The Judging Controversy Thread

[Petitefleur]

I dream of a day in the future where machines will replace technical specialists in figure skating, like they do in tennis. Edges, speeds, takeoff/landing angles, exact blueprints of all turns, etc. Get rid of these corrupt tech panels that are completely unaccounted and hidden thanks to general public's ignorance of the system. (Public outrage is rather focused on the judges, but I am even more outraged by the techs.)

machines can judge only machines... programs are recorded and the technical panel is able to check ...

 

[mmcdermott]

Of course, you're right that this is up to the community of figure skating if they really want to improve or question the quality of judging; however with anonymous judges there's no way they can do it even theoretically.
We have a similar situation in soccer with very human refs who make intended or not intended mistakes. Actually, no big event goes without a scandal. FIFA has been criticized a lot but they at least work on this. All these mistakes are looked through after the event and there are refs who are found guilty in being incompetent and banned from international events. Is it enough? We have divided opinion here but that's at least something.

That's exactly what I'm getting at Removing anonymous judging seems to be touted as the solution, but I just don't see how it would make much of a difference on its own. Not if the organization isn't going to do anything about it. There should be a larger strategy for improving transparency and fairness - making judges names public would be a part of that.

 

[tana]

There are several levels of good grades.

Before the competition started, I rooted for Mao to win. I still believe she should have won the LP.
But her actual score in LP did not even come close to Sotnikova's and Mao did a much more difficult program.
(Yes, they downgraded two of her eight triples. But many would question those calls as well.)

In LP, Mao was quite a bit better than everyone else, in my opinion. Where's the score she deserved?

I agree. Mao should have won the LP segment with Adelina's score. Hopefully judges will get it right this time for Mao if she can replicate the Sochi LP performane.

 

[cchen24]

machines can judge only machines... programs are recorded and the technical panel is able to check ...

But the technical panel could not see Sotnikova's flutz in Sochi, and could not see her under-rotated 3T, either.

wonder what happened....

 

[Petitefleur]

That doesn't explain if the Tech panel was corrupt or not, and it doesn't prevent too high GOE. A judge doesn't have to see the total score to know they're giving Adelina higher than Yuna.

but 6 judges giving the same grade ? why do you refuse the idea that they sincerely believe that Adelina deserved better grades ?

 

[ILuvYuna]

^One thing they ought to have is a cam at the top of the stadium that can track the skater's speed & ice-coverage from start to finish - that can be done with today's technology.

 

[gkelly]

Even if you think they were wrong, that doesn't necessarily mean that they were insincere.

 

[leafygreens]

But the technical panel could not see Sotnikova's flutz in Sochi, and could not see her under-rotated 3T, either.

wonder what happened....

Willful ignorance?

but 6 judges ? why do you refuse the idea that they sincerely believe that Adelina deserved better grades ?

Who says it was 6? It doesn't matter if Adelina's marks were achieved through corruption, ignorance, mistakes, or a combination of all three, because Adelina's marks have been proven to be inaccurate - no matter how the result was reached.

 

[bellamie]

but 6 judges ? why do you refuse the idea that they sincerely believe that Adelina deserved better grades ?

Do you really believe that 6 judges judge in their sincerity? We only don't have phisical evidences of them. We have strong suspicions some about them. Must of all, I recommend you to see judgement of each judges in detail.

 

[Petitefleur]

thanks to GKELLY for these more precise explanations

 

[Anna K.]

That's exactly what I'm getting at Removing anonymous judging seems to be touted as the solution, but I just don't see how it would make much of a difference on its own. Not if the organization isn't going to do anything about it. There should be a larger strategy for improving transparency and fairness - making judges names public would be a part of that.

You got it
That’s why it will be interesting to watch what strategy ISU will choose for the future now when they are going to have a new chairman.
I’m not overly optimistic but I’m really curious.

 

[starrynight]

But the technical panel could not see Sotnikova's flutz in Sochi, and could not see her under-rotated 3T, either.

wonder what happened....

All powerful Lakernik may be the answer. His regular job is the VP of the Russian Skating Federation. Also he was in the scene of the 2002 controversy.

 

[Petitefleur]

Do you really believe that 6 judges judge in their sincerity? Must of all, I recommend you to see judgement of each judges in detail.

I can't be completely confident, but the grades seem correct.
In the free, PCS are substantially similar ...Sotnikova took advantage with the base value of her program, 3.94 more compared to Kim, and she earned a 1.91 GOE. A more technically substantial program , if properly executed, should add proportionally extra GOE.

 

[cchen24]

I can't be completely confident, but the grades seem correct.
In the free, PCS are substantially similar ...Sotnikova won with the base value of her program, 3.94 more compared to Kim, and earned a 1.91 GOE. A more technically substantial program , if properly executed, should added proportionally extra GOE.

ladies LP in Sochi,
base value: Sotnikova 61.43, Kim 57.49, Asada 66.34(!!!!!!)
TES: Sotnikova 74.54 (+13.11 GOEs), Kim 69.69 (+12.2 GOEs), Asada 73.03 (+6.69 ???)

I thought, you meant Mao Asada should have gotten HUGE GOEs with such a difficult program?!

Even with two downgrades, Mao's base value was WAY higher than anyone else.
Now, if we take the deductions for Adelina's under-rotated 3T....

Prior to this competition, Yuna was famous for getting HUGE bonuses for her textbook jumps.
All of a sudden, this advantage was wiped out. Amazing!

Adelina getting equal PCS as Yuna?? Wow, that is another joke.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Originally Posted by usethis2
I dream of a day in the future where machines will replace technical specialists in figure skating, like they do in tennis. Edges, speeds, takeoff/landing angles, exact blueprints of all turns, etc. Get rid of these corrupt tech panels that are completely unaccounted and hidden thanks to general public's ignorance of the system. (Public outrage is rather focused on the judges, but I am even more outraged by the techs.)

Funniest post ever!!

 

[jehan215]

All powerful Lakernik may be the answer. His regular job is the VP of the Russian Skating Federation. Also he was in the scene of the 2002 controversy.

This is exactly why I cannot understand how ISU put him as head of technical. It's like they brought it upon themselves to be criticized by the public. Even in an ordinary job, you get checked for criminal background, credit history, and any possible conflict of interest. The only two possible theories behind this are either that ISU is just lacking integrity to make this sports a fair game, i.e. plain dumb, or they're in this with the Russians. ISU better fix themselves soon or else figure skating may suffer in popularity.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Here is what I don't get. I thought Kostner jumped and skated better (more grace and conviction) than both Yuna and Adelina. Could you discuss that for a while maybe?

 

[pangtongfan]

Here is what I don't get. I thought Kostner jumped and skated better (more grace and conviction) than both Yuna and Adelina. Could you discuss that for a while maybe?

I thought the results should have been:

LP- 1. Asada, 2. Kostner, 3. Kim.....big gap.....4. Sotnikova
Overall- 1. Kostner, 2. Kim, 3. Sotnikova or Asada

Though could have accepted any possible order between Asada, Kostner, and Kim in the LP and Kostner and Kim overall as they were very close. Would have expected Kim given her status to get the benefit of doubt in both cases. Sotnikova was not even close to deserving to beat any of those 3 in the LP and either of those 2 overall, that much is abundantly clear.

 

[JayW]

I am so happy that Carolina was brought in to this discussion. The score is just as much unfair to her as to Yuna. Among the top three, Adelina is the least worthy one to the gold!

 

[cchen24]

Here is what I don't get. I thought Kostner jumped and skated better (more grace and conviction) than both Yuna and Adelina. Could you discuss that for a while maybe?

To me, it's a toss up between Kostner and Kim overall. I don't have a problem for Kostner to take the gold.
(still believe Asada should have won the LP, though.)