The European Men v. the North American Men

[Joesitz (RIP)]

From what you've seen the past season, how would you rate the Men?

The European

Plushenko

Joubert

Lambiel

Lindemann

Any new face on the seen?

The North Americans

Buttle

Lysacek

Weir

Sandhu

Goebel

Sawyer

Weiss

Other



Joe

 

[lotusland]

Not sure I know what you mean by rate them. Here goes:

The Europeans

Plushenko - the best competitive mind of any male competitor today, definately needs to get healthy to stay in the game, otherwise he is the best technical jumper in the biz, needs to work on his spins, would really like to see him work with a new/better choreographer because his work to date honestly has been very mediocre in quality (especially when compared to Weir or Buttle or even Sandhu), although he personnally is loaded with charisma and style.

Joubert - if the jumps go wrong he has nothing to fall back on beyond medium level skills in everything, great looking guy but that won't win the day, hopefully he learned in Moscow you can't throw away the choreography in search of the illusive jumps.

Lambiel - best spiner in the biz, good jumper, has to work on his in-betweens, needs more intricate and sophisticated choreography, appears to be determined and if he stays healthy, he will definately be in the hunt again.

Lindemann - steadily improving, needs more work on everything.

Any new face on the seen?

The North Americans

Buttle - excellent overall skater, very good spinner, definately has the most intricate and interesting choreography of anyone, not the most natural jumper and therefore really needs to work on technique to get jump consistency, not to mention get the quad going, if all goes well he should still stay in the hunt.

Lysacek - nice jumper, medium spinner, needs stronger and more sophisticated work e.g. transitions etc. in his choreography, still looks junior in presentation (even though he just medalled).

Weir - excellent overall skater, good spinner, needs to get the quad going, would like to see him show choreographic range, once he is healthy again, he'll definately be a contender.

Sandhu - what can you say about this guy? excellent overall skater, natural jumper, good spinner, choreographically he's like a one note samba, I'd really like to see him work with a new choreographer to extend his range/repetoire, competitively I doubt he will ever get it together long enough to win, place, or show at Worlds or the Olympics ... as a result, I'd prefer that Skate Canada spend it's pesos on one of the up and comers behind Sandhu and get them the necessary experienced in time for 2010.

Goebel - rumour is the boy is very difficult to work with, he always knows more than his coaches do. Likes to jump, mediocre to poor everything else. If skating is a jumping contest a healthy Tim could definately contend, otherwise he has lots of work to do to catch up to Plushenko, Weir, Buttle, etc., I don't know how he will end up.

Sawyer - so flexible it is scarey! inconsistent jumper, good spinner, likes to present, maturing quite nicely but still doesn't quite look like a Senior man when compared to Buttle or Sandhu.

Weiss - Don't know what to say other than he needs jump consistency, mental toughness and ... A NEW CHOREOGRAPHER!

Other

Honda - needs to get and stay healthy, good jumper, decent spinner, medium to good skills in everything else, if at 100% could still contend.

Li - needs to work on overall conditioning because he often runs out of steam before the program is over (the quads take so much energy out of him), needs to continue working on both his spins and general skating skills, otherwise he is a good jumper who (hopefully) learned this year he needs to have much more sophistication in his choreography to be a contender.

JMTC

 

[nicole_l]

Don't forget Kevin Van der Perron and Ilia Klimkin for Europe and Matt Savoie for North America.

 

[brad640]

The European

Plushenko – will win if he skates at the Olympics. Judges scores from QR and SP showed they will give it to him if he shows up.

Joubert – needs to look in the mirror and ask himself if he still wants it

Lambiel – should win Olympic gold, low landings on jumps are scary, spins are the best, tough competitor

Lindemann – undermarked at worlds. Wonderfully original style

Van der Parren – great jumps, pleasant style, needs to work on everything else, needs a quad

Dambier – not a medal contender any way you cut it, but could have a decent finish

Griazev – needs to find his own style, SP was good, LP was cheap Yagudin knock-off

Klimkin – please come back! Greatly missed this season

Uspenski – only 2 spots for Russia will leave him out of it, same for Dobrin

The North Americans

Buttle – will he get new programs for next year? Will be hard to top this year’s choreo.

Lysacek – time for the backlash after many were outspoken that he did not deserve that bronze medal. He is on a roll, Frank is in full support mode for him.

Weir – he is trying the quad, so how long will it take him to become consistent. Needs more jump combinations – tech score at worlds was sad

Sandhu – could always pull it together and win, but never does.

Goebel – overmarked at worlds, did not deserve top ten ahead of Dinev, Lindeman. Emotional basket case, how long can Weisseger stand it? May be coaching himself at nationals

Sawyer – love that extension, needs triple axel quad, other jumps

Weiss – please retire, nationals was painful to watch

Savoie – not looking good for him politically to make Olys, but deserves to place ahead of Goebel

Jahnke – too bad to see him out of it

Ryan Bradley – hope he will make it back to nationals

Asian

Li – undermarked, needs to overcome bias against his artistry

Honda – will he ever make it back?

Takahashi – great charisma and fun to watch

Zhang – needs to drop the classical music, great quads

 

[Vash01]

The European

Plushenko – will win if he skates at the Olympics. Judges scores from QR and SP showed they will give it to him if he shows up.

Where did you get that? He was 2nd in the QR and 5th in the SP. That's hardly the sign of winning if he just shows up. He not only needs to show up, but he needs to be healthier than he has ever been.

Vash

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

At this point in time I think the European Men will be dominating this Division. The North Americans will continue to skate exceedingly well but will be a notch below the Europeans.

I'm looking forward to the GPs to see how well all of them do during this preOly test. I'm not interested in who wins the GPs. I just want to see how well or bad they are skating at that point in time and wonder if it is a precursor to the Olys.

(Li is just another case for honest CoPs.)

Joe

 

[Doggygirl]

The GP will definately be interesting to watch next fall...

I think there is a very interesting mix of styles and skills on both sides of the globe. In looking at the list of names (and the additions) in both groups, there is enough variety there to please anybody's style preferences.

The most glaring difference to me is in the jumping part of the technical score. In the quad department, I think the North American group is weak relative to the European / Asian group. For the NA group, can Goebel get his back? Can Weir, Buttle, Lysacek get them consistently for the first time in an Oly year? Of course Sandhu has quads and I would love to see him do well, but we all know about his consistency problems overall.

BUT...we saw World's where Lambiel was the only guy on the podium with quads, but he was at the top. I'm glad to see that the mere existance of quads in a program no longer automatically sends one to the top of the score sheet. And there are plenty of guys on both sides of the globe that have a wonderful arsenal of 3's in interesting combinations.

Then there is Plush.... If he can get healthy I think we should give him is own category on the list. (NA, Euro / Asia, Plush)

The programs as a whole should be interesting too as all of the top men have room to move on the non-jump technical side - no Level 3's were called for any of the men in the LP top 8 guys at Worlds.

DG

 

[BittyBug]

Weir – he is trying the quad, so how long will it take him to become consistent. Needs more jump combinations – tech score at worlds was sad

His tech score at Worlds was "sad" because he had to water down his straight line step sequence and several of his spins because of his foot injury. So he started at a lower level than normal, and then also received lower GOEs than usual because his injury prevented him from executing at his usual level of quality.

I agree that he should milk CoP by tacking on some double toes at a minimum, but his tech score at Worlds was a reflection of his injury.

Then there is Plush.... If he can get healthy I think we should give him is own category on the list. (NA, Euro / Asia, Plush)

PML!!!!

 

[chuckm]

European

Plushenko - the one against whom all other skaters are measured.
Joubert - needs to resolve his coach and personal issues or he will be toast next season. The French federation is not helping their #1 hope for an OGM.
Lambiel - he is vulnerable because of his inconsistent triple jumps.

North American

Weir - I put him ahead of Buttle because when he is free of injury, he is one of the most secure jumpers in the World. He tried a quad unsuccessfully at Marshall's; eventually, with more practice and more attempt, that jump will become as consistent as his triples.

Buttle - Has 3A and quad problems that make him vulnerable if others skate clean.

Lysacek - has found his own style, and a newfound confidence. He is working on a quad, too.

Sandhu - seems to be a victim of his own mercurial personality. His chances wane with every passing year.

 

[Jaana]

Plushenko - a great skater on every area, and also an excellent competitor. Very much loved by the judges. With Russians the next season will be really interesting as they have only two slots for the Olympics and Worlds. If Plushenko is healthy, he is of course one of them, but it is a veeeery big question who will be the other one. Will it be Klimkin, Uspenski, Dobrin or Griazev?

Joubert - consistent jumper, but otherwise he is very wooden and unexpressive. For him Tarasova has not yet found the right formula to fool people. Or is she even really trying to?

Lambiel - great jumps and awesome spins, artistry and natural charisma

Lindemann - he has a very springy looking jumping.

Buttle - he is great in artistry, but I don´t think that his jumping will bring him onto the podium next season.

Lysacek - I think he will be very formidable next season. I have liked this skater since I saw his programmes from junior Worlds (or was it GP).

Weir - My biggest favourite of them all, but he needs at least one quad. He has great natural charisma and is really expressive, what a joy to watch his skating!!! I hope he did not spoil his Olympic chances by not introducing a quad this season.

Sandhu - If he manages to win his own demons, he will be on the podium next season

Goebel - the word expressiveness is unfamiliar with his connection.

Sawyer - I don´t remember him

Weiss - I have for years liked his skating very much, but will he be there next season?

 

[夏天的冰淇淋]

Plushenko,the world's greatest

I hope he can keep fit and win the gold medal in Olympic 2006

 

[Mathman]

I totally agree! Welcome to Golden Skate!

Mathman

 

[mzheng]

Wow, 'TheIceCreamInSummer' how can you get your screen name in chinese?
Wellcome to the board.

 

[Kally H.]

I totally agree! Welcome to Golden Skate!

Mathman, you're always so kind to the new users! I don't post regularly(at all!), but I read the board and am amazed at your joint responsibility for the embarrassing newbies(like me)

On the topic, I think at the moment the European men are stronger than the North Americans and although I respect the US skaters and the Canadians, I find the Europeans more spectacular. If we're considering them one by one, Plush is unquestionably on the top because of his fight spirit, love to the audience, and will to win. That always makes him the favourite of judges and fans. Besides, he has great jump technique and each season shows big improvement on spins(I suspect this is because his injuries don't allow him to jump as much as before in practices and he has to concentrate on other elements, but it's only an assumption.)

I'll put Lambiel on second place - being the reigning World champ, he deserves it, but I haven't much to say about him because I'm not a big fan. He's a nice guy, though. The greatest spins among the top men, at least.

And the young one, I mean Andrei Griazev. I expect him to reveal his potential soon, then we'll have what to talk on. Go, boy The same for Dobrin and Jamal Othman, even if they still are the complete noobs on the stage.

Oops, I forget Brian Joubert! For me he was good enough to win European title, but not enough to become European Champion, if you know what I mean. Good jumps and great ambitions, that's all I see in him. I feel a little sorry for this guy - Jagudin, the federation, the mother, the father, and all the personal charges to him, and the problems with the coach, and, and. It should be very hard, but I just don't get his skating.

I live east of the Atlantic ocean and west of Ural Mountain , so I can't say much about the Americans and the Asian Invasion, but I kinda like Johnny Weir and Evan Lysacek. Johnny is absolutely adorable looney with great skating skills, and Evan is... refreshing. Smiling and enjoying the skate, very nice to watch.

And the last one I am going to pick is Chenjang Li. I know he's neither from North America nor Swiss citizen, but I think the guy deserves to be mentioned everywhere where possible - so many wuzrobbings in his career, and still keeps fighting, isn't that respectable? I suppose most of the "top skaters" would get desperated a long time ago in his place.

That's all from me. See my location and guess where am I going now

 

[Matt]

The European Men v. the North American Men

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The European

Plushenko-needs to get healthy; needs to work with CoP IMHO. He's a fantastic jumper, but his spins are very weak and his choreography is too frenetic and too much of the same thing. He needs to have more of a range and learn that he's not (or shouldn't) be handed the gold medal simply b/c he's Evgeny Plushenko, b/c he's not untouchable

Joubert-One word: Choreography. He needs choreography that can give him a definite style (not more of the same Yags jr. stuff) and really develop it so that if/when the jumps fail him, he has something to fall back on. Guyon is a definite plus here.


Lambiel-More intricate transitions and an all-around sense of consistency with the other triples. As we usually only see him at Europeans and Worlds, some GP time to give him a little more clout on the year so he can hone his skills, build more confidence against the big-name skaters, and prove he's not just a major competitions skater. Plus, a level head to handle going into Torino as the WC

Lindemann: He came on the scene so suddenly, and suddenly disappeared from it. Consistency, definitely, plus choreography that works for him (IIRC, he had some trouble warming up to his "Big Bounce" number). He's a wonderful skater, though, some really nice skating at the Champions Gala

Any new face on the seen?: Griazev and van der Perren made some noise at Worlds. I'd look to them

The North Americans

Buttle: Nailing down the quad so he can at least attempt it in competition. He's got the spins and the artistry, but he seems a bit tentative (not really going for the audience with his skating), so more confidence. The silver medal will help.

Lysacek: Really focus on the technical side of his skating; he's trying, but more consistency with the triples, especially the 3axel and variety in the spins

Weir: Same for Buttle, really

Sandhu: It's the same thing every time: CONSISTENCY. With Sandhu, it's like a craps shoot; every once in a while, you role a 7. Also, refinement of some of the position in his spins; IMO, they're a little unattractive

Goebel: Just coming back; more time to get his skating legs back

Sawyer: More time as a skater on the senior circuit

Weiss: um...let's see...I'll try to put a positive face on this...new choreographer, something conventional to skate to, more focus on the aspects of your skating that need work instead of creating new moves like the "Tornado", etc.


Other: Come on, judges, Li and Zhang needs some respect

 

[Mathman]

Wow, 'TheIceCreamInSummer' how can you get your screen name in chinese?
Wellcome to the board.

Thanks for the translation, MZheng. I can't see these characters at all on my home computer (it just comes out as a row of square zeros). But my computer at work does support Chinese characters. I think you need the right fonts on your computer, or something.

MM