The Case for Handwork: Balancing Art and Sport in Figure Skating

[Mathman]

The strange thing about these discussions of whether figure skating is art or not is that the great majority of people ask instead, “Is figure skating a sport?”

Is fishing a sport? (I am athlete: I fish.) Are fox hunting and bear-bating sports? Horse racing? Automobile racing? Boxing? Poker? (Google it: ”Given that poker is an activity involving physical and mental exertion with a set of rules and customs where players compete against others, poker clearly – clearly! -- meets mainstream definitions of a sport.”)

Detractors who say that figure skating is not a sport (in so far as they say anything about figure skating at all) point out not only the fancy costumes and the pretty music (the emperor Nero won gold medals at early Olympics in the sport of singing), but also the judging, which in spite of all our effotrs still strikes many casual observers – those sillies --as sort of like the judging of a pie-baking contest. (We, of course, know better.)

 

[4everchan]

Detractors who say that figure skating is not a sport (in so far as they say anything about figure skating at all) point out not only the fancy costumes and the pretty music (the emperor Nero won gold medals at early Olympics in the sport of singing), but also the judging, which in spite of all our effotrs still strikes many casual observers – those sillies --as sort of like the judging of a pie-baking contest. (We, of course, know better.)

That's exactly one of the reasons why some people (like me) hope that the focus remains on the sportive aspect of figure skating and nothing else...

 

[el henry]

I am certainly interested in emphasizing the sporting aspect of figure skating:

the interpretation of the music (sport)
the performance of the choreography (sport)
new and different choreography (sport)

not to mention blade to ice skills and spins.

As long as the focus remains there, people like me chillin' maxin' and relaxin'. And enjoying the sport.

And which is why the discussion continues. Because it is always ”me and all my friends". I include myself as one making those arguments. How could it be otherwise?

 

[4everchan]

I am certainly interested in emphasizing the sporting aspect of figure skating:

the interpretation of the music (sport)
the performance of the choreography (sport)
new and different choreography (sport)

not to mention blade to ice skills and spins.

As long as the focus remains there, people like me chillin' main' and relaxin'. And enjoying the sport.

And which is why the discussion continues. Because it is always "me and all my friends". I include myself in making those arguments. How could it be otherwise?

Ermmm...

interpretation of music and performance of the choreography can be measured in terms of synchronicity, rhythm and precision in the execution. This is already done in synchro skating as well as "artistic" swimming. We also already see it evaluated "technically" in dance with key points for instance (at least in junior) but with any choreography that is synchronized in both pairs and dance. Twizzles must be done precisely at the same time, a lot of step sequences show that... this is all sportive elements requiring precise training.

Blade ice skills and spins are also technical elements of the sport. Both spins and step sequences are leveled and are evaluated both qualitatively and quantitatively.... For instance, and respectively, centering, number of revolutions in a spin. In steps, to get all their levels skaters must, for instance, show constant upper body movement (qualitative) as well as a number of specific turns (quantitative).


All of what you enjoy is already sport.

And just for fun, since you mention American football often, guess what, they have "choreo' elements as well... When the quarterback selects a play, he sends his player to specific spots on the field. When well executed, he is able to throw the ball to a specific receiver.... You may call that "a play" but it is still a series of choreographic elements I guess that's why you and "your friends" enjoy football so much as its roots are deeply artistic

 

[Mathman]

My take on this question is this. Is figure skating an art? Is it a sport? These are questions about the definitions of words, not really about figure skating per se.

Is figure skating a flib? Is it a floob? Is it a flibbity floob or a floobity flib? Either way, it is what it is. We will not induce sculptors to become figure skating fans by calling it an art. We will not recruit any rugby fans by pointing out how sporty it is.

 

[LolaSkatesInJapan]

The strange thing about these discussions of whether figure skating is art or not is that the great majority of people ask instead, “Is figure skating a sport?”

Is fishing a sport? (I am athlete: I fish.) Are fox hunting and bear-bating sports? Horse racing? Automobile racing? Boxing? Poker? (Google it: ”Given that poker is an activity involving physical and mental exertion with a set of rules and customs where players compete against others, poker clearly – clearly! -- meets mainstream definitions of a sport.”)

Detractors who say that figure skating is not a sport (in so far as they say anything about figure skating at all) point out not only the fancy costumes and the pretty music (the emperor Nero won gold medals at early Olympics in the sport of singing), but also the judging, which in spite of all our effotrs still strikes many casual observers – those sillies --as sort of like the judging of a pie-baking contest. (We, of course, know better.)

It is absolutely art in my humble opinion, AND a sport as well.

I see my favorite skaters and programs and their artistry gives me goosebumps, same as when I listen to a fabulous interpretation of a classical music piece, same as now watching extraordinary versions of solos I used to dance during my ballet career.

People are free to call it whatever they please, but to me that's pure art.

 

[icewhite]

My take on this question is this. Is figure skating an art? Is it a sport? These are questions about the definitions of words, not really about figure skating per se.

Is figure skating a flib? Is it a floob? Is it a flibbity floob or a floobity flib? Either way, it is what it is. We will not induce sculptors to become figure skating fans by calling it an art. We will not recruit any rugby fans by pointing out how sporty it is.

I agree it's more about words, and I don't care if people call it art if they have a certain understanding of art, but the problems evolve when people then start from this: "it's art" and use this as an argument to not define the bullet points exactly, leave the judging deliberately open in some aspects because "it's art and it is always subjective/ cannot be judged".

 

[moonvine]

What about exhibitions and tours? Are they sport or art?

 

[el henry]

I agree it's more about words, and I don't care if people call it art if they have a certain understanding of art, but the problems evolve when people then start from this: "it's art" and use this as an argument to not define the bullet points exactly, leave the judging deliberately open in some aspects because "it's art and it is always subjective/ cannot be judged".

But it IS subjective. That doesn't mean it can't be judged. But that one judge may see performance one way and another judge may see performance another way. How do you come up with meaningful bullet points? You don't.

That in no way takes away from the "sport". All sports have subjective elements. My beloved Eagles lost (arguably) the Super Bowl due to a last minute subjective call by a referee.

Figure skating has more subjective elements than football. But that in no way makes it less of a sport.

 

[4everchan]

But it IS subjective. That doesn't mean it can't be judged. But that one judge may see performance one way and another judge may see performance another way. How do you come up with meaningful bullet points? You don't.

That in no way takes away from the "sport". All sports have subjective elements. My beloved Eagles lost (arguably) the Super Bowl due to a last minute subjective call by a referee.

Figure skating has more subjective elements than football. But that in no way makes it less of a sport.

It IS NOT entirely subjective. (I deliberately used the IS NOT in reply to your post since we had been using I think it is or I believe it is not) until then )

 

[4everchan]

What about exhibitions and tours? Are they sport or art?

See... this is where for me, it CAN be different.. .when the intent is solely the performance, then it may become performing arts... It doesn't mean that the tricks executed are not technical... Like going to Cirque du Soleil... Intent or context for me, is one of the things that makes a difference

 

[4everchan]

PS... So, maybe we can all agree that this is semantics but the debate is extremely vital in seeking better judging systems for figure skating, the sport... because clearly, we don't need a judging system to tell us what kind of performance captivates us right?

I guess with the new season starting slowly, we will have way too much on our plates for these conversations. Thanks nevertheless.

I will be going to pairs and dance at Championnats québécois d'été next weekend ..... Watch out for my reports in the appropriate thread (summer competitions)

 

[el henry]

It IS NOT entirely subjective. (I deliberately used the IS NOT in reply to your post since we had been using I think it is or I believe it is not) until then )

I did not mean to say the judging was entirely subjective.

I meant to say those elements were subjective. Even if we give bullet points, they are still subjective (Hence the "quad bonus" for performance scores, I don't think the subjectivity is always beneficial to "my" skaters.). Are we saying the same thing, maybe? In any event, that subjectivity does not, for me, make it less "sporting" than football (my other big sporting fandom).

Whatever is the case, I am looking forward to the reports from CQÉ, and am envious.

 

[4everchan]

Whatever is the case, I am looking forward to the reports from CQÉ, and am envious.

live streaming available for free....

 

[el henry]

live streaming available for free....

Even better. Still, live reports are a treat and I don't take them for granted.

 

[Mathman]

What about exhibitions and tours? Are they sport or art?

Clearly sport.

Definition: Sport, from the verb "disport" -- to divert and entertain onesself from the toils and trials of the daily grind. From Latin portare = to carry (away).

 

[gkelly]

PS... So, maybe we can all agree that this is semantics but the debate is extremely vital in seeking better judging systems for figure skating, the sport... because clearly, we don't need a judging system to tell us what kind of performance captivates us right?

I guess with the new season starting slowly, we will have way too much on our plates for these conversations. Thanks nevertheless.
read (summer competitions)

How judging systems for skating (past and present real ones, and imagined potential changes) fascinate me. I would love to have this conversation -- why not now, while still in the off-season?

I did not mean to say the judging was entirely subjective.

I meant to say those elements were subjective. Even if we give bullet points, they are still subjective

Anything that is qualitative (e.g., if the bullet point calls for something to be "good") will be subject to individual perception. Or, really, anything that can't be measured or counted. In that sense, we can call it "subjective."

And many of the component bullet points do also ask judges to synthesize many perceptions into an overall understanding of what the skater has accomplished regarding that aspect of the whole program, as well as to understand what the wording of the bullet point is asking for, and to translate those evaluations into the 1-10 numerical scale.

There will necessarily be disagreements between equally expert individuals doing their best to apply the criteria as honestly and specifically as possible. Which is why we don't see identical numbers from all judges for the same component, and thus why it takes a whole panel to come up with a consensus score.

I'd love to discuss specifics if anyone is interested in that conversation.

In general, expert judges will do a better job/have more agreement with each other than "expert" fans* or less experienced trained judges, and all of the above will do better than casual fans who don't really understand the technique or the criteria.

(*It would be interesting to see how a variety of knowledgeable fans would score skaters they're unfamiliar with, without influence of preconceptions. I predict wider numerical ranges than from a typical official panel.)

(Hence the "quad bonus" for performance scores, I don't think the subjectivity is always beneficial to "my" skaters.).

Unintentional bias toward specific skaters or perhaps toward the fact of including cutting-edge jumps is "noise" that interferes with the "signal" of perfect application of the criteria. Even the most expert, most honest officials are still human beings, subject to psychological effects of familiarity, expectations, fatigue, etc.

Personally, I'm more interested in looking at the actual criteria, how they can be subject to interpretation, how they can best be applied, and so forth. What would ideal application of the current criteria look like?

Are there ways that the rules or the criteria could be changed to minimize noise/interference by external factors so that officials would be able to apply the criteria even more expertly?

(And are there ways to convey the criteria more clearly to observers, or perhaps to the judges themselves?)

 

[Mathman]

I agree it's more about words, and I don't care if people call it art if they have a certain understanding of art, but the problems evolve when people then start from this: "it's art" and use this as an argument to not define the bullet points exactly, leave the judging deliberately open in some aspects because "it's art and it is always subjective/ cannot be judged".

I don't think anyone would disagree with this.

At the same time, I think we cut off our nose to spite our face if we ignore (much less ridicule) the view expressed by @LolainJapan in post #26 above. Figure skating is an art because it gives me goosebumps. Goosebumps good, an extra quarter-point in the IJS protocols -- OK, whatever.

What is most interesting to me is that the poster who nexpressed this view of skating is a Kamila Valieva fan -- a huge-tech skater.

 

[Mathman]

Personally, I'm more interested in looking at the actual criteria, how they can be subject to interpretation, how they can best be applied, and so forth. What would ideal application of the current criteria look like?

Are there ways that the rules or the criteria could be changed to minimize noise/interference by external factors so that officials would be able to apply the criteria even more expertly?

(And are there ways to convey the criteria more clearly to observers, or perhaps to the judges themselves?)

I think that I form a minority of one in that I think the ISU has done an admirably professional job of taking criteria that are nebulous and ill-defined on their face and coming up with language that pins them down in a useful way. It is, or course, a lot of fun to have heated arguments about whether the point value of a triple Salcow should be changed from 4.5 to 4.3. But overall, I thnk that they have done a yeoman's job at stringing words together that collectively tighten the grip on judging what we mean by matching choreographic movement to the intent and character of the miusic, and so on.

 

[Mathman]

And just for fun, since you mention American football often, guess what, they have "choreo' elements as well... When the quarterback selects a play, he sends his player to specific spots on the field. When well executed, he is able to throw the ball to a specific receiver.... You may call that "a play" but it is still a series of choreographic elements I guess that's why you and "your friends" enjoy football so much as its roots are deeply artistic

Kind of a stretch, right? In American football the most beautifully choreographed play in the world doesn't amount to a hill of beans unless it scores a touchdown. No style points awarded -- hey, is this a sport or a stroll through an art museum?

In figure skating, for good or evil, there are these wretched PCSs that just won't go away.