The Case for Handwork: Balancing Art and Sport in Figure Skating | Page 5 | Golden Skate

The Case for Handwork: Balancing Art and Sport in Figure Skating

Isn't breakdancing making its debut as an Olympic sport in Paris?

And is it not a performing art?
The old codgers who oversee the Olympics are always looking for ways to interest young people. This form of street dancing from the 1980s is 40 years behind the times, but it fits in with Olympic sports like mogul skiing and half-pipe skate boarding.

All is grist that comes to our mill. I wish that circus acts like trapeze and lion-taming were Olympoic sports. (The latter in a sort of last-man standing format.)
 
When googling, I found this old (2012!) post about some of then then applicants for Olympic sport standing...

Sheep shearing. Now you're talking.
My great uncle Ole was the champion sack-sewer of Spokane County, Washington a century ago. Sack-sewing goes like this. You have to fill a gunny sack with peas and then hold it (90 pounds) under one arm while you dfelicately sew up the top with neat, clean stitches with your free hand. A strength sport with an artistic component.
 
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Isn't breakdancing making its debut as an Olympic sport in Paris?
Here is some info.


There are a bunch of categories of moves (top rock, freeze, down rock, including power moves etc) for the judges to evaluate, so yes, there are elements of creativity and subjectivity but also very clear technical content.

But more importantly, the competition is organized in throw downs... so though there are elements of subjectivity, it is pretty much a "ranking" type of judgment where one breaker is put ahead of their direct competitor. I would assume it may be clearer to evaluate breakers in a duel format rather than give them marks that will have to take into account the entire field.

Imagine figure skating going in throw downs? :)
 
Imagine figure skating going in throw downs? :)
Well, the old 6.0 ordinal system was something of "group throwdawn." Several skaters would perform and the judges would say, this one did the best, that one second best, etc.

One year they tried something of a throwndown approach in the grand prix final. After the preliminary rounds the #1 and #2 skaters (Michelle Kwan and Irina Slutskaya) squared off mano-a-mano against each other in an extra LP performance, while #3 and #4 fought it out for the bronze.

It was also tried in various pro competitions and cheesefests. In a 2005 event Johnny Weir held off Matt Savoie in men, while Michelle Kwan polled ahead of Sasha Cohen in ladies. The ironic thing is that in actuality Savoie and Cohen totally crushed their respective oponents, and were awarded the unanimous votes of all the judges (Dick Biutton, Peter Carrothers and someone else). But the medals were detern]mined by on-line audience votes.
 
Back to the original article, I am hard-pressed to see what his beef actually is through the haze of fine-sounding words, since the only current skaters he chooses to hold up for artistic applause are in fact being well and truly rewarded for what they do?

I've been wondering the same but then, since he appreciates Nathan Chen who wouldn't be the first skater to come to people's mind as an "artistic" one, I suppose this is actually mostly about lower level skaters, or at least that's where he's coming from with his views.
 
Well, the old 6.0 ordinal system was something of "group throwdawn." Several skaters would perform and the judges would say, this one did the best, that one second best, etc.

One year they tried something of a throwndown approach in the grand prix final. After the preliminary rounds the #1 and #2 skaters (Michelle Kwan and Irina Slutskaya) squared off mano-a-mano against each other in an extra LP performance, while #3 and #4 fought it out for the bronze.
I won't talk about pro competitions ;) 6.0 is already something I do not like to talk about LOL... but yeah, I am aware that the ordinal ranking was sort of doing that but it was still in a large group format as you said, and still both scores, technical and "artistic impression" or "presentation" were added. And with the 9 judges, the ordinals could vary quite a lot and create some unexpected results...

The duel format throwdown for break dancing implies that there will be several rounds ... and since it's breaker 1 vs breaker 2, the "ordinal" ranking has a different vibe here.
Also, if there are 32 breakers, it will take 5 rounds to get the winner. I suspect that each duel throwdown will not last 4 minutes for each breaker like a LP. It's probably a very condensed 60-90 second stint.
PS forgot to mention : the Japanese breaker on the video mentions that the judging system for the Olympics was created to help the viewers understand the results :)

EDIT : I read a bit further and watched some videos.

a throwdown is made of 3 uninterrupted short rounds where the breakers alternate, improvising on a pretty standard music...
judges vote for each round and the winner is declared at the end of the 3 rounds. A duel lasts about 5 minutes in total.

There will be 16 breakers at the games... so 4 stages. It's interesting to watch the different styles of breaking and how they can bring in variety from round to round.

I watched a few : I would say that my success rate at picking a winner, just based on let's say, my goosebumps, was 50-50
 
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But it IS subjective. That doesn't mean it can't be judged. But that one judge may see performance one way and another judge may see performance another way. How do you come up with meaningful bullet points? You don't.

That in no way takes away from the "sport". All sports have subjective elements. My beloved Eagles lost (arguably) the Super Bowl due to a last minute subjective call by a referee.

Figure skating has more subjective elements than football. But that in no way makes it less of a sport.
Exactly, bullet points kill artistry and originality. See balance beam in gymnastics as an example. One of the bullet points is side choreography and it doesn't actually make any routine more artistic.
 
Okay, so I will try to elobarate a bit on what changes I would like to see in the rules, what can be done.

As I have said before I really like the current system. It's not perfect, but I see it as a very strong attempt, and it's the execution and evaluation I am not okay with. The consequences of what happens when a score isn't actually in line with these rules - you can come up with the best rules, if the referees or judges don't keep to them and there are no consequences unless one jumps out of line, but not if the all pretty much make the same mistakes, then these rules are, well, only worth so much.

Anyway, the stated bullet points within the PCS are simply worded much too vague. Apparently this is not just done because it can't be any different, but also to please the people who don't want fs to be a "number's game".
What exactly does for instance "expressiveness and projection" mean? I am not talking about how this can actually be measured in numbers in a very concrete way, by the human eye and body or technology, but to find the very concrete factors that need to be measured and looked at.
The way I understand it expressiveness also means intensity - it means extension, means body tension and the change of body tension in line with the course of the music. It means looking in the right direction regarding the music and program, and not just looking at how much space there is left to jump and where to jump. It means balancing the weight of the body according to this, and not randomly or to only help balance in order not to fall.
So I would like to see some of these words in the component description, just so that everyone knows what we are talking about. Or you can give better definitions or explanations, but the point for me is to make the component as tight and clear as possible, so that everyone is on the same page when we judge a performance. If everyone is allowed to have their own understanding of "expressiveness" then the discussion is not about "but how do we measure this practically", but we leave it very open to actual subjective ideas.

Let's for instance take Kurakova's typical programs, maybe her Chaplin one. I wouldn't want to argue about whether she has expressed the tragedy enough, whether her slight slapstick approach was too light and lovely - although I will (for instance in this forum) comment on aspects like this one, just as I will talk about costumes a lot, I don't think it's the judges' job to score the costumes or such questions of interpretation and intent.
What they should judge on the other hand is how much her body tension and direction was in line with the music, whether she skated with intensity throughout, whether she was struggling with balance or keeping concentration in any way, whether her speed slowed down before a jump simply because she needed to focus on the jump or whether she slowed down when there was a hint in the music to do so.
This point will also be a factor of "musical sensitivity". But what exactly does musical sensitivity mean?
Does it mean that the judges should decide whether this interpretation of Madame Butterfly or Anna Karenina was convincing as a creative concept? The way that critics judge theatre plays? Definitely not. If that was the case I would score, as a judge all those rather sexist or even racist programs (I'm thinking of some Sheherezade programs...) very low in PCS... but as a figure skating judge I would and should simply ignore that. As a sports' judge I should instead judge whether the musical parameters have been transferred into adequate body movement - meaning the degree to which they have been ignored or not. Same goes for composition.

It should not be the judges' job to decide whether a program actually captures the "intent" of the music as an artistic concept, as much as I, as a viewer, would like the skater to do so, just as I, as a viewer, would like certain costumes instead of a generic colour shaded shirt, or whether they come up with a concept that I find pleasing from an intellectual point of view (did they find a new and creative way to deal with the question of patriarchy in this piece... is it historically correct... :unsure: :unsure: ) but whether they matched the energy level etc. of the music, kept the tempo, didn't ignore the beats, transferred the change in amplitude etc.

I don't think this is really a big problem, though. Judges usually already score that way, although I think up to a degree there are such subconscious feelings and thoughts about an "adequate" program or preferences, which play a role when they shouldn't. It could help to make it clearer that these feelings don't belong in judging instead of leaving the door wide open with a wording that invites such feelings.
 
To me the question of whether PCS are undervalued in comparison to the TES is something entirely else.
I think in this regard last season was a step into the right direction.
Still, I wouldn't mind a light adjustment of some base values or a higher possible PCS to keep up with the higher tech that's more commonly done today.
Not sure if that is necessary, though. I suppose strict ruling on prerotations, take-offs, URs and jump technique would decrease the number of extreme jumps we see a lot... many quads would simply not be quads anymore...

Basically this is not a question of "is the sport artistic enough, is there enough art in the sport, is it art etc", but whether bad or wrong or sloppy or cheating technique is punished by the judging system, and I think, yes of course everything should be done to make people execute the elements and movements cleanly.
 
I've been wondering the same but then, since he appreciates Nathan Chen who wouldn't be the first skater to come to people's mind as an "artistic" one, I suppose this is actually mostly about lower level skaters, or at least that's where he's coming from with his views.
It did occur to me while out that just maybe this is an oblique reply to Ari Zakarian's recent complaints that quads were not sufficiently rewarded and are the key to making skating great again?

No, probably not, but it's a fun idea.
 
... Anyway, the stated bullet points within the PCS are simply worded much too vague. Apparently this is not just done because it can't be any different, but also to please the people who don't want fs to be a "number's game".
What exactly does for instance "expressiveness and projection" mean? I am not talking about how this can actually be measured in numbers in a very concrete way, by the human eye and body or technology, but to find the very concrete factors that need to be measured and looked at.
The way I understand it expressiveness also means intensity - it means extension, means body tension and the change of body tension in line with the course of the music. It means looking in the right direction regarding the music and program, and not just looking at how much space there is left to jump and where to jump. It means balancing the weight of the body according to this, and not randomly or to only help balance in order not to fall.
So I would like to see some of these words in the component description, just so that everyone knows what we are talking about. ...
*whole post*

I wonder if some of the clarifying language that you ask for is already provided in judges' manuals that go into finer detail than does the overview that is available to the general public. Or if such taking points are the subjects of judges' seminars.
 
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I find this article disingenuous. It would be much better if the author openly stated his thoughts, and did not try to get around sharp corners, demonstrating his refined artistic nature. What exactly he proposes is unclear. Increase subjectivity in the scoring process? This is a strange proposal, because all scandals are invariably connected with the subjectivity of judges. And pointing here only to the PCS is a gross mistake. Calculating the GOE is no less subjective, although this is a part of TES.

What’s a spectator to think when a performance that makes the hairs on the back of their neck stand up and the skater comes in fifth?

a lot of viewers in the world, and their opinions often do not coincide. One viewer has the hair on the back of his head stand with emotion, while the other remains completely indifferent - and then what? Shall we organize global opinion polls to determine the winners? And who specifically would the author want to pull from fifth place to first? It is unlikely that he wants Jason Brown ahead of Nathan Chen. Moreover, Nathan Chen is mentioned as an example of a "good" skater. The "bad and wrong" figure skater, who is as far from high art as possible, is described in the article in this way:

97 pound teenager jump into the air and rotate 4 times in just over a half a second

In general, he means Russian girls capable of performing quadruple jumps - I think everyone understands this very well. I would like to remind the author that men have been performing quads since the 80s. That is, when he was a child and was watching TV in 1992, for some reason it did not seem to him that "acts of amazing athleticism" can destroy art in figure skating. But now, looking at the girls from Russia, he thinks differently. Well, what is it? Sexism? Or, scary to say, Russophobia?

It is noteworthy that the "good skater" Nathan Chen built his career on increasing the technical complexity of the programs. He was even reproached for this once. That is, he can be called the "big brother" for Trusova and Shcherbakova. The author could have named Yuzuru Hanyu, who is more artistic, but he chose Nathan as a good example. And this brings me to the final conclusion: everything is fine with men's figure skating in the USA - and therefore the author is quite satisfied with technical skating. But in women's figure skating in the United States, everything is so bad that it remains only to look for ways that would allow athletes to be pulled from fifth place to first, speculating on "high art". Apparently, according to modern ideas, Leonardo da Vinci is not at all obliged to be able to draw and mix paints - all this is a base technique that is not remembered.
 
Anyway, the stated bullet points within the PCS are simply worded much too vague. Apparently this is not just done because it can't be any different, but also to please the people who don't want fs to be a "number's game".
*whole post*

I wonder if some of the clarifying lasnguage that you ask for is already provided in judges' manuals that go into finer detail than does the overview that is available to the general public. Or if such taking points are the subjects of judges' seminars.
https://www.skatinginbc.com/sites/default/files/pages-resources/new-program-components/threepcs-keyreminders-2022.pdf


I'm not sure where/whether this information is published by the ISU, but it is out there. Do these more detailed explanations help in understanding what they intend by the various short phrases in the official public communication?

And of course judges can discuss in detail with more experienced judges (ISU committee members, referees) during judge training, and with each other in the officials room before/after events. And can communicate directly to coaches and skaters during critiques. But it's not really feasible to publish all those conversations to the public at large.

There are videos from judge training sessions that I linked to in previous threads, most recently in this thread, which focused on Skating Skills. Also here.

Try searching youtube for "ISU program components explanations" or similar terms to find at least the older videos about the 5 components.

It may not be easy for members of the general public to find the information, but judges are getting a lot fuller explanations than what gets boiled down into the chart on the yearly ISU Communication (2558 this year for Singles and Pairs, 2569 for Ice Dance).
 
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While I visit the forum often, I haven't made time to post. But I want to say how much I enjoy these conversations, thank you everybody for your time and contribution!
About the "article" that started this particular thread, in my understanding it is a post from a private blog, it is not an article. It doesn't "read" to me as a conclusion or expert's opinion, but more as thoughts as we all here have.

My 2 cents on the subject is that figure skating is part sport and part art, if we accept the general definition of art, I think it would be also fair to call it an artistic sport.
 
Moonvine this doesn’t hold a candle to this topic discussion in art history seminars…. Or, the dense “art speak” in publications like ArtNews and Artforum.. I am dying reading thru the comments..

I studied art history and I don't know what exactly you mean.
 
https://www.skatinginbc.com/sites/default/files/pages-resources/new-program-components/threepcs-keyreminders-2022.pdf


I'm not sure where/whether this information is published by the ISU, but it is out there. Do these more detailed explanations help in understanding what they intend by the various short phrases in the official public communication?

And of course judges can discuss in detail with more experienced judges (ISU committee members, referees) during judge training, and with each other in the officials room before/after events. And can communicate directly to coaches and skaters during critiques. But it's not really feasible to publish all those conversations to the public at large.

There are videos from judge training sessions that I linked to in previous threads, most recently in this thread, which focused on Skating Skills. Also here.

Try searching youtube for "ISU program components explanations" or similar terms to find at least the older videos about the 5 components.

It may not be easy for members of the general public to find the information, but judges are getting a lot fuller explanations than what gets boiled down into the chart on the yearly ISU Communication (2558 this year for Singles and Pairs, 2569 for Ice Dance).

I based my thoughts on the first document you linked.
I don't know all videos and I'm sure not familiar with the inside knowledge that judges have or what happens in their workshops but I do know some videos which explain a bit more, but apart from skating skills I don't find them very helpful in these regards. I think skating skills are explained more in detail, but especially concerning performance I haven't yet seen very detailed or clear explanations.
 
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