The brilliance of Michelle Kwan

[antmanb]

The way I define a fan is someone who admires a person (typically what the person does) and somehow feels a connection, whether direct or indirect, to that person. So, by THAT definition, I'm not a fan of any skater. Nor am I an "enthusiastic follower or admirer" of any skater.

I should have asked that myself: What constitutes a fan, and how does one prove that an internet poster is a fan of someone without speculation or assumption?

I think feeling a connection is taking it a little into stalker territory though no? Ok aside from the "connection with the audience" that you get in skating, unless you have something that connects you to a skater e.g. you know them personally, skate/train at the same rink, sometimes share ice time, know the parents/sibling/boyfriend/girlfriend, i think that's taking it a bit far.

I would say a fan is someone follows the career of the skater and admires the skater. I love Kwan's skating and have since i first saw her skate, do i feel a connection to her? No not in the slightest!

RD - do you really not admire a single skater out there and follow their career? If you don't then why are you even interested in skating? Why not find a sport you can find positives things in?

Ant

 

[Mathman]

I guess it depends on what we mean by a "personal connection." To me, picking a particular skater to cheer for is like picking a favorite football team. The fun of being a sports fan is riding on the "thrill of victory, agony of defeat" roller coaster while you root, root, root for the home team.

MM

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

If I am not a fan of the players, I am not a fan of the Sport and I wouldn't spend my time complaining about one of the players.

I'm not a fan of baskeball but I can appreciate the days of Michael Jordan and would watch it when he played. I would not go into a forum and complain about Shack. In fact I would not go into a basketball forum.

Joe

 

[antmanb]

If I am not a fan of the players, I am not a fan of the Sport and I wouldn't spend my time complaining about one of the players.

I'm not a fan of baskeball but I can appreciate the days of Michael Jordan and would watch it when he played. I would not go into a forum and complain about Shack. In fact I would not go into a basketball forum.

Joe

Exactly! That's why i don't get understand RD's "interest" in the sport...if it was about skating, then why only the ladies? Only the ladies would make sense if there was at least one lady skater that he liked, but since he claims to like none of them i'm baffled...why ever get into watching the sport?

My history (if anyone is interested!) was watching pairs and going WOW at the throw jumps and twist lifts...they were may favourite elements and i would go nuts watching the pairs. I then realised that it was the jumps that drew me into the sport and got obsessed with watching the jumps...hence the next logical progression - the mens event where Elvis was starting to put his quad out in nearly every competition. That was me happy in my fandom ignoring ladies and dance, until worlds was held in Birmingham and we actually got excellent coverage of the whole event and i saw a young girl from America (Kwan) skate and i was mesmerized, i decided to pay more attention to the ladies and was equally impressed by a young russian skater (slutskaya) who had done a funny jump on the end of a salchow that i couldn't recognise...that was to be the double loop - it was the first time i saw a skater do a loop on the back half of a combo and given my obsession with jumps prompted me to learn all about the different jumps and combinations.

Finally my fandom took me to an actual ice rink and to actual lessons and i learnt to skate...then and only then did i actually gain an appreciation for ice dance and the purity of skating skill required in that event...then CoP came along with its required elements and killed that love dead again...except for the Kerrs!!!

Ant

 

[R.D.]

I think feeling a connection is taking it a little into stalker territory though no? Ok aside from the "connection with the audience" that you get in skating, unless you have something that connects you to a skater e.g. you know them personally, skate/train at the same rink, sometimes share ice time, know the parents/sibling/boyfriend/girlfriend, i think that's taking it a bit far.

I'm not talking about it in THAT way in particular. For example, in order for you to like Kwan so much, there HAS to be some sort of indirect connection, right? You say you love to watch her skate. To me, that implies an indirect connection between you and her. Not in the sense of knowing her, but in the sense of letting her actions affect you in some way. Get my drift?

RD - do you really not admire a single skater out there and follow their career? If you don't then why are you even interested in skating?

This may sound like an odd or incomplete answer but I wish I knew that myself. That's really the best explanation I can give you. There's something about skating at times that makes it pretty exciting to watch for me. I DO follow skaters' careers...almost all of the top ladies, actually.

Just think of me, I suppose, as one of those once-in-4-years Olympic fans who suddenly became curious about one of the "sports" and started following it to see what the hype is about. And I only follow ladies because I have no interest in pairs or dance and absolutely no interest in men's.

This really should be a new topic, though. It seems like this Kwan thread has been hijacked and is now about Red Dog. We should get the topic here back to where it started. So, where are the gushers?

 

[Kwanford Wife]

We should get the topic here back to where it started. So, where are the gushers?

Michelle Kwan is the best ever!!!! (there ya go Red Dog ~ hope that helps!)

 

[antmanb]

I'm not talking about it in THAT way in particular. For example, in order for you to like Kwan so much, there HAS to be some sort of indirect connection, right? You say you love to watch her skate. To me, that implies an indirect connection between you and her. Not in the sense of knowing her, but in the sense of letting her actions affect you in some way. Get my drift?

I do, sort of, but i'm still scratching my head because anyone who perceives anything has a reaction to it, does that necessairily make you connected to that person? Let me use an overly emotive example to explain why i question the "connection". Everyone reading this will have a had a reaction to/been touched by the actions of the guys responsible for the 911 attacks...do we, by virtue of having a (often extreme) reaction to that, have a connection? Is a connection, however indirect, only when you perceive something positively?

Trying to bring this back into the skating sphere, i've been moved to tears over the years by many many skater's programs. Kwan is one, others to add to the list are Slutskaya, Lipinski, Chen, opening out the field to other disciplines, Yagudin, Urmanov, Stojko, B&S and S&P (both of their LPs at 2001 made me cry). The list is actually quite long and not always for "artistic" skates often two programs battling for gold and silver did that (Chen & Kwan in 1996 and B&S and S&P nearly every time they competed).

The reason i'm asking about the "connection" is - when does that stop being a connection to a particular skater? I would argue that the "connection" ,if any, is to skating. Its an objective love of the general qualities of the sport, with an overlay of the subjective things i find beautiful...just to re-iterate Stojko is in the list above, he was certainly no artist on the ice yet he still moved me to tears twice...

I hold my hands up and say i'm a huge huge huge fan of Kwan's but i'm a greater fan of skating which is why in response to your question earlier on in the thread (or maybe in another thread) i'd like to say i'm an objective Kwan fan who can hear criticisms of her skating, i know what all of those criticisms are and accept them. With regards to her skating i will happily discuss those criticisms. The ones i won't hear are the speculative ones about her (or any other skater in fact) state of mind, or strategy, how s/he's feeling about something because that is always actually the poster's perception rather than the skater's.

You may disagree, and some may say that loving a skater will always colour their perception of how that person skates. I don't think it does...but maybe i have my Kwan blinkers on!!!

I can understand your answer about being intrigued about the sport but you are not one of the "once every four years" fans - you've been around since 2002...that makes you one of the fans...and in all that time you haven't found a skater who's skating makes you a fan? Allow me to be sceptical and feel free to give me a slap (in a friendly way, as the following comment is made), but it sounds to me like you have your favourites but for the very reasons that you seem to put less weight on the opinions of those who are self declared "fans". If you say you are not a fan of a particular skater then you can be perceived to be more impartial...the only way you can achieve that is by often commenting on skaters in a negative way rather than looking to the positive? Come on, am i at least a little bit right??

Ant

 

[Mathman]

We should get the topic here back to where it started. So, where are the gushers?

Michelle Kwan is the best ever!!!!

The earth revolves around her Axel.

 

[antmanb]

The earth revolves around her Axel.

Excellent!!!

 

[R.D.]

I do, sort of, but i'm still scratching my head because anyone who perceives anything has a reaction to it, does that necessairily make you connected to that person? Let me use an overly emotive example to explain why i question the "connection". Everyone reading this will have a had a reaction to/been touched by the actions of the guys responsible for the 911 attacks...do we, by virtue of having a (often extreme) reaction to that, have a connection? Is a connection, however indirect, only when you perceive something positively?

I see it like this: Just because all As are Bs doesn't mean all Bs are As. So, if you are a fan of someone, IMO it implies some sort of connection, but just because you have a connection to someone does not imply that you are a fan of that person. See what I mean?

Trying to bring this back into the skating sphere, i've been moved to tears over the years by many many skater's programs. Kwan is one, others to add to the list are Slutskaya, Lipinski, Chen, opening out the field to other disciplines, Yagudin, Urmanov, Stojko, B&S and S&P (both of their LPs at 2001 made me cry). The list is actually quite long and not always for "artistic" skates often two programs battling for gold and silver did that (Chen & Kwan in 1996 and B&S and S&P nearly every time they competed).

There are some performances that leave me with the impression of "That's very good!" Examples include Shizuka's 06 Olympic LP and 04 Worlds FS, Cohen's Olympic SP and 04 Worlds SP, and Suguri's 06 Olympic LP. (note: this is by all means not a comprehensive list.) But I'm not moved by these performances. There's not that extra element of feeling in them, IMO. I think the closest I've come to actually "being moved" was MK's 03 nationals FS. And that's saying a lot because all her performances since then have been, IMO, very bland.

The reason i'm asking about the "connection" is - when does that stop being a connection to a particular skater? I would argue that the "connection" ,if any, is to skating. Its an objective love of the general qualities of the sport, with an overlay of the subjective things i find beautiful...just to re-iterate Stojko is in the list above, he was certainly no artist on the ice yet he still moved me to tears twice...

The fact that you were moved all the way to tears means that his performance must have TOUCHED you in some way, and you may not even know how. (That's fine, and normal.) You don't just cry for no reason- SOMETHING has to trigger that action. And that SOMETHING is that connection I've been talking about. You may not even know it's there, but it is. It HAS to be.

The connection doesn't even have to be to the skater herself. It can just be during that particular PERFORMANCE.

I hold my hands up and say i'm a huge huge huge fan of Kwan's but i'm a greater fan of skating which is why in response to your question earlier on in the thread (or maybe in another thread) i'd like to say i'm an objective Kwan fan who can hear criticisms of her skating, i know what all of those criticisms are and accept them. With regards to her skating i will happily discuss those criticisms. The ones i won't hear are the speculative ones about her (or any other skater in fact) state of mind, or strategy, how s/he's feeling about something because that is always actually the poster's perception rather than the skater's.

Well, it's basically impossible to be completely 100% objective. Just being human prevents that from happening- EVERYONE has some sort of bias. In order to be objective you'd have to report facts and ONLY facts. There will always be something that will set you off. In my case it's people who like to jump to conclusions.

If you were to be totally "objective" re Kwan (meaning can hear anything about her without "shutting down") you would be able to hear anything and not feel any real emotion about it. Still, in my case, sometimes it's hard for me to do this because of some of the people making the comments.

You may disagree, and some may say that loving a skater will always colour their perception of how that person skates. I don't think it does...but maybe i have my Kwan blinkers on!!!

If I can rip those blinkers off of you , let me just say that I DO totally disagree with what you're saying. Once you start the process of becoming a fan of that skater, you just don't see things about her the same way. I can vouch for this (being fans of others in other sports).

I can understand your answer about being intrigued about the sport but you are not one of the "once every four years" fans - you've been around since 2002...that makes you one of the fans...and in all that time you haven't found a skater who's skating makes you a fan?

come on...four years isn't all THAT long...and I'm young, too...

I kind of AM a once-in-4-years fan in a sense: I watched in 1998, came back for 02, followed skating up to 06, watched in 06, and regardless of whether there is enough to keep me interested between now and 10, I will definitely be watching the ladies competition again in Vancouver. And again in 2014. And so on.

But there isn't one skater in particular who I'm constantly interested in. It's sort of a combination of all the skaters. Once the current crop of skaters retires, unless I warm up to the new competitors I'm finished with following skating.

Allow me to be sceptical and feel free to give me a slap (in a friendly way, as the following comment is made), but it sounds to me like you have your favourites but for the very reasons that you seem to put less weight on the opinions of those who are self declared "fans". If you say you are not a fan of a particular skater then you can be perceived to be more impartial...the only way you can achieve that is by often commenting on skaters in a negative way rather than looking to the positive? Come on, am i at least a little bit right??

- Re. Favorites: I don't have a favorite skater- I've said time and time again. But what I DO have is a sort of, I suppose, "vested interest" that sort of drifts from skater to skater as time goes on. In the beginning I remember that skater was Sarah Hughes. I wasn't a fan of hers in the sense but I was interested enough in her to learn about her competitive history, etc. But at the same time I was still a fan of *skating*. can you understand what I mean here?

Then at one point it was Michelle Kwan. I remember I used to be a regular poster at MKF in 02 before it got crazy. In fact that was the first skating forum I registered at. I followed all news about her and learned about her and even started a picture collection, which I THINK started with pictures of her (I'm NOT sure, though- now that I think of it, it may actually have been Sarah)- now that collection has grown to more than 16,000 photos of all sorts of skaters. I also began making and collecting videos starting with 2002 Worlds. But, believe it or not, I wasn't a FAN of hers in that sense. I was interested in learning more about her but I wasn't supporting her, enjoying her skating, etc.

I remember a few posters that I chatted with here (when GS had a chat room on ezboard) suspected I was a Kwanfan because I was an active poster on MKF and nowhere else. (I think when it got crazy, and soon after I discovered GS, that's when I began to switch to hanging out here most of the time instead.)

I think during the 02-03 season it shifted to Cohen. Not surprisingly this coincided with comments that people started to make that they believed I was a Sasha fan. And I wasn't: I probably was just posting more about her because it was kind of a "vested interest". But once again, wasn't enjoying her skating or wasn't supporting her as a fan in that sense. This happened again recently, I think shortly after the Olympics. (hence the videos and photos I posted).

And most of the time I'm in true "nonfan" mode, where I'm not interested in ANY skaters individually- just want to see the performances.

I hope this explains my stance. Not an outright fan of any skaters, but occasionally might "learn more" about a skater.

Recently it was Carolina Kostner. Bet none of you guys knew that, did you?

(ETA: I noticed that this is one of my longer posts. I apologize for its length.)

 

[Mathman]

For Red Dog:

http://www.touristime.it/download/PERSONAL3~sport/carolina_kostner.jpg

 

[R.D.]

hehe...

I have that picture already, by the way.

 

[jenaj]

Michelle Kwan is the best ever!!!! (there ya go Red Dog ~ hope that helps!)

The best ever and the best there ever will be!

 

[MKFSfan]

Well, Red Dog-I have "followed" your posts for a while and I have to say, I'm always interested in what you say. Sometimes, I find you pretty objective in general, and sometimes you seem more "vested in" certain skaters, but always I find you entertaining! And your zillions picture sharing always helps keep me interested! :thumbsup:

I like to believe I am a fan of figure skating, and I also admit I love Michelle Kwan above all others. I AM vested in her, as my interest in her following the whole "whack" debacle. For me, Michelle is what kept me interested, as opposed to a "whenever I happen to catch a FS show on TV" fan. I didn't become an obsessed/solo fan until after Nagano, though. So, in a way, that's how I perceive my "connection" to Michelle is-I feel it is more familiarity than anything else. While I can say I get upset when thing don't go accordiningly to how I hope for Michelle, at the same time, I don't lock myself in my room or refuse to watch FS ever again. I've never attended an ISU sanctioned event, but I've gone to several cheesfests and COI's, mainly to see Michelle, but also to enjoy the skaters!

Anyway, I realize many won't share the same views of me, and are allowed to voice their opinions of any skater. I like that, as that is the purpose of forums!

 

[Dee4707]

I remember a few posters that I chatted with here (when GS had a chat room on ezboard)

Red Dog I forgot about the chat room and now I remember visiting with you in it. Honestly Red Dog, I really understand where you're coming from. I have my favorites - Johnny and Sasha because I love, love to watch them skate. Have I checked out their boards........no. So I, in my mind, would not say that I am a fan of theirs. I would say they are my favorites.

As for Ms. Kwan, I have a lot of respect for her and I like watching her skate but as far as her either bringing me to tears, no or feeling anything while she skates, no, except joy if she does a good job. I think that sometimes it is so hard for her fans to hear and that's why I very seldom join in on gushing or praising Michelle. She just doesn't affect me the way you (her fans) want or expect me to be affected. And for me that has been a very big turnoff.

Red Dog, you are as popular as Camille was or is. I think people just like to tease you, I know I do.

Fondly,

Dee

 

[R.D.]

thanks, always glad to be of service.

Hopefully I explained myself clearly above so you can finally understand why at times I seem to have more interest in certain skaters than others.

On the topic of pics, sInce this thread is about Michelle Kwan and how great she is, why not some pictures of her in action?

 

[R.D.]

I have my favorites - Johnny and Sasha because I love, love to watch them skate. Have I checked out their boards........no. So I, in my mind, would not say that I am a fan of theirs. I would say they are my favorites.

Ah, I see. That's a really good way to put it. But even if I was to apply that definition to myself, I still wouldn't have a favorite. I hope you understand.

She just doesn't affect me the way you (her fans) want or expect me to be affected. And for me that has been a very big turnoff.

Sorry to shout...but...SAME HERE!!!!

 

[Dee4707]

Ah, I see. That's a really good way to put it. But even if I was to apply that definition to myself, I still wouldn't have a favorite. I hope you understand.

Sure I do!! But that doesn't mean I'm going to quit teasing you, it's just fun to do it. I hope you understand that.

Dee

 

[R.D.]

yeah, well, whatever I guess.

 

[MKFSfan]

Thanks, RD! I enjoyed seeing those pics!

OK...maybe there's a line between having favorites or being a fan. If I take myself away from Michelle, it's easier for me to see where you come from! Watching the Olympics '06 was much different for me than watching in '02. All I wanted in '02 was for Michelle to skate clean and win. These Games, I was rooting for a good, inspiring performance, from anyone. I got to come away with good moments from different skaters, but no "tears of joy!" or no memorable performances worth saving on a DVD, for me that is! I don't get the allure of Johnny Weir, or even Plushy. I know they are great and have a lot to offer, but I don't find myself watching JUST to watch them. To each their own.

There are many Michelle performances that reach me in different ways, elicit emotions of joy, excitement, passion, sorrow, etc. maybe that's what makes it more personal for me. But at the same time, I don't expect or even care if others do not feel the same way! I went to see SOI the other day and Yuka drew my interest the most that night. I've never really watched her performances before, and couldn't tell you what she skated to in 1994, so I guess that doesn't make me a "fan", but I have to say, she was my favorite!

Back O/T: IMO, Michelle is the very best to ever lace up skates!