The Judging Controversy Thread

[emma]

What about yes or no for the degree?



Uhm, all right; but there's also practical side. Let's take two Olympic longs, Carolina's and Yuna's. How would you judge? Whose is of better quality?

so, this is an interesting question. My short answer in the context of this thread is that no computer program could answer this beyond the precision of their technique. And both offered us first rate technique and technical - even there over the course of two programs, my head explodes a little trying to figure this out. But, both skaters (in different ways in the sp and lp) offered more than that, too. I've actually been trying to figure out how - if we take the place/sochi and Adelina out of the equation - I would rank the two with the skates they gave (not based on anything in their pasts). Short answer now as I am supposed to be working - I think I give Yuna the short and Caro the long; of course, ask me in an hour, I'd probably tie them, then flip the other way an hour later.

I'd love to hear your/others thoughts on this one!

 

[Anna K.]

Uhm, I know how it looks like but - have you read my thread about future skating without judges?

Just wanted to say something positive.

 

[gkelly]

What about yes or no for the degree?

Huh?

That's like saying what about yes or no for how tall someone is: there are only two choices: tall or not tall. No difference between 6 feet and 7 feet tall.

Why bother to have a competition?

So it doesn't matter if one skater is better than another? Either they are tall enough to ride on this ride (compete internationally) or they are not, and the skater who is excellent at the Olympics gets no more reward than the skater who is just barely good enough to qualify?

Let's take two Olympic longs, Carolina's and Yuna's. How would you judge? Whose is of better quality?

Are we talking just about choreography, or all the program component areas, or all aspects of the programs including the elements?

We could each break down the various criteria and determine which areas we think Carolina was better than Yuna and vice versa, and then add them up to determine who was better overall. In this case, I think these two skaters were very close and I would expect similar marks if we're marking them, differences of opinion (i.e., mixed ordinals) if we were ranking them.

But if the point is that all choreography that is adequate is equal, that means that if Elizaveta Ukolova's (23rd in the Olympic free skate with the lowest PCS) choreography was deemed adequate for her to compete at this level, if she got a Yes and not a No for her choreography, then then it's worth exactly the same as Kostner's or Kim's.

Everyone who got a Yes for choreography is on a completely even playing field, and competitions will be decided purely by technical elements and maybe the technical quality and content between the elements. So why bother to spend any energy on being more than just adequate to earn that Yes, especially if putting energy into performing to the music makes it harder to execute the elements?

 

[Mathman]

Uhm, all right; but there's also practical side. Let's take two Olympic longs, Carolina's and Yuna's. How would you judge? Whose is of better quality?

I preferred Kim's long program, although I liked Kostner's short program the best. I am not an expert skating judge, though, so I do cannot really say anything more than that. I do not have any problem with Sotnikova's win; she gave an excellent performance.

Under ordinal judging, with a panel of nine judges (more would be better), it is the skater's job to win the approval of a majority of the judges. A skater might win by a score of 6 to 3, instead of 194.57 to 187.28. I cannot see that the judging is better, or worse, under the current system compared to the old. Indeed, it is somewhat fraudulent to say that the scoring is more scientific now, as if that 194.57 has the same precision as a high jumper who clears 194,57 centimeters.

People are actually better at ranking performances -- this performance was better that that, but not a s good as the other one -- than at saying, this performance objectively deserves a 6.25 (not a 6.00 or a 6.50) in musical interpretation. That is the basis of ordinal judging. I cannot see that a point-based system is an improvement.

But anyway, that ship has sailed.

 

[kslr0816]

given that people are still talking about some of the old controversies, it seems this one will continue to be talked about as well, and will be spoken of as an injustice unless they fix it. especially given 2018 will be in S. Korea.

It's just outrageous. Less than a point under Yuna OGM 2010, and actually beat her 2013 Les Mis... is there anything "normal" people can do to actually influence anything? Seems the powers that be don't care, don't care about any petition, don't care about Korea's formal complaint, and don't care whatever anyone else says about it.

 

[Anna K.]

Huh?

That's like saying what about yes or no for how tall someone is: there are only two choices: tall or not tall. No difference between 6 feet and 7 feet tall.

Why bother to have a competition?

So it doesn't matter if one skater is better than another? Either they are tall enough to ride on this ride (compete internationally) or they are not, and the skater who is excellent at the Olympics gets no more reward than the skater who is just barely good enough to qualify?

I actually meant a degree for every feet, sticking to your example. The person is either "yes" five feet, and then "yes" six feet or seven when he/she grows to that. It would materialize the ranking system that judges already have in their heads but it would make it more transparent and not depending on the nationality or mood of the actual judge in the actual event.

Like, Caro and Yuna are obviously the same class. If I should judge them I'd toss a coin.

 

[starrynight]

Wow, this is a real heavy blow to the NYTimes' "Move-to-Move" analysis:

http://www.feverskating.com/fevers/sochi2014/65081423

 

[louisa05]

One of the things in all of this that really bothered me was Speedy's very dismissive response to the problem of conflict of interest with Piseev's wife being a judge. I'm a little surprised that the mainstream media is letting that go. If the Seahawks' owner's son was a ref at the Super Bowl, no one would have let the NFL dismiss it so easily.

 

[fay]

Wow, this is a real heavy blow to the NYTimes' "Move-to-Move" analysis:

http://www.feverskating.com/fevers/sochi2014/65081423

awesome! thank you!

 

[yelyoh]

So NBC and The Times are justifying Adelina's higher marks and doctoring a pic so that she looks taller. What is their agenda? Very smarmy on their part. Oh and good for Gracie to her comments.

 

[Ven]

One of the things in all of this that really bothered me was Speedy's very dismissive response to the problem of conflict of interest with Piseev's wife being a judge. I'm a little surprised that the mainstream media is letting that go. If the Seahawks' owner's son was a ref at the Super Bowl, no one would have let the NFL dismiss it so easily.

Corruption is so endemic to this sport, and the authorities have shown no interest to address this, that I think it's time we start to demand an end to competitive figure skating. The ISU should be stripped of all authority, and the sport should be dropped from the IOC.

 

[Ven]

Should competitive figure skating be eliminated?

It seems the ISU has no interest to address clear conflicts of interest and systemic corruption endemic to the sport.

In light of this, and the ISU's disregard for clean competition and fair play, perhaps it's time the ISU be stripped of its powers, and the IOC drop figure skating from Olympic competitions.

Skaters could still perform in shows, which seems like the best place since issues of cheating and corruption are not even addressed seriously.

Thoughts by all? Has figure skating turned into the WWE of Olympic competitions?

 

[Olympia]

Naah. We can put up with it just for the pleasure of seeing skating. If the skaters can live through the frustration, why can't we?

 

[kslr0816]

while i don't think anyone wants that, like i said in an earlier post, how can any one of us really do anything? obviously they don't care about complaints, petitions, whatever. who keeps them in check?

 

[Anna K.]

No, the skating shouldn't be eliminated, only judges.

Right, I'm promoting my own thread
http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?49481-Future-Skating-with-no-Judges

 

[Barb]

The most of people watching fs in olympic games are not figure skating fans, they NOT NOTED the supposed fraude, they only to enjoy the sport each four years. Most of them only said I liked the best Yulia, Mao, Yuna, or whoever but they are not upset because the places and they will watch it again in 2018.

 

[louisa05]

It seems the ISU has no interest to address clear conflicts of interest and systemic corruption endemic to the sport.

In light of this, and the ISU's disregard for clean competition and fair play, perhaps it's time the ISU be stripped of its powers, and the IOC drop figure skating from Olympic competitions.

Skaters could still perform in shows, which seems like the best place since issues of cheating and corruption are not even addressed seriously.

Thoughts by all? Has figure skating turned into the WWE of Olympic competitions?

If competitive skating ends, show skating will end. It will merely be an expensive hobby and no one will progress to the levels of the current elite skaters. There will be no motivation to do so.

I do think that fans need to find a way to push the IOC to step in, though. I think the threat of being thrown out of the Olympics is the only thing that will make the ISU even think about addressing its problems.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

If you don't like the competitions, don't watch them. Why should they end competitive skating because uberfans of one skater aren't happy that she got out jumped?

 

[Skatetomusic]

I say Yuri Balkov(?) one of the corrupt judges be banned from judging competitions. He is one of the corrupt judges.

 

[elif]

Of course. I want to watch sports like athletics or swimming or biatlon or bicycle, because they have no judge. Only bad thing is my idols's medals can be stripped after 5-10 years because of doping but hey, they are still better than any figure skaters out there Figure skaters doesn't deserve medals.