if you thought I was taking this in the wrong direction.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

No, no I understand that YOU were talking about choreography, but since interpretation came up in the thread, I thought I'd talk about a range of things (From interpretation, to choreography, to skills and execution) to differentiate among skaters a little more...in terms of choreography I think you and I seem to be agreeing, although I haven't seen Carrier's program so I can't talk about that one. Anyway, sorry if you thought I was taking this in the wrong direction.

Thank you so much for understanding.

I had kind of figured that out that the way posters refuse to talk about the choreographer of Chan's program but relish in describing their feelings about his performance.

I wish now, that I had put in a separate thread about "How Wonderful Chan Skated", and I would then have 3 or 4 replies to my thread on Choreography. Maybe as a Summer topic?

Joe

 

[Tinymavy15]

will somebody please explain what they saw in Emily's chreography? I saw her SP ion youtube, and as I thought it worked. Finally the music really suited her, and the chreography while minimal, worked too. her LP on the other hand leaves A lot to be desired.

 

[discoduck]

Takahashi's SP. What is not to love about hip hop dancing and spanking swans?

 

[sillylionlove]

Disco!!!!! Hello!!

Anyway, Takahashi is the only one that could do a hip hop version of Swan Lake. It was perfect for him. I watched the broadcast of his short program and seeing it live and on television were two totally different things!! It was so much better in person!

 

[Mathman]

I think the problem is that it is hard for the average fan to distinguish the contribution of the choreographer as something separate from what the skater does with it. I know I can't do this.

Plus, under the CoP the choreographers are operating under a lot of restrictions. You have to put a big 3/2/2 combo in the second half just because of the extra ten per cent bonus, whether it makes artistic or musical sense to do this or not.

A large part of the choreographers' duties seem to be things like, placing the spins at different parts of the ice, instead of all in the same spot, and tucking the Lutz into the corner farthest from the judges so they won't be able to see the takeoff edge clearly.

It seems to me that choreography these days is in danger of becoming mere formula, and only occasionally brings an original interpretation of the character of the music. (When that happens, though, it really stands out.)

 

[debdelilah]

As for Takahashi's "interpretation" in the LP, I could figure out that he was Romeo because he had a big red heart and a dagger painted on the front of his shirt.

.

Shouldn't he be Juliet, then? Romeo dies by poison, and Juliet's the one who stabs herself.

 

[Mathman]

^ :chorus::chorus::chorus:

 

[Tonichelle]

I think the problem is that it is hard for the average fan to distinguish the contribution of the choreographer as something separate from what the skater does with it. I know I can't do this.

Plus, under the CoP the choreographers are operating under a lot of restrictions. You have to put a big 3/2/2 combo in the second half just because of the extra ten per cent bonus, whether it makes artistic or musical sense to do this or not.

A large part of the choreographers' duties seem to be things like, placing the spins at different parts of the ice, instead of all in the same spot, and tucking the Lutz into the corner farthest from the judges so they won't be able to see the takeoff edge clearly.

It seems to me that choreography these days is in danger of becoming mere formula, and only occasionally brings an original interpretation of the character of the music. (When that happens, though, it really stands out.)

I think some choreographers use it as a COPOUT (or is it CoP-out?)

instead of complaining that the new system does not fit the 10 pieces of music skaters use year in year out, maybe now they should branch out and use something different...

yes, it's about points, but I don't think it's as restrictive as people make it out to be.

 

[JonnyCoop]

I think some choreographers use it as a COPOUT (or is it CoP-out?)

instead of complaining that the new system does not fit the 10 pieces of music skaters use year in year out, maybe now they should branch out and use something different...

yes, it's about points, but I don't think it's as restrictive as people make it out to be.

ITA. I get so tired of hearing fans and commentators talk about how ever since CoP, "all the programs look alike". They don't all look alike any more than they ever have; a skater and/or choreographer who has new ideas and is interesting to watch will be that way regardless of the system in place. I notice that Lambiel and Sandhu (when he's on) [just to use 2 examples off the top of my head] can always manage to be interesting, it's not like CoP makes it impossible, it just depends on the skater. The one thing I have noticed about CoP, however, is the tendency among most skaters in the opening jumping pass to just basically ignore any music and "choreographic embellishment" in favor of concentrating on getting those jumps out of the way. Evan's LP was a perfect example of this, but he's far from the only offender. THAT is the aspect of CoP that gets on MY nerves.

Now, as far comments pertaining to the original concept of this thread: I'd have to go with Chan, too. He was fantastic. As to Carriere -- I didn't see his SP, but I found his LP to be rather a meandering mess. IMHO, you gotta be really careful with the type of jazzy music that he used, and the overall effect, for me, was that he was just kind of skating off the top of his head and doing this maneuver and that maneuver, but I found no actual connection with the music so the overall effect seemed to me rather disjointed and slapdash. I think with different music, it would have worked better; he did have some interesting stuff going on, but it just seemed too random. As to Takahashi -- I actually did like his short, and I have to say it's actually the first program I've seen him skate that I actually found all that interesting. As to the long, for me, it was the usual Daisuke -- fabulous technical stuff, but not much in the artistry/choreography department, unless you consider flailing and flouncing to be choreography, which, unfortunately, a lot of the men do these days.... :sheesh:

 

[Mathman]

Now, as far comments pertaining to the original concept of this thread: I'd have to go with Chan, too. He was fantastic.

I am very much interested in this topic. What exactly caught your eye about Chan's choreography[/], as contrasted with his Interpretation and Performance.

I agree that he had great Interpretation and Performance/Execution. I am still struggling to see anything special in the choreography of his program (or in anyone's, for that matter).

 

[debdelilah]

As to the long, for me, it was the usual Daisuke -- fabulous technical stuff, but not much in the artistry/choreography department, unless you consider flailing and flouncing to be choreography, which, unfortunately, a lot of the men do these days.... :sheesh:

I've got to disagree. I don't think he's playing a particular character--either Romeo or Juliet--but he's listening to the music, and his movement goes with it, and it's--kinetically charged and emotionally charged. So I think that is choreography--how the movement goes with the music--and that he is selling it--because he's right on the beat and puts energy behind it.

 

[Mathman]

--but he's listening to the music, and his movement goes with it, and it's--kinetically charged and emotionally charged. So I think that is choreography--how the movement goes with the music--and that he is selling it--because he's right on the beat and puts energy behind it...

When the skater listens to the music, when his movement is kinetically and emotionally charged, when the skater "sells it" by being right on the beat and putting energy behind it -- is that "choreography" or is it "interpretation/presentation/execution"?

When a skater pays a famous choreographer for a program, are these the things that the choreographer provides?

 

[debdelilah]

When the skater listens to the music, when his movement is kinetically and emotionally charged, when the skater "sells it" by being right on the beat and putting energy behind it -- is that "choreography" or is it "interpretation/presentation/execution"?

When a skater pays a famous choreographer for a program, are these the things that the choreographer provides?

No choreographer can assure that the skater will perform the choreography with the music, or perform it in a way that reaches the audience, but they can still give directions of what, in general, to do when. If you paired a world famous director with a beginning actor, the resulting performance would probably be much better than a pairing beginning director with a beginning actor; likewise with a choreographer.

But, in theatre, the actors eventually take ownership of the direction--they aren't like puppets, or if they are, they haven't become good at acting. But a beginning actor, or skater, might take good direction, memorize it, and perform it step by step without taking ownership. And then someone might watch and be able to see what they were told to do, without them actually being able to movingly perform it.

There's the reverse issue too--so-so directors paired with good actors, or so-so choreographers paired with skaters who make them look good. I say "so-so" instead of bad, because I can't imagine an elite skater would actually pay a truly bad choreographer.

 

[JonnyCoop]

I am very much interested in this topic. What exactly caught your eye about Chan's choreography[/], as contrasted with his Interpretation and Performance.

I agree that he had great Interpretation and Performance/Execution. I am still struggling to see anything special in the choreography of his program (or in anyone's, for that matter).

Well, excellent execution can cover up less-than-spectacular choreography, and I will concede that that might be the case here. Chan did a fabulous job with what he had to work with. Often, when skaters have special qualities, as Chan obviously does, it's easy to overlook the specific mechanics of the choreography. (On another level, Midori Ito was a great example of this -- she was so charming and so much fun to watch and so awe-inspiring with her technical ability that you really had to pay attention to realize that not much was going on, choreography-wise. I'm certainly not comparing Chan with Ito, but on a lesser level I think the same basic principle applies.)

I would contrast the Chan approach, out of lack of better term at the moment, with the Julia Sebestyen approach. Julia is, for me, consistently frustrating to watch year after year because when you look at her programs, her CHOREOGRAPHY is excellent, but she diminishes the overall effect by lack of expression. None of her programs seem to really POP, and she's had a few that easily could have if she'd cranked the Expression up, or even turned it on at all. Totmiannina & Maranin had the same problem.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Choreography is a mix of elements in a program showing spacial positioning of variety and how it all flows together with contrasting connexions, That means No front loading of jumps.

Not easy when so much is at stake with points according to the gospel of CoP.

Joe