The Judging Controversy Thread

[gkelly]

I'll have to go back and analyze Asada's program when I get a chance.

Meanwhile, my guess is that her scores were a victim of skate order, that even though judges gave her much higher PCS than the other skaters in that warmup group, they may not have been in the psychological mindset to give the same kind of high scores that they gave in the final group. I.e., she didn't benefit from the same kind of Olympic excitement/Olympic score inflation that the other top skaters did.

Which, the way this system works, would be a less competent use of numbers.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

I'll have to go back and analyze Asada's program when I get a chance.

Meanwhile, my guess is that her scores were a victim of skate order, that even though judges gave her much higher PCS than the other skaters in that warmup group, they may not have been in the psychological mindset to give the same kind of high scores that they gave in the final group. I.e., she didn't benefit from the same kind of Olympic excitement/Olympic score inflation that the other top skaters did.

Which, the way this system works, would be a less competent use of numbers.

Are you referring to the Zamboni resurfacing mandatory PCS bump?

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

As a matter of fact in the music world, to get into a professional orchestra, the standard repertoire for the auditions usually includes some technically easy pieces of music, because they immediately reveal how good your basics are. And it takes a long time to refine the basics.

This is probably true. You can learn a lot about a violinist from how they play Mozart or Beethoven, which in many ways are more difficult than the popular romantic pieces. However, if you had a concerto competition in which one played a very good Paganini versus and excellent Mozart, most of the time the Paganini will win just because the piece isn't written to display a lot of musicianship. I fully understand the argument for having Caro or Yuna in first, and am in agreement with a lot of the points. However, Adelina performed the most difficult program (jumps, choreography, spins, transitions) very well, and while not as polished as the top two, it was still very strong. On that night the judges preferred virtuosity over polish, which is why I never understood the outrage over this decision. Yes, if you like Yuna/Caro's style of skating the decision looks questionable at first but if one sits down and watches the programs with a critical eye (not just Adelina's, but all three) they each had strengths and weakness, and to me not one stood out to where I'd say for sure 100% this person should have won.

 

[gkelly]

Are you referring to the Zamboni resurfacing mandatory PCS bump?

That's one way of putting it.

My feeling is that, taking both programs into account, the right three skaters were on the podium and there's room for valid disagreement about the order. It dismays me that so many people are so emotionally involved in their own assessment that they look for reasons to discredit any other opinions.

 

[cchen24]

I'll have to go back and analyze Asada's program when I get a chance.

Meanwhile, my guess is that her scores were a victim of skate order, that even though judges gave her much higher PCS than the other skaters in that warmup group, they may not have been in the psychological mindset to give the same kind of high scores that they gave in the final group. I.e., she didn't benefit from the same kind of Olympic excitement/Olympic score inflation that the other top skaters did.

Which, the way this system works, would be a less competent use of numbers.

Please do so when you get a chance because I believe Mao Asada's LP was the highlight of the ladies event.
I believe this is probably the only program I'll go back and watch again and again years from now.

The excuse of her skate order is probably not very convincing because she entered the Olympics as one of the medal contenders. When she performs well, which she did in LP, she is right up there with the very best skaters in the world.
If the judges were not aware of that, then they were not supposed to judge at the Olympics.

Therefore, I believe the judges purposely held her down.
If the judges were competent, they ought to use whatever PCS they gave Mao as the basics for the last group of skaters.

If the judges purposely held Mao down, who else they might have held down on purpose?

 

[cchen24]

I fully understand the argument for having Caro or Yuna in first, and am in agreement with a lot of the points. However, Adelina performed the most difficult program (jumps, choreography, spins, transitions) very well, and while not as polished as the top two, it was still very strong. On that night the judges preferred virtuosity over polish, which is why I never understood the outrage over this decision. Yes, if you like Yuna/Caro's style of skating the decision looks questionable at first but if one sits down and watches the programs with a critical eye (not just Adelina's, but all three) they each had strengths and weakness, and to me not one stood out to where I'd say for sure 100% this person should have won.

To me, there was one skater who stood out in the LP.
I thought that Mao had the most difficult program of all, jumps, spins, transitions, choreography.
And to me, she had the best execution that night and she delivered an unbelievable program, probably the best in her entire career so far.

After I watched the ladies LP the first time, I thought Mao Asada should have won.
After watching the ladies LP again with a critical eye, I still believe Mao Asada should have won the segment of the competition.

However, Mao was only third in LP, almost tied with Caro who placed fourth.
I am not even a Mao fan. I'll admit that I always prefer Yuna over Mao, but in this LP, Mao should have won.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

If the judges purposely held Mao down, who else they might have held down on purpose?

I disliked Mao's marks the most of any skater in Sochi in the LP. However, I don't think it was intentional for her marks to be held down. Skating so early, and after her worst SP I can remember, Mao was being compared to those who skated before her. Her marks were stellar relative to skaters in the first two groups. Had they compared her side-by-side against Julia I think her marks would be much higher, but in the last two groups the average mark was much higher, and when a skater performs better than average in those groups they are going to get even higher marks.

 

[cchen24]

I disliked Mao's marks the most of any skater in Sochi in the LP. However, I don't think it was intentional for her marks to be held down. Skating so early, and after her worst SP I can remember, Mao was being compared to those who skated before her. Her marks were stellar relative to skaters in the first two groups. Had they compared her side-by-side against Julia I think her marks would be much higher, but in the last two groups the average mark was much higher, and when a skater performs better than average in those groups they are going to get even higher marks.

You know, I don't buy this argument, period.

I was following the posts here during the ladies LP. Most people here in this forum knew better. They were screaming, after Yulia's skate, that Yulia'd better not get higher PCS than Mao. But unfortunately, Yulia did get higher PCS than Mao. If the fans here can do a better job than those judges, it's time for the ISU to fire those incompetent judges!

 

[starrynight]

I disliked Mao's marks the most of any skater in Sochi in the LP. However, I don't think it was intentional for her marks to be held down. Skating so early, and after her worst SP I can remember, Mao was being compared to those who skated before her. Her marks were stellar relative to skaters in the first two groups. Had they compared her side-by-side against Julia I think her marks would be much higher, but in the last two groups the average mark was much higher, and when a skater performs better than average in those groups they are going to get even higher marks.

It does not make any sense. If the judges could compare Mao's presentation with the first two groups and gave her stellar marks, how come they got all of a sudden blind and oblivious in comparing Mao with the following two groups? The Sochi judgments should be on the list of the Seven Mysteries or something.

 

[capcomeback]

Here's the thing though... If you hold Mao to a certain standard (as the judges did) you have to hold the other skaters to the same standard. Adelina was not held to that standard. You can blame the technical panel for showing favoritism and blatantly cheating (which i do), but there is no way that Mao should have lost the free skate to Adelina. I think this is one of the best arguments to some kind of conspiracy (even though I thought that both Carolina and Yuna should have beaten Adelina as well, Mao placement in the FS is a head scratcher or an inside job).

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Skating early always always always affects your marks. The only reason Yuna won the SP at World's last year was because Caro fell, and Caro still got better PCS which is utterly ridiculous. It does not excuse the tendency but apparently it is a hard flaw to fix because it always happens.

 

[cchen24]

Skating early always always always affects your marks. The only reason Yuna won the SP at World's last year was because Caro fell, and Caro still got better PCS which is utterly ridiculous. It does not excuse the tendency but apparently it is a hard flaw to fix because it always happens.

I am pretty sure that some knowledgeable members here at Golden Skate can do a better job than most ISU judges.

Therefore, I have to ask if the judges are indeed incompetent or simply not willing to get things right for whatever reason.

Either way, this is a serious issue in a judged sport.

 

[shellbell757]

As long as the judges are appointed by the federations and the ISU continues to brush everything under the rug, I doubt these types of controversies will ever go away.

 

[SkateToronto]

I am pretty sure that some knowledgeable members here at Golden Skate can do a better job than most ISU judges.

Therefore, I have to ask if the judges are indeed incompetent or simply not willing to get things right for whatever reason.

Either way, this is a serious issue in a judged sport.

However, not nearly as many as are convinced they could.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

As long as the judges are appointed by the federations and the ISU continues to brush everything under the rug, I doubt these types of controversies will ever go away.

It would be no different if say a soccer club had one of its coaches refereeing its own games. Lol.

 

[usethis2]

I am pretty sure that some knowledgeable members here at Golden Skate can do a better job than most ISU judges.

Therefore, I have to ask if the judges are indeed incompetent or simply not willing to get things right for whatever reason.

Either way, this is a serious issue in a judged sport.

Figure Skating Reference: Evaluating Step Sequences

I can't thank enough the admins of this forum.

 

[skatedreamer]

I am pretty sure that some knowledgeable members here at Golden Skate can do a better job than most ISU judges.

Therefore, I have to ask if the judges are indeed incompetent or simply not willing to get things right for whatever reason.

Either way, this is a serious issue in a judged sport.

And of course in a judged sport, what's "right" is always a matter of opinion. Unfortunately, opinions are so often based on national bias and other factors that have absolutely nothing to do with the quality of a performance. So frustrating!

 

[starrynight]

I hardly get the argument that Adelina's difficult and intricate transitions put an edge over Yuna.

Well, both scored the same for TR as per the protocols:http://www.isuresults.com/results/owg2014/SEG004.HTM

Maybe the scored transitions are something else, different from the "transtions" discussed above.

 

[gkelly]

I'm not sure what you're confused about.

The rules for scoring transitions are pretty general and vague:
consider the Difficulty, Variety, Intricacy, and Quality, on a scale of 0 to 10

Beyond that, there's room for judges to interpret them differently. E.g., some might put the most emphasis on quality, others on difficulty or intricacy (or the opposite in case of telegraphing) or variety, or just counting up how many times or how much time each skater spends doing something other than elements and basic stroking.

Skaters who are strong at different aspects of Transitions might end up with the same score from the same judge if their relative strengths and weaknesses cancel each other out. Or they might end up with the same average score from the panel as a whole if, e.g., some judges prioritize quality and other judges prioritize intricacy.

 

[cchen24]

Just look at Mao's PCS in SP and LP in Sochi as an example:
SP: 8.57 8.29 8.14 8.64 8.71
LP: 8.75 8.36 8.79 8.79 8.86

Mao probably had her worst ever SP and best ever LP in her career in Sochi.
It makes almost no difference in her PCS. OK, Mao's Performance/execution mark did go from 8.14 to 8,79, but that is only 0.11 higher than the first skater of the final flight, Yulia, who fell on a jump and stepped out on another.

I mean, really?!
Maybe these judges have a very short memory. By the time the final flight took the ice, they already forgot about what Mao did. LOL

Now, you still want to convince me that these judges were competent and there was absolutely no conspiracy?
I say look at Mao's marks carefully again. Mao isn't an unknown skater. If I was a judge, I would be very careful in marking her no matter what her skate order was. When Mao delivered a LP like she did in Sochi, I would immediately know that I would need to use that performance against everyone in the final flight since it's probably her career best performance.