The Case for Handwork: Balancing Art and Sport in Figure Skating

[TallyT]

Yea art is clearly more intrinsic to the global identity of some countries more than others. Thats not even a controversial statement.

Even if I agreed with that - which I don't, and also don't see what 'global' has to do with anything - that has nothing to do with whether they are artistically sophisticated (except that neither judgement is in any way objective).

 

[Mathematician]

Even if I agreed with that - which I don't, and also don't see what 'global' has to do with anything - that has nothing to do with whether they are artistically sophisticated (except that neither judgement is in any way objective).

I wasnt talking about the sophistication of any country in that comment. I was explaining Google search results. Lol. So yea, thats also why "global" has literally everything to do with it.

 

[Mathman]

I am 100% sure there's plenty of things you've considered art in your life which go against your idea of innovation

"Innovation" or originality -- I wouldn't be so quick to discount it. You could make a copy of the Mona Lisa that was so accurate that it would fool all but the most thorough of art detectives. With modern technology, you might be able to fool them, too.

The real Mona Lisa is worth a hundred million dollars. The identical fakes are worth zero.

 

[Mathematician]

"Innovation" or originality -- I wouldn't be so quick to discount it. You could make a copy of the Mona Lisa that was so accurate that it would fool all but the most thorough of art detectives. With modern technology, you might be able to fool them, too.

The real Mona Lisa is worth a hundred million dollars. The identical fakes are worth zero.

Originality is a separate concept. You can be original in the way you present art even with the exact same elements as someone else. Just like you can make an original painting with the exact same palette as someone else. Nobody in figure skating is literally doing the exact same sequence of elements to the same song in the same dress. So yea you have a point but thats not at all a useful argument against figure skating being art.

 

[TallyT]

I wasnt talking about the sophistication of any country in that comment. I was explaining Google search results. Lol. So yea, thats also why "global" has literally everything to do with it.

But your original claim was that Italy is more artistically sophisticated and you've brought all this is presumably to support that rather handwavy claim.

In any case, we have gotten waaaay off the topic again...

 

[Mathematician]

But your original claim was that Italy is more artistically sophisticated

No it wasn't. I went back and looked.

 

[Mathman]

So yea you have a point but thats not at all a useful argument against figure skating being art.

? Actually, I was not making an argument for or against figure skating being labelled art or not beling so labelled, useful or not. I think we have moved on from that unproductive semantic self-flagellation.

 

[TallyT]

No it wasn't. I went back and looked.

My apologies, Mathman googled and found it, and you said you would agree with caveats.

Anyway... back to figure skating!

Can exhibition pieces and ice shows, which do not need the competitive aspect of the sport, be made into 'art'?

 

[Mathematician]

Actually, I was not making an argument for or against figure skating being labelled art or not beling so labelled, useful or not.

I know, I was just making it clear the distinction in general to other readers why your defence of originality as a prerequisite to art shouldn't validate the earlier arguments that innovation is a prerequisite to art. And, why it has nothing to do with figure skating's validity as art, because your Mona Lisa example did not correlate to figure skating programs containing ubiquitous elements, which was the original argument against the art of figure skating.

 

[icewhite]

Yea art is clearly more intrinsic to the global identity of some countries more than others. Thats not even a controversial statement. Now you're just seeing anything I say through some argumentative filter but that was the most normal statement ever.

Eh, no, it's not the most normal.
If you are talking about the fact that people tend to think of culture when they think of certain countries - like Italy, which is often associated immediately with the renaissance etc., that is due to the amount of artworks that can be seen in that country and the preference of people to visit these artworks. But these preferences usually have their root in a certain canon - a canon that has often been defined in the 18th or 19th century by people from certain countries. It was very popular to travel to Italy to visit the culture, while some other art around the world or even in the own country wasn't considered art but only exotic or cult objects or was disregarded for other reasons.
It tells us a lot about the people who came up with such a canon and their ideas and mindset and not much about the prevalence of art itself.
Of course to make art you need some basic economic security and free time, even "a room of your own", if you are busy with surviving all day it is difficult to impossible to do art. Insofar the economic situation can lead to differences in countries. Apart from that I absolutely reject your claim.

 

[icewhite]

I know, I was just making it clear the distinction in general to other readers why your defence of originality as a prerequisite to art shouldn't validate the earlier arguments that innovation is a prerequisite to art. And, why it has nothing to do with figure skating's validity as art, because your Mona Lisa example did not correlate to figure skating programs containing ubiquitous elements, which was the original argument against the art of figure skating.

Who has even made the claim about the ubiquitous elements? Have I overread that?

 

[Mathman]

Is cooking an art? Fashion designing?

I have a cousin who is a Hollywood costumer. I often see her name in the end credits of movies about werewolves or creatures from outer space. I am quite certain that she regards herself as an artist, but maybe she is a mere cratsperson.

 

[4everchan]

Is cooking an art? Fashion designing?

I have a cousin who is a Hollywood costumer. I often see her name in the end credits of movies about werewolves or creatures from outer space. I am quite certain that she regards herself as an artist, but maybe she is a nere cratsperson.

Don't forget basketweaving .
More seriously, the discussion about what is art came because of the blog post saying there was a need to balance art and sport right ? However, it seems that some people see art very loosely and others do not. So at this point, the discussion is circular. The reason why some wished figure skating to be seen more like a sport is that some of the "artistic" components are harder to judge.
I watch diving almost just as much as I watch figure skating. It is a judged sport of course. If we were to agree (not saying we are) that figure skating is art, then diving could just as well be art. Why is it that judging in diving is so much less controversial? Is it because diving's judging focuses more on the athletic features of the sport than on its "artistic" side?

 

[Mathman]

Don't forget basketweaving

This one is dear to my heart. Basketweaving was one of the "Me" (pronounced "may") of ancient Mesopotamia. These were the collection of gifts from the gods that form the cornerstones of civilization.

The Me were kept by Enki, the god of Wisdom and Magic, at his base in Eridu (likely the home of the original Tower of Babel). Inanna, the goddess of beauty and sexuality, seduced Enki, stole his Me and made off up the Euphrates River (aided by her brother Utu, the Sun God) to her own city of Uruk. From that day on, Uruk rose to become the dominant city of the region, while Eridu declined and was eventually forgotten.

Here they are, memorialized in this exquisite work of art, a roll-out of the Adda cylindrical seal (about 2200 BCE). It shows Inanna (center) with Enki (in profile, the Tigris and Euphrates flowing from his shoulders), the sun god rising between two mountains at the bottom. The cuneiform writing at the upper left says, this is the personal seal of the scribe Adda.

Now, is that art or what?!

https://i.etsystatic.com/9437220/r/il/604beb/1548642393/il_fullxfull.1548642393_4m80.jpg

 

[4everchan]

This one is dear to my heart. Basketweaving was one of the "Me" (pronounced "may") of ancient Mesopotamia. These were the collection of gifts from the gods that form the cornerstones of civilization.

The Me were kept by Enki the god of Wisdom and Magic at his base in Eridu (likely the home of the original Tower of Bable). Inanna, the goddess of beauty and sexuality, seduced Enki, stole his Me and made off up the Euphrates River (aided by her brother Utu the Sun God) to her own city of Uruk. From that day on, Uruk rose to become the dominant city of the region, while Eridu declined and was eventually forgotten.

Here they are, memorialized in this exquisite work of art, a roll-out of the Adda cylindrical seal (about 2200 BCE). It shows Inanna (center) with Enki (in profile, the Tigris and Euphates flowing from his shoulders), the sun god rising between two mountains at the bottom. The cuneiform writing at the upper left says, this is the personal seal of the scribe Adda.

Now, is that art or what?!

https://i.etsystatic.com/9437220/r/il/604beb/1548642393/il_fullxfull.1548642393_4m80.jpg

I think you have mastered the art of thread drift indeed
I was sincerely trying to steer back the conversation to the topic... but maybe it's run its course anyways.

 

[Mathman]

I was sincerely trying to steer back the conversation to the topic... but maybe it's run its course anyway

I think it has. On the general topic" What is art?",some people (you, for instance) have more exacting criteria, while others cast a wider net, seeing opportunities for esthetic experience everywhere.

On the specific question, what can the figure skating community do to acheive the optimal balance between atheltic derring-do and performance values, we are long on bombast and short on useful ideas.

 

[el henry]

Maybe one skater's perspective and choice of words can serve for discussion?

Although of course if anyone is unnecessarily mean to Jason (and I don't mean disagreement, he could be right, he could be wrong) the old lady cyber cane is to the ready

The whole point of our sport is self-expression – that it's art and that you're blending artistry and athleticism and you're creating a performance.

and somewhat related:

... I've gotten so defeated because I felt like, "Well if I can't keep up with that narrative or that direction, then there isn't a spot for me in the sport, or there's no hope for me moving forward or nobody's going to care about the program I bring forth." You start to compare in a way that's destructive versus helpful. I think that perfect balance is being able to be in a position where you can learn from people and aspire to be like them and be inspired by them, but not compare yourself where you start to be like, "Well they're here and I'm there."

Jason Brown: To My Younger Self - U.S. Figure Skating

When Jason Brown returned to competitive skating for the first time following the 2022 Olympic Winter Games, part of the excitement for him was competing with the

usfigureskatingfanzone.com

 

[4everchan]

Maybe one skater's perspective and choice of words can serve for discussion?

Although of course if anyone is unnecessarily mean to Jason (and I don't mean disagreement, he could be right, he could be wrong) the old lady cyber cane is to the ready

The whole point of our sport is self-expression – that it's art and that you're blending artistry and athleticism and you're creating a performance.

and somewhat related:

... I've gotten so defeated because I felt like, "Well if I can't keep up with that narrative or that direction, then there isn't a spot for me in the sport, or there's no hope for me moving forward or nobody's going to care about the program I bring forth." You start to compare in a way that's destructive versus helpful. I think that perfect balance is being able to be in a position where you can learn from people and aspire to be like them and be inspired by them, but not compare yourself where you start to be like, "Well they're here and I'm there."

Jason Brown: To My Younger Self - U.S. Figure Skating

When Jason Brown returned to competitive skating for the first time following the 2022 Olympic Winter Games, part of the excitement for him was competing with the

usfigureskatingfanzone.com

I won't be mean to Jason so no need for the cane... but he has a different perspective in the sense that he is probably not aiming to be world champion. Patrick at first didn't want to add on difficulty to his program (pre sochi)... but upon his return was pretty conflicted.

Patrick had issues with upgrading his content. He felt that two quads and one 3a was just perfect : these jumps require a longer set-up which removes time to do other things in the program, taking away from the composition which meant a lot for him.

When he returned, he added a triple axel. He then learned a quad salchow (he already was able to do this jump way earlier, I think as early as 2013 but didn't feel it was necessary for him.... that was his mistake of course for Sochi... ).

Prior to the games (2018) he did a small competition in which he did a SP with two quads... and he was planning to have 5 quads over the course of both SP and LP. And then, he got into a funk and decided he would aim to skate clean and removed a bunch of tougher jumps... In the end, it did and didn't work out for him... It did work out for the team event where he earned 18/20 points possible for Canada... in the singles event, his lower content and mistakes = 9th place.

Perhaps nowadays, skaters can have 5 quads in the LP with less preparation and not sacrifice any of the composition/choreography. I don't know. But it is a topic that was discussed at large by Patrick..

Of course, I am writing all of this by memory... Maybe I remember things erroneously .


But here is one article (I decided to ask my friend Google if my memory served me well).

Focus on quads turns skating into ‘slam dunk’ contest, Patrick Chan says

After an 18-month hiatus, Canada’s three-time world champion is dismayed to return to find his sport dominated by quadruple jumps

www.theglobeandmail.com

Chan said. "I will be dead honest, I think with my experience and credibility at this point, I can say already with the men doing three quads, the quality of skating is diminished."

The quad, Chan explained, requires so much set up, with no room for intricate footwork.

"So what's happening, and what you're going to end up seeing is just people moseying down the ice and setting up for a quad…,he said. "So four times, that's already 2 1/2 minutes of the long program taken up."

and another article

https://www.cbc.ca/sports/olympics/winter/figure-skating/patrick-chan-fewer-quads-skate-canada-1.4367097

So for now, Chan said his goal is to focus on delivering a strong performance — minus a couple of quads.

"It's not so much even just the quality, it's more what I want to do and what I love to do, and that is the actual performance," he said.

In any case, of course skaters will see their sport as art... boxers do too btw
For them, it could be the dedication, the sacrifices, the time, money and energy spent, the passion : all of these are required for athletes as well as artists.. So yes, my personal vision of art is much narrower than some as I see it as the traditional definition of fine arts as pure disciplines, but I do understand where some skaters and some fans come from. I am not preaching at all when I share my opinion about it... everyone is free to think whatever they want, just like even Patrick Chan and Jason Brown will not convince me that figure skating is art They don't need to do so for me to enjoy their skating.

Disclaimer, if anyone bashes Patrick, I know where @el henry bought her cane and will buy a few myself. I certainly didn't bring up Patrick's comments, which may be controversial to some, in order to get him demolished by anti-Chan fans. Patrick retired 5 years ago and his comments reflect his thoughts at a particular time... no need to get into this please.

 

[Blades of Passion]

I watch diving almost just as much as I watch figure skating. It is a judged sport of course. If we were to agree (not saying we are) that figure skating is art, then diving could just as well be art. Why is it that judging in diving is so much less controversial? Is it because diving's judging focuses more on the athletic features of the sport than on its "artistic" side?

Diving could NOT just as well be art. There is no performance in diving. Art is about emotional and intellectual expression, in a way that is heightened from normalcy. Skating allows for storytelling, for deep personal expressionism, it has an entire canvass to paint on. It's not possible to do that in diving, where the only thing available is doing a single jump in a direct line from point A to point B, while constantly twisting your body, making it impossible to express much of anything.

 

[Mathematician]

making it impossible to express much of anything.

Not agreeing or disagree with you at this moment, but dont doubt a talented artist. The word impossible is very strong here.