The Case for Handwork: Balancing Art and Sport in Figure Skating

[Mathman]

The sport could be "butched up" and "objectified" from now until next Thursday and they (football fans) will never watch.

So why try to attract people who can't be attracted?

I believe that this is 100% correct. The contention that figure skating will become more popular or less popular with the general public if we raise or lower the PCSs, if we insert more or fewer quads into the game, if we replace judges with tech specialists or change from ordinal judging to code of points judging -- well, these matters are of interest only to people who are already into figure skating.

 

[icewhite]

I think the people who are want to see big guys running into each other will never be attracted to figure skating, but there are others who might be - and who are not.
I am thinking of teenagers and young people who love to do and watch dance routines, who have a more or less competitive mind, who like sports and working out.. there are many of them... But are they attracted to figure skating? Does figure skating want to attract them? Usually no.

 

[Mathman]

Nah, that's sport with a direct opponent, but there's a million sports which work differently. Would you say long jumping is not a real sport because the competitors are jumping one after the other, without direct contact of the opponent?

I think one could make that claim. In long jumping the athlete conmpetes, not against an opponent, but against a tape measure (yawn). To make it a real sport, you would have to allow the other competitors to tackle the jumper in mid flight.

Like boxing. The objective is to batter your opponent into unconsciousness with your fists nbefore he can do it to you. It would not be much or a sport if the boxers merely beat up on stop watches and measuring sticks.

 

[4everchan]

Oh, no, I never said what he said was controversial. I just think it shows how pointless this discussion really is as it is all about words, and pretty vaguely defined ones, too, and the ever changing meanings we assign to them. If someone you do not like says skating is an art, or partly an art, you understand it one way and say it is wrong and pretentious. If it is someone you tend to agree with in general, you assume he meant something else and is obviously right, and there is nothing contradictory about it because you just change the meanings you assign to words like "art", "artist", "piece of art", place it in a different context etc. (and by saying "you", I do not mean you, 4everchan, specifically, but a general "you" so do not feel attacked or offended, please). The other way round, with the opposite set of views, it might be exactly the same. It happens quite often with humans.
That's why I just think that whatever we think about figure skating being art, or sport, or a mix of both, I do not believe we will ever agree about it. What, I believe, would be much more hopeful path for this discussion is to think about the best way to make it scored fairly, impartially and as objectively as possible in all its duality, or complexity, if you like, whatever we want to name it. As maybe, just maybe, this way we might come to some conclusions more or less acceptable for everyone.

One can be a fan of a skater and not agree with what he says... Yagudin has been mentioned a few times in threads. I am a super Yagudin fan, the skater. I dislike the human being who has said monstrosities. I am a Patrick fan, I agree and disagree with some of the things he has said. Maybe some fans are so deeply invested in the skater they adore that they lose some perspective. I wouldn't quite say that's my case, most of the times at least.

ETA Patrick is doing some pub stunts for Panasonic airfryers... I don't think I will be buying one anytime soon.

 

[Magill]

One can be a fan of a skater and not agree with what he says... Yagudin has been mentioned a few times in threads. I am a super Yagudin fan, the skater. I dislike the human being who has said monstrosities. I am a Patrick fan, I agree and disagree with some of the things he has said. Maybe some fans are so deeply invested in the skater they adore that they lose some perspective. I wouldn't quite say that's my case, most of the times at least

Good for you. Yet as I said, what I meant was a general "you"and not you specifically. So let's not make it into a discussion about you

 

[4everchan]

Good for you. Yet as I said, what I meant was a general "you"and not you specifically. So let's not make it into a discussion about you

thank YOU

 

[Mathman]

LOL I thought this was a defence of armography, but alas no.

I know, right? One has to read through the original blogger's essay on Vincent Van Gogh to know what the thread is about.

 

[Magill]

I think the people who are want to see big guys running into each other will never be attracted to figure skating, but there are others who might be - and who are not.
I am thinking of teenagers and young people who love to do and watch dance routines, who have a more or less competitive mind, who like sports and working out.. there are many of them... But are they attracted to figure skating? Does figure skating want to attract them? Usually no.

There are also those who get initially interested and start to follow but leave. No effort is made to keep them.
The fist step would be actually to understand why it is that they leave.
And by "understand" I mean some kind of research made into this group to get some more or less reliable info to work with.

 

[gkelly]

There are also those who get initially interested and start to follow but leave. No effort is made to keep them.
The fist step would be actually to understand why it is that they leave.
And by "understand" I mean some kind of research made into this group to get some more or less reliable info to work with.

How would you go about researching this?

 

[4everchan]

From reading on this forum and from my friends as well : a lot of people do not get invested in figure skating though they like watching it, because they don't understand the scoring. People usually tend to appreciate what they can compute. That is just one of the possible reasons I can see.

 

[el henry]

I think the people who are want to see big guys running into each other will never be attracted to figure skating, but there are others who might be - and who are not.
I am thinking of teenagers and young people who love to do and watch dance routines, who have a more or less competitive mind, who like sports and working out.. there are many of them... But are they attracted to figure skating? Does figure skating want to attract them? Usually no.

I think figure skating would attract those young folks in droves.

as long as it was not a numbers game of "was that *really* a full revolution" "which edge did they take off on" "Let me add up all the GOE, BV and ABC PDQ and XYZ and see who won"

IMO, that will drive them away. No one loves a sport more when they learn about scoring, they learn about scoring after they love the sport more. But how do we know if my opinion is correct? Without marketing, I'm just gonna say me and all my friends are right. Cause I'm me.

 

[Magill]

From reading on this forum and from my friends as well : a lot of people do not get invested in figure skating though they like watching it, because they don't understand the scoring. People usually tend to appreciate what they can compute. That is just one of the possible reasons I can see.

I do not think it is about computing only. I think it is about understanding the rules and perceiving them as transparent, as opposed to what outsiders perceive as lack of rules or corrupted rules as scoring often goes against what they see and intuitively value one way or another. I mean, in simple words, they do not understand why X wins over Y and not the other way round, and if it happens too often, they just say "meh" and use their remote control.
The phrase I often heard is "beauty contest". Like in the sentence:"it's more like a beauty contest than a sport". And believe me, it was not related to the costumes and the glitter but to the scoring transparency, unfortunately. Yet, it is just my experience so "me and my freinds" argument stands tall.

 

[el henry]

LOL I thought this was a defence of armography, but alas no.

I'm sure my favourite programs wouldn't be thought of as artistic, but does that mean they're not

Or is art just a matter of opinion...

Now *that* would be a thread.

I love good hand-ography. Discuss.

 

[4everchan]

I do not think it is about computing only. I think it is about understanding the rules and perceiving them as transparent, as opposed to what outsiders perceive as lack of rules or corrupted rules as scoring often goes against what they see and intuitively value one way or another. I mean, in simple words, they do not understand why X wins over Y and not the other way round, and if it happens too often, they just say "meh" and use their remote control.
The phrase I often heard is "beauty contest". Like in the sentence:"it's more like a beauty contest than a sport". And believe me, it was not related to the costumes and the glitter but to the scoring transparency, unfortunately. Yet, it is just my experience so "me and my freinds" argument stands tall.

I mean computing in a very broad sense, not just in the calculating of points but also including understanding the rules, not just being able to identify jumps, number of revolutions, turns and steps, etc. I mentioned "even on this forum" because I have encountered people saying that they do not follow ice dance because they cannot understand it. I was already watching figure skating as a kid and at one point, on TV, the commentators did a segment showing every single jump take off and describing them with proper slo-mo support. I got really intrigued and watched it on repeat. I think I broke the VHS tape... Yup... that's a long time ago. Back then, telegraphing was the norm and it was much easier to identify the jumps. There was no possible way one could mistake a lutz entrance for instance : it's a bit trickier now. However, it did help me and that's how I got more and more invested. Unfortunately, I cannot identify turns in ice dance step sequences, but I am not bad with everything else, including some features. But it came from "work" on my part. It wasn't free. I had to update as well when gymnastics changed their scoring completely. I am still not very knowledgeable on the new gymnastics rules. So all of this is difficult for fans. Rules change. Even dedicated fans get surprised with how a feature is no longer a feature, or an element no longer required. What is the mandatory solo jump for juniors this year? (I know the answer but not everyone does). Pairs, for instance have changed a lot in recent years : the spins are split between both programs (SBS vs pairs spin), etc. And then, bring on the judging scandals. The ISU needs to do a better job at making the scoring more transparent. They have tried with the technical ticker box. There is still a lot more to be done.

 

[peepsquick]

So why do you think dance is not an Olympic sport while figure skating is ?

Attracts a different public, one focused on winning rather than performing ... Ballet, modern dance etc ... are as "physical" as Figure skating but only Ballroom dancing gets evaluated like a sports discipline. It is a competition about technical mastery of steps.

 

[4everchan]

Attracts a different public, one focused on winning rather than performing ... Ballet, modern dance etc ... are as "physical" as Figure skating but only Ballroom dancing gets evaluated like a sports discipline. It is a competition about technical mastery of steps.

there you go. The focus or intent makes figure skating a sport where people want to win medals.

 

[Magill]

How would you go about researching this?

There are many ways to approach it like (just first things that come to my head):
- simple exit surveys (e.g. if I unsubscribe from ISU channel on YT, or Olympic Figure Skating channel, or such, the moment I press the "Unsubscribe" button I am sent a survey asking me to share my reasons and explaining it is not to make a marketing effort on me to come back but to help to improve the viewership of the sport), a good list of exit groups/media/social media/channels would need to be compiled and off you go; in a slightly more sophisticated survey you could approach "sleeping accounts" this way, I mean those who did not unsubscribe but just have not been actively using their accounts for some pre-defined prolonged time (even exits/sleeping accounts from GS could bring some interesting data, probably, although drowned in the site related opinions) - this obviously depends on legislation in various countries who can be approached this way and by whom
- focus groups - this is a qualitative research method which you can just check on the net as it is a bit complicated to explain here
- including a series of questions into more general TV viewership survey like asking "Have you ever watched..., Do you watch regularly.... Why not... Why not anymore .... what would have to happen... etc. (which gives you some kind of quantitative data difficult to obtain otherwise).
- addressing fora like this one here for brainstorming sessions and surveys, especially asking them if they can approach their former members by email with a survey
There are just ad hoc ideas off my head and it is not even my area of expertise - I am sure if you approached some specialized agency they would give you more and more elaborate options.

 

[icewhite]

I think figure skating would attract those young folks in droves.

as long as it was not a numbers game of "was that *really* a full revolution" "which edge did they take off on" "Let me add up all the GOE, BV and ABC PDQ and XYZ and see who won"

IMO, that will drive them away. No one loves a sport more when they learn about scoring, they learn about scoring after they love the sport more. But how do we know if my opinion is correct? Without marketing, I'm just gonna say me and all my friends are right. Cause I'm me.

In my opinion the scoring or focus on artistry or jumps is just not the decisive point in attracting an audience, it's the choice of music, costumes, roles.

I absolutely do agree though with those that say more transparency and "education" regarding scoring and judging is crucial as well. It's frustrating not to get it or if you feel like the performances you liked best don't get the reward, especially without knowing why. That doesn't only mean a focus on counting and stuff, but transparent and fair judging.

 

[icewhite]

There are many ways to approach it like (just first things that come to my head):
- simple exit surveys (e.g. if I unsubscribe from ISU channel on YT, or Olympic Figure Skating channel, or such, the moment I press the "Unsubscribe" button I am sent a survey asking me to share my reasons and explaining it is not to make a marketing effort on me to come back but to help to improve the viewership of the sport), a good list of exit groups/media/social media/channels would need to be compiled and off you go; in a slightly more sophisticated survey you could approach "sleeping accounts" this way, I mean those who did not unsubscribe but just have not been actively using their accounts for some pre-defined prolonged time (even exits/sleeping accounts from GS could bring some interesting data, probably, although drowned in the site related opinions) - this obviously depends on legislation in various countries who can be approached this way and by whom
- focus groups - this is a qualitative research method which you can just check on the net as it is a bit complicated to explain here
- including a series of questions into more general TV viewership survey like asking "Have you ever watched..., Do you watch regularly.... Why not... Why not anymore .... what would have to happen... etc. (which gives you some kind of quantitative data difficult to obtain otherwise).
- addressing fora like this one here for brainstorming sessions and surveys, especially asking them if they can approach their former members by email with a survey
There are just ad hoc ideas off my head and it is not even my area of expertise - I am sure if you approached some specialized agency they would give you more and more elaborate options.

I suppose a general survey of "which attributes do you associate with figure skating" and a rating of those attributes would also help. Because I suspect that those attributes they assign will often not be positively connoted by people.

 

[Magill]

I suppose a general survey of "which attributes do you associate with figure skating" and a rating of those attributes would also help. Because I suspect that those attributes they assign will often not be positively connoted by people.

Yes, sure. This is if we want to understand the general attitudes about figure skating, sure, it would be very helpful to know how it is perceived - and by whom - in the first place. Then you can design an informed plan of actions to change these perceptions if it would help.