The brilliance of Michelle Kwan

[R.D.]

Watching the Olympics '06 was much different for me than watching in '02. All I wanted in '02 was for Michelle to skate clean and win. These Games, I was rooting for a good, inspiring performance, from anyone.

You know, I more or less felt the same way.

 

[Kwanford Wife]

I think the discussion of favorite vs. fan of is quite interesting... I didn't realize there was a difference... I'm a fan of my favorite. But then, I'm a fan of a lot of athletes and sometimes my football fandom (where craziness is not only the norm but also appreciated) can come across as MK obsessed... (well, I probably am obsessed in a "I don't have time to stalk her, but..." way) and as MZheng will attest, cannot stomach the MKF... I love MK but there is a limit ~ I'd assume that adult SashaFans can probably relate to that...

I will say, however, that I do not and will not understand how a person can be all about a sport and still not be a fan / favorite of a skater, team, whatnot. I don't see the fun in that ~ unless the fun comes from annoying those who are certain that their favorite is the best ever (which Michelle is...) or just hanging out in the chat rooms...

But I will say that one thing that seperates a fan of their favorite vs. a simple fan of figure skating is the passion you see expressed in the posts. Sometimes I'd get so amused by the posting of Sasha fans who'd talk about her being so fabulous, and I'd laugh at the delusion... But my husband, a MAJOR Detroit Lions fan, would tell me that Sasha fans are the truth because they support her regardless of a silver due to a splat. And I try to keep that in mind... its easy to be a Michelle Kwan fan. She's the best ever. The Greatest of all Time. We Kwaniacs (gosh, how I hate that term...) can whip out that record & bash all day long. And we do ~ well at least I do ( I don't want to speak for others...) But this season has given me a better perspective into how the "other half lives" ~ something I haven't been acquianted with for 10 years... And I know that regardless of the sematics, I am a hard core Kwan fan...

The downside is that I'm still questioning how big a fan of skating I'll be after this season... the Divas seem to be puttering out, the newbies don't interest me much, the men aren't "manly" anymore, CoP is a nightmare, Navka has taken her headbands & left the building and to be honest after this olympics pairs competition ~ I'm done with that discipline. But we'll see... I might just hang out in the chat rooms & scream Michelle Kwan is the best ever all day long...

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Kwanforwife - it will undoubtedly be the YEAR OF THEMETS

 

[Mathman]

But my husband, a MAJOR Detroit Lions fan...

Chrysler just laid off 30,000 workers, and GM had its stock reduced to junk bond status, but today the Lions announced the signing of yet another quarterback. Harrington's toast and forget Jon Kitna (signed last week). It's Josh McCown!

Sasha fans are pikers. Their girl got second place!!! We've stood by the Lions since 1957, through thin and thinner. :agree:

MM

 

[flowjo35]

As for Ms. Kwan, I have a lot of respect for her and I like watching her skate but as far as her either bringing me to tears, no or feeling anything while she skates, no, except joy if she does a good job. I think that sometimes it is so hard for her fans to hear and that's why I very seldom join in on gushing or praising Michelle. She just doesn't affect me the way you (her fans) want or expect me to be affected. And for me that has been a very big turnoff.

As a Michelle fan I don't think everyone has to find joy in her skating. Speaking for myself I find exceeding joy in her skating and have no problem with others who don't. Too each their own.

 

[Germanice]

Kwan was mainly an US-thing. Like many others here in Europe I never couldn't comprehend all that (patriotic?) gushing on her. There have been some fans for sure, but all in all she always left European skating fans ice-cold and pretty unimpressed.

Anke

 

[R.D.]

Do you claim to speak for all Europeans, or is that just your (strong) opinion?

 

[Dennis]

Kwan was mainly an US-thing. Like many others here in Europe I never couldn't comprehend all that (patriotic?) gushing on her. There have been some fans for sure, but all in all she always left European skating fans ice-cold and pretty unimpressed.

Anke

Like Irina?

 

[Dennis]

Do you claim to speak for all Europeans, or is that just your (strong) opinion?

Did you really stick up for Kwan?

 

[Ogre Mage]

Kwan was mainly an US-thing. Like many others here in Europe I never couldn't comprehend all that (patriotic?) gushing on her. There have been some fans for sure, but all in all she always left European skating fans ice-cold and pretty unimpressed.

Anke

There are some European posters on this board who I bet would contradict you. BTW, the Cold War is over.

One may be disinterested or even dislike Kwan's skating but given her competitive record and numerous lights-out performances ('96 Worlds, '98 Nationals, 2000 Worlds, 2001 Worlds, 2003 Nationals and Worlds) one cannot discount her status as a legend. She did not become a 9-time National Champion, 5-time World Champion and 2-time Olympic Medalist by being mediocre. I am impressed by the quality of her skating, not simply following her because of some blind patriotism. Tara and Sarah were U.S. ladies and I could not stand the skating of either.

 

[antmanb]

Red Dog I forgot about the chat room and now I remember visiting with you in it. Honestly Red Dog, I really understand where you're coming from. I have my favorites - Johnny and Sasha because I love, love to watch them skate. Have I checked out their boards........no. So I, in my mind, would not say that I am a fan of theirs. I would say they are my favorites.

As for Ms. Kwan, I have a lot of respect for her and I like watching her skate but as far as her either bringing me to tears, no or feeling anything while she skates, no, except joy if she does a good job. I think that sometimes it is so hard for her fans to hear and that's why I very seldom join in on gushing or praising Michelle. She just doesn't affect me the way you (her fans) want or expect me to be affected. And for me that has been a very big turnoff.

Dee

OK OK...RD i think between you and Dee you've convinced me about this "connection" thing about being a fan - i get it, cos when i feel it, i feel it, and when i don't, i don't. I've watched footage of Oksana Baiul's Olympic skate and honestly didn't like it one bit, not the costume, not the skating, not the jumps, none of it, i actively thought it was bad. But so many (knowledgeable) people love it and can gush for an age over it. So Dee i totally understand why you might not be moved by Michelle's skating, or even feel nothing when she skates, i can see that her style opens itself up to both praise and detractions for the exact same thing and if you see one and i see the other that's ok...i feel the same about some skaters (like Baiul) and would hope i don't get laid into for not screaming from the rooftops about her!

Ant

 

[antmanb]

I see it like this: Just because all As are Bs doesn't mean all Bs are As. So, if you are a fan of someone, IMO it implies some sort of connection, but just because you have a connection to someone does not imply that you are a fan of that person. See what I mean?

I'm not sure i really do follow, but later on i was reading Dee's post and i think i do agree with you about the connection, though i would say this, the connection isn't necessarily to do with the skater and more to do with what they actually do on the ice (and thinking about it, often the music - which might speak to me for different reasons). An example - Kostner, who's competitive programs i've not really enjoyed for the last couple of seasons as much as i used to. But her Ave Maria exhibition remains one of the highlights of Torino for me - the flowing beautiful edges and the lines she hits, that's equisite skating and moved me...connection to the skater....not so much because half the time (like the "shhh" moments in last years LP i want to leap on the ice slap her and say "you're 18 years old not 8, stop that!" and then fly to canada and slap Kurt Browning around for giving her such childish choreography!).

There are some performances that leave me with the impression of "That's very good!" Examples include Shizuka's 06 Olympic LP and 04 Worlds FS, Cohen's Olympic SP and 04 Worlds SP, and Suguri's 06 Olympic LP. (note: this is by all means not a comprehensive list.) But I'm not moved by these performances. There's not that extra element of feeling in them, IMO. I think the closest I've come to actually "being moved" was MK's 03 nationals FS. And that's saying a lot because all her performances since then have been, IMO, very bland.

You mean you weren't moved by Irina's LP at worlds in Moscow?? Come on RD, do you have a heart of stone?? How can you not be moved by that performance and her reaction immediately afterwards?!!! Seriously though, i can see why you might not be moved by skating. You describe yourself as more of a casual observer than a die hard fan. I wouldn't be moved by anything i only cared a tiny bit about. I'm much more invested in skating therefore i'm more likely to be moved and as you rightly point out, a skater like Michelle or Irina who i've been watching for over ten years and come to like a lot are more likely to get a "short cut" to move me than others....though B&S i think moved me to tears the first time i ever saw them....i think the SP they did at Europeans in the gold outfits...WOW! IN that circumstance i knew nothing about the skaters, i watched what they did on the ice and it moved me...totally aside from them as people it was a pure skating thing not a skater/personality thing.

Well, it's basically impossible to be completely 100% objective. Just being human prevents that from happening- EVERYONE has some sort of bias. In order to be objective you'd have to report facts and ONLY facts. There will always be something that will set you off. In my case it's people who like to jump to conclusions.

In that case we agree, what i would say is that i don't think my fandom stops me from evaluating other skater's performances, or from looking at my favourites performances...in fact i would say my fandom has often had me judge Kwan's programs more harshly than others because i expect so much more of her than others. And people jumping to conclusions was my point about people making ridiculous statements on how skaters are feeling, or what there strategy is, and stating it as a fact when the skater has made no such statement.

If you were to be totally "objective" re Kwan (meaning can hear anything about her without "shutting down") you would be able to hear anything and not feel any real emotion about it. Still, in my case, sometimes it's hard for me to do this because of some of the people making the comments.

I disagree, i don't think being objective means being emotionless, i think it means being able to understand what's being said to you and understand why. In my line of work i have to hear all manner of statements and understand them...i nearly always have my own opinion on them which does not always correlate to that of my client but have to act on my clients wishes. I can hear any statement about Kwan and be objective about it, i can also have my own opinions. If i think the statement is well reasoned then i'll let it lie if it requires further explanation then i might question further. The stand alone statement "Michelle Kwan is a slow spinner" i think is not entirely correct, i might ask "compared to who", "in which spins", i might then say - have you seen any skaters outside of the final flight, cos i think michelle spoins faster than most of them (excluding Sarah Meier!) and then maybe pose the wild idea that actually Michelle isn't a slow spinner, she's just slower than a handful of other people who are pretty damned skilled at spinning.

I kind of AM a once-in-4-years fan in a sense: I watched in 1998, came back for 02, followed skating up to 06, watched in 06, and regardless of whether there is enough to keep me interested between now and 10, I will definitely be watching the ladies competition again in Vancouver. And again in 2014. And so on.

But there isn't one skater in particular who I'm constantly interested in. It's sort of a combination of all the skaters. Once the current crop of skaters retires, unless I warm up to the new competitors I'm finished with following skating.

Well ok, but i just don't get why you bother watching skating, if you're not a fan of the sport or of a particular person. And we all have to go through the post Olympic thought process of - well a lot of my favourites have retired, some of whom i've been watching competitively for over ten years, so who do i like now? Honeslty in the Men's i've been reeling since Yags left...no one has filled that void, but some skaters have through for magic moments but none enough to say i'm a fan.


Ant (who hasn't even attempted to proof read this long post!)

 

[antmanb]

She just doesn't affect me the way you (her fans) want or expect me to be affected. And for me that has been a very big turnoff.

Sorry to shout...but...SAME HERE!!!!

Now you see that i don't understand, i don't expect or want anyone to be affected in any way by a particular skater. I start from that ridiculous place where you think everyone will pretty much have the same or a simliar reaction to me to a skate...then you come on these boards and see that a hundred different people will have seen the same thing a hundred different ways. I might come on gushing about a performance that Kwan had and someone else might disagree. By and large i like to think i don't just come on and say - oh she was great, full stop. I will usually give good reasons as to why i thought it was great. Nothing riles me more than someone who says something was bad and doesn't give any reason for why. Nothing riles me more than a strupid reason for someone saying an entire performance was rubbish e.g. (and i actively don't like Cohen's skating) anyone saying Cohen's Olympic LP was totally rubbish because she fell on her two opening jumps (leaving the COP definition of fall to one side!) leaves me banging my head against the wall in frustration and makes me think the poster is not only being anti cohen for the sake of it but also makes me think the poster is totally ignorant of skating technique and the sport if they can't take the two falls out of their mind and then look at the rest of the program and appreciate something in it...even i managed to and i don't like her skating!

All i ask is that if people post their opinions on things that they give their reasons...if they don't give reasons or give reasons that i don't think justifies the statement i'll likely enter into a debate.

The exemption to that is what someone feels about a performance, or an emotional reation to it - because that is totally personal and sometimes unexplainable. If someone says - Kwan's performance was bland and boring, i as someone who found it emotional and moving, might ask you if you really thought it was bland and boring and why...out of interest and might even say because i found when she did X, Y or Z it really made me feel like this...didn't it you? If your answer is no, then that's pretty much that - you didn't feel it...you're not me so that's no surprise, end of story.

Ant (who is now rambling to new lengths!)

 

[antmanb]

, but all in all she always left European skating fans ice-cold and pretty unimpressed.

Anke

As a european skating fan i'd like to point out that the above statement is now factually incorrect!

And the screaming girlies at my rink in the UK (technically in wales) all talk about Kwan...half of them skate to "Fields of Gold" with stolen choreography...and there were many tears from them when Kwan withdrew from the Olympics. I think they felt quite a lot for her.

Ant

 

[R.D.]

I'm not sure i really do follow, but later on i was reading Dee's post and i think i do agree with you about the connection, though i would say this, the connection isn't necessarily to do with the skater and more to do with what they actually do on the ice (and thinking about it, often the music - which might speak to me for different reasons). An example - Kostner, who's competitive programs i've not really enjoyed for the last couple of seasons as much as i used to. But her Ave Maria exhibition remains one of the highlights of Torino for me - the flowing beautiful edges and the lines she hits, that's equisite skating and moved me...connection to the skater....not so much because half the time (like the "shhh" moments in last years LP i want to leap on the ice slap her and say "you're 18 years old not 8, stop that!" and then fly to canada and slap Kurt Browning around for giving her such childish choreography!).

I agree...it isn't a connection in the sense that you think most of the time, but a sort of implicit connection- that happens when you watch a skater and become engaged in the performance.

You mean you weren't moved by Irina's LP at worlds in Moscow?? Come on RD, do you have a heart of stone?? How can you not be moved by that performance and her reaction immediately afterwards?!!! Seriously though, i can see why you might not be moved by skating. You describe yourself as more of a casual observer than a die hard fan. I wouldn't be moved by anything i only cared a tiny bit about. I'm much more invested in skating therefore i'm more likely to be moved and as you rightly point out, a skater like Michelle or Irina who i've been watching for over ten years and come to like a lot are more likely to get a "short cut" to move me than others....though B&S i think moved me to tears the first time i ever saw them....i think the SP they did at Europeans in the gold outfits...WOW! IN that circumstance i knew nothing about the skaters, i watched what they did on the ice and it moved me...totally aside from them as people it was a pure skating thing not a skater/personality thing.

Irina is my least favorite top skater but she delivered when it counted most, in her hometown, too. It was a great performance for her and she should be proud of her Moscow Gold. She totally deserved to win that one.

I think you're right in that it might be harder for a casual fan like myself to be "moved" by a performance. But I consider myself to be tougher than that- I'm not one who cries, really. I'll admit that I would feel lesser if I started crying during someone's skating performance. Don't ask why, because I don't really know myself...

I think I could be moved by a performance without crying, though.

In that case we agree, what i would say is that i don't think my fandom stops me from evaluating other skater's performances, or from looking at my favourites performances...in fact i would say my fandom has often had me judge Kwan's programs more harshly than others because i expect so much more of her than others. And people jumping to conclusions was my point about people making ridiculous statements on how skaters are feeling, or what there strategy is, and stating it as a fact when the skater has made no such statement.

That's another thing, too. Some fans tend to be more critical because they may want more out of their favorite skater. But, on the forums, I would NEVER assume someone is a fan or not a fan unless they told me themselves.

I disagree, i don't think being objective means being emotionless, i think it means being able to understand what's being said to you and understand why. In my line of work i have to hear all manner of statements and understand them...i nearly always have my own opinion on them which does not always correlate to that of my client but have to act on my clients wishes. I can hear any statement about Kwan and be objective about it, i can also have my own opinions. If i think the statement is well reasoned then i'll let it lie if it requires further explanation then i might question further. The stand alone statement "Michelle Kwan is a slow spinner" i think is not entirely correct, i might ask "compared to who", "in which spins", i might then say - have you seen any skaters outside of the final flight, cos i think michelle spoins faster than most of them (excluding Sarah Meier!) and then maybe pose the wild idea that actually Michelle isn't a slow spinner, she's just slower than a handful of other people who are pretty damned skilled at spinning.

I think there is a difference between being objective and having an objective mindset. I believe no one can be truly objective, because I DO think it means being "emotionless" (as you call it) about that subject. However, one can have an objective mindset (the way you described it- understanding the other side and why they think the way they do) and still maintain one's own opinion. I strive to maintain an objective mindset on the skating forums. I still have my opinions but I try to see all sides. The only caveat is when something gets heard over and over again. Then you just want to...well, never mind

Well ok, but i just don't get why you bother watching skating, if you're not a fan of the sport or of a particular person. And we all have to go through the post Olympic thought process of - well a lot of my favourites have retired, some of whom i've been watching competitively for over ten years, so who do i like now? Honeslty in the Men's i've been reeling since Yags left...no one has filled that void, but some skaters have through for magic moments but none enough to say i'm a fan.

I tried to explain it to you guys the best way I could. It's understandable if a fan doesn't understand why someone else can't be a fan, but regardless of whether you get it or not, it's true.

 

[R.D.]

Now you see that i don't understand, i don't expect or want anyone to be affected in any way by a particular skater. I start from that ridiculous place where you think everyone will pretty much have the same or a simliar reaction to me to a skate...then you come on these boards and see that a hundred different people will have seen the same thing a hundred different ways. I might come on gushing about a performance that Kwan had and someone else might disagree. By and large i like to think i don't just come on and say - oh she was great, full stop. I will usually give good reasons as to why i thought it was great. Nothing riles me more than someone who says something was bad and doesn't give any reason for why. Nothing riles me more than a strupid reason for someone saying an entire performance was rubbish e.g. (and i actively don't like Cohen's skating) anyone saying Cohen's Olympic LP was totally rubbish because she fell on her two opening jumps (leaving the COP definition of fall to one side!) leaves me banging my head against the wall in frustration and makes me think the poster is not only being anti cohen for the sake of it but also makes me think the poster is totally ignorant of skating technique and the sport if they can't take the two falls out of their mind and then look at the rest of the program and appreciate something in it...even i managed to and i don't like her skating!

All i ask is that if people post their opinions on things that they give their reasons...if they don't give reasons or give reasons that i don't think justifies the statement i'll likely enter into a debate.

The exemption to that is what someone feels about a performance, or an emotional reation to it - because that is totally personal and sometimes unexplainable. If someone says - Kwan's performance was bland and boring, i as someone who found it emotional and moving, might ask you if you really thought it was bland and boring and why...out of interest and might even say because i found when she did X, Y or Z it really made me feel like this...didn't it you? If your answer is no, then that's pretty much that - you didn't feel it...you're not me so that's no surprise, end of story.

Ant (who is now rambling to new lengths!)

And that's what debate is all about. That's what makes it so interesting. It would be boring if everyone thought the same thing.

 

[Germanice]

Do you claim to speak for all Europeans, or is that just your (strong) opinion?

Of course I cannot speak for every single skating fan in Europe and I've never doubted she may have had some fans in this particular part of the world, but believe me, I'm long enough in the "business" to know what I'm writing about. I'm European, I'm skating fan, as a result I've talked to lot of fans here, via attending skating events, e-mail, chat, message boards etc. Kwan was never a big deal here - and exceptions just proved the rule.

Just take one ordinary Kwan gush thread, here, on FSU, wherever - and how many European fans normally participating there. If Kwan would've had so many fans in Europe, they must've been damned quiet for such a long time!

Talkin' about US-skaters, popular in Europe ... Johnny Weir is one rare example, and I even dare to claim Cohen has more fans here than Kwan ever had.

Anke


Like many others I'm glad the Cold War is over.
But I don't get what it has to do with my 1st post in this thread.

 

[jenaj]

Kwan was mainly an US-thing. Like many others here in Europe I never couldn't comprehend all that (patriotic?) gushing on her. There have been some fans for sure, but all in all she always left European skating fans ice-cold and pretty unimpressed.

Anke

"Eurpopean" is kind of a broad term, isn't it, given that Europe includes many different countries and cultures? Well anyway, Susanna Poykio seems to admire Michelle's skating.

 

[Dee4707]

All i ask is that if people post their opinions on things that they give their reasons...if they don't give reasons or give reasons that i don't think justifies the statement i'll likely enter into a debate.

Antmanb, you bring up a very good point here and what I think it does is bring on good adult conversation and other thought provoking ideas.

I love to watch skating and I was so excited for the Olympics and I can't tell you how disappointed I was with the men's long programs. Yet, even though I said in this thread that Johnny is one of my favorites, I did not have blinders on when it came to his LP skate. I made quite a few comments about he needs to concentrate more on his skating than all this other princess Johnny stuff. I was very angry with him for a few days. The one skate that did give me goosebumps and is not considered a favorite was Joannie Rochette. I loved her music and her skate.

I think what is irritating is when a poster says, Skater A, is the best, end of story. Well, I might not think the same, and make a comment about Skater B and that skater is then bashed to the nines or everything they ever did will be rehashed from the time they saw the skater picking their nose to how poorly they lace their skates to it looks like they are not well trained and it goes on, and on, and on. So to me what is happening is Skater A is still shining and Skater B has been totally picked apart. So then I have doubts about posters who are very insecure about Skater A that they have to bash Skater B to make a point.

Antmanb, thanks for your post, I appreciate your comments.

Dee

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I'm an American; I was a figure skater; I know the difference between a flip and a lutz; I've been a long time skating fan. I like the Sport very much. I have limited interest in exhibition skating. I like ALL disciplines of skating Not just interested in the Ladies.

As for Michelle's international popularity, I don't think the Europeans like her more than Irina Slutskaya whom I gather is the most popular lady skater in Europe. I'm thinking this based on a live watch of Worlds in Dortmund. I do not know if Michelle is popular in Asia. Maybe someone on the Board could give us a clue. Her popularity in America is high but in America there are so many ethnic influences in judgment that it could be not as high as everyone thinks. America has some wonderful Lady figure skaters.

It really doesn't matter. Your favorite is your favorite and nobody can take that away from you.

Joe