Sasha is not actually spinning in that photo (obviously), so we actually have no idea if Sasha can do a Beilmann spin. It may be quite easy for most skaters to get into that position while standing still, but not be able to do it in a spin. I would assume she could because of her flexibility, but with her back injuries, I am not sure she would even want to. Something tells me, however, that we will see some sort of Beilmann attempt from her this fall.
The Bielmann spin: Sasha vs. Irina
- Thread starter yoy_mama
- Start date
Compare Denise's Biellmann position
http://www.harlick.com/img/gal/ice/deniseb.jpg
with Irina's
http://www.irina-slutskaya.com/NHK02-Irina-EX58.JPG
Denise's foot is directly over her head and she can look up at it.
Irina's foot is well behind her head--she can't see it.
Denise's toe (on the raised leg) is gracefully pointed.
Irina's toe is not pointed.
Denise's raised leg is gently arced and the knee is only slightly flexed.
Irina's raised leg is bent at a 45 degree angle.
Denise's body is almost upright.
Irina's body is parallel to the ice.
http://www.harlick.com/img/gal/ice/deniseb.jpg
with Irina's
http://www.irina-slutskaya.com/NHK02-Irina-EX58.JPG
Denise's foot is directly over her head and she can look up at it.
Irina's foot is well behind her head--she can't see it.
Denise's toe (on the raised leg) is gracefully pointed.
Irina's toe is not pointed.
Denise's raised leg is gently arced and the knee is only slightly flexed.
Irina's raised leg is bent at a 45 degree angle.
Denise's body is almost upright.
Irina's body is parallel to the ice.
- Joined
- Mar 28, 2005
When I am reminded of Denise Bielmann it is almost sad to read the story of her career and her early retirement from amateur skating. She won the free skate at the Olympics at only 17, but finished 4th overall because of the compulsory figures. She won Worlds at 18 with the revolutionary Bielmann spin, but also the first ever triple lutz for a woman. She looked poised to dominate the world of womens skating for the next decade perhaps, yet could not cope with the increasing pressure from the Swiss Media and Swiss skating officials to succeed. So she packed it in at a young age. Of course Katarina Witt went on to be the next dominant female skater, yet Bielmann who was older than Witt was kicking her around for years in the pro ranks, perhaps that is not a great indicator, Witt was losing to others as a pro she used to regularly beat as an amateur(Kadavy for example), but her extraordinary and varied set of skills would seem to make it nearly impossable for somebody like Witt to overtake her mostly doing only a triple toe and triple salchow, with the odd triple loop.
- Joined
- Dec 18, 2003
I'm shocked...
.....that this discussion is going on. !!??!!??
When has Sasha ever presented a Biellmann anything? While Sasha is known for her flexibility, the Biellmann position requires specific flexibility in the lower back. General flexibility does NOT equal flexibility everywhere.
As an example, MK has done wonderful Charlotte's on many occassions. Perfect split (well, IMO anyway) and "nose to the toes." That requires flexibility in certain body parts, but it doesn't mean "flexibility everywhere." The flexibility required for that move does NOT mean that MK has flexibility everywhere else.
We could go through any number of skaters and talk about the areas where they DO have flexibility, and demonstrate that on ice with certain moves. That doesn't mean those skaters have flexibility in every joint and every muscle of their bodies.
Somehow Sasha's overall flexibility has translated, IMO, into an assumption that she is Gumby, and every single joint and muscle in her entire body are capable of pretzel moves in any and every direction. I suspect if Sasha had the specific type of flexibility in her lower back that Denise had (optimally!) and that Irina has (decently!) she would have already shown us the Biellmann. But as far as I know, she hasn't.
And I love to be wrong - so if Sasha has done it, I can't wait to see the pictures!!
DG
.....that this discussion is going on. !!??!!??
When has Sasha ever presented a Biellmann anything? While Sasha is known for her flexibility, the Biellmann position requires specific flexibility in the lower back. General flexibility does NOT equal flexibility everywhere.
As an example, MK has done wonderful Charlotte's on many occassions. Perfect split (well, IMO anyway) and "nose to the toes." That requires flexibility in certain body parts, but it doesn't mean "flexibility everywhere." The flexibility required for that move does NOT mean that MK has flexibility everywhere else.
We could go through any number of skaters and talk about the areas where they DO have flexibility, and demonstrate that on ice with certain moves. That doesn't mean those skaters have flexibility in every joint and every muscle of their bodies.
Somehow Sasha's overall flexibility has translated, IMO, into an assumption that she is Gumby, and every single joint and muscle in her entire body are capable of pretzel moves in any and every direction. I suspect if Sasha had the specific type of flexibility in her lower back that Denise had (optimally!) and that Irina has (decently!) she would have already shown us the Biellmann. But as far as I know, she hasn't.
And I love to be wrong - so if Sasha has done it, I can't wait to see the pictures!!
DG
Flexibility is natural, but also needs constant streching. Many girls were very flexible when they were young. If you don't keep up ballet lessons or streching exercise, by the time you reach 13 or 14, you'll lose great amount of the flexibility.
Sasha, Michelle, and all the skaters who have good spirals and layback spins probably strech every day. No wonder the elite skaters can spend half of their training time off ice.
Sasha, Michelle, and all the skaters who have good spirals and layback spins probably strech every day. No wonder the elite skaters can spend half of their training time off ice.
I have my own thought on this, and it's that Irina does them in competition- rather, loads her programs with them- and SC does not. To me, it's irrelevant as to whether SC can do it or not if she doesn't do it in competition. This tells me that she either a) can't do it, or b) has problems doing it. It's up to her to work around it if she wants to compete with Irina. Otherwise I don't see her winning anything.
OT a little bit: People criticize Kwan for not upping the ante, but I really don't see what Cohen is doing, either. They are both stuck in their own ruts, and it's not going to help them come 06. JMO.
OT a little bit: People criticize Kwan for not upping the ante, but I really don't see what Cohen is doing, either. They are both stuck in their own ruts, and it's not going to help them come 06. JMO.
Mathman: I agree No more fanning the audience, women or men.
I believe Sasha could perform a beeeeeeautiful Bielmann, but, please, one or two over-the-head movements are enough.
Irina lug's and labor's so much into her B it is painful to watch. Often she is running out of time and cannot complete the stretch. I guess she thinks this a signature move, I would hope she would better plan her program so the audience/judges could fully appreciate her effort.
I believe Sasha could perform a beeeeeeautiful Bielmann, but, please, one or two over-the-head movements are enough.
Irina lug's and labor's so much into her B it is painful to watch. Often she is running out of time and cannot complete the stretch. I guess she thinks this a signature move, I would hope she would better plan her program so the audience/judges could fully appreciate her effort.
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2003
yoy_mama said:
I don't know about Sasha, but Shawn Sawyer of Canada (male skater) does the Bielman better than anyone out there. It's awesome. He even does his own version of the spin. Incredible.
http://www.shawnsawyer.com/
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2004
mzheng said:
Really? The reports i've seen on Skatefans from the lower level club comps reported that most if not all the girls were doing Bielmann spins and spirals - and badly, with lots of yanking the leg up to get it not quite above their heads, not holding the position for long enough/enough revolutions to count etc.
Ant
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
Yeah, but they are working on them. That's the beginning. There is plenty of flexibility in little girls (and boys, if you will) at a young age and without ballet classes. How long they can hold that flexibility is a question of how long they work at it.antmanb said:
If these kids are going to make that ugly (my word) spin a standard element, then so be it.
Joe
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2004
Joesitz said:
Its the ISU that have made it a standard element not the kids performing them. If the Bielmann position hadn't been expressly stated as a difficult variation it wouldn't be as popular with the younger kids.
If the ISU re-wrote the code to (IMO) correctly recategorise some things to put them in their rightful place in terms of difficulty eg. a proper flying forward sitspin (for anti clockwise air spiner: LFO take off with a full one and a half turns the air, achieving the sit position at the peak of the jump, reaching down to land on the LBI edge spining in the sit position within one rev of landing) should be worth much more than a flying camel.
The powers that be have it in their power to properly tweak the system to reward certain things...if they've done it with the Bielmann then they should do us a favour and recategorise it to a lower difficulty once every man and his dog have included it in a program.
Ant
I think the use of ugly Biellmanns would taper off if the judges properly rated the GOE. Use DENISE's position as the criteria for a +3, and lower the grade accordingly for each nonstandard feature (i.e., one hand on the blade, bent raised leg, time to get into position, etc.).
Ladskater, can you show a picture of Sawyer doing a Biellmann spin? I see several of him holding his free leg very high to the side, but none of him holding it up behind him.
Skaters were doing catchfoot positions in camel spins, in laybacks, and probably in other upright positions though I don't remember them specifically before Denise Biellmann did her overhead catchfoot spin, and many variations have continued to grow in popularity during the 1980s and 90s. We've also see catchfoot positions in spirals quite often over at least the last 15 years, but not so often (yet, though we may be getting there) directly overhead in an upright position (i.e., "Biellmann" position).
Let's not use the word "Biellmann" to refer to all catchfoot positions, because they're not all the same and it's useful to be able to distinguish them. We could probably use more words do distinguish the different positions.
Most, but not all, such positions would count as "difficult positions" for the purposes of COP levels.
At preliminary, prejuvenile, and juvenile levels, I often see attempts at Biellmann positions that would be considered very weak and even unsuccessful by senior standards, but then, the same is often true of basic sit or camel or layback spins by the same skaters. If the same skaters keep working on these positions the whole time they're coming up the ranks, by intermediate level, and certainly by novice and junior, there are often some quite lovely spins in all positions including Biellmanns.
When the novice and junior skaters who had not been focusing on spin positions throughout their careers decide to add more difficult positions specifically to get higher levels under the new system, they're not going to be as successful as their peers who had already been developing those positions for years. And so we see both good and not-so-good attempts at those levels. Same as with the edge-change spins that many skaters are just starting to work on now that it's specifically named as a feature for higher levels in the new system. Or back-to-front combo/change-foot spins, which ten years ago were popular only among the French team and rare elsewhere.
And I've even seen some pre-teen and young teen boys attempting Biellmanns, without full extension but maybe they'll get there if they keep working on it if they can maintain and improve their flexibility as they finish growing. Or maybe not, depending how their bodies develop. But I think we can attribute their attempting them, over the past several years, more to the fact that anything that adds difficulty or makes the skater stand out from the crowd would be considered a plus in the old system, and to the fact that Plyushenko had been doing them, than specifically to the new system that these boys are not yet affected by and might not even have read (or had their coaches read) two years ago or so when they first started trying the positions.
Skaters were doing catchfoot positions in camel spins, in laybacks, and probably in other upright positions though I don't remember them specifically before Denise Biellmann did her overhead catchfoot spin, and many variations have continued to grow in popularity during the 1980s and 90s. We've also see catchfoot positions in spirals quite often over at least the last 15 years, but not so often (yet, though we may be getting there) directly overhead in an upright position (i.e., "Biellmann" position).
Let's not use the word "Biellmann" to refer to all catchfoot positions, because they're not all the same and it's useful to be able to distinguish them. We could probably use more words do distinguish the different positions.
Most, but not all, such positions would count as "difficult positions" for the purposes of COP levels.
At preliminary, prejuvenile, and juvenile levels, I often see attempts at Biellmann positions that would be considered very weak and even unsuccessful by senior standards, but then, the same is often true of basic sit or camel or layback spins by the same skaters. If the same skaters keep working on these positions the whole time they're coming up the ranks, by intermediate level, and certainly by novice and junior, there are often some quite lovely spins in all positions including Biellmanns.
When the novice and junior skaters who had not been focusing on spin positions throughout their careers decide to add more difficult positions specifically to get higher levels under the new system, they're not going to be as successful as their peers who had already been developing those positions for years. And so we see both good and not-so-good attempts at those levels. Same as with the edge-change spins that many skaters are just starting to work on now that it's specifically named as a feature for higher levels in the new system. Or back-to-front combo/change-foot spins, which ten years ago were popular only among the French team and rare elsewhere.
And I've even seen some pre-teen and young teen boys attempting Biellmanns, without full extension but maybe they'll get there if they keep working on it if they can maintain and improve their flexibility as they finish growing. Or maybe not, depending how their bodies develop. But I think we can attribute their attempting them, over the past several years, more to the fact that anything that adds difficulty or makes the skater stand out from the crowd would be considered a plus in the old system, and to the fact that Plyushenko had been doing them, than specifically to the new system that these boys are not yet affected by and might not even have read (or had their coaches read) two years ago or so when they first started trying the positions.
Yes, please. There's too much in the gallery to look through to find the picture you are talking about.gkelly said:
Maybe this one? Although it's dark. Could be a spiral.
http://www.shawnsawyer.com/images/05nats/normal_IMG_1089.jpg
Or these? If it's a straight leg, is it still a Biellmann? And his arms aren't reaching back over his head.
http://www.shawnsawyer.com/images/05nats/normal_IMG_5990.jpg
http://www.shawnsawyer.com/images/04COR/l1279940.jpg
It's a cool move, none the less.
Last edited:
In all of those pictures he's holding his leg to the side, and countering by leaning his upper body toward the other side. I know that he does spin in that position. But it is NOT a Biellmann. Maybe we should call it a Sawyer spin, and a Sawyer position.
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
I tried to search that gallery, too. But I kind of got sidetracked when I came to this one:
http://www.shawnsawyer.com/images/Holiday04/IMG_4514.JPG
Cool site, though!
MM
http://www.shawnsawyer.com/images/Holiday04/IMG_4514.JPG
Cool site, though!
MM
Similar threads
