The Judging Controversy Thread
- Thread starter Andre Smith
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^
In case you're refering to me?
In case you're refering to me?
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There really shouldn't be anything to hide. Maybe also a selection from the pre-event meeting where tech panel/judges discuss how tight/loose they plan to call.
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Totally agree re: Jason. Was only using him as an example b/c he is so incredibly good at drawing audiences in and he certainly did connect w/ the Sochi audience. I was just trying to make the point that an indifferent or (worse yet) hostile audience could make it harder for anyone to give his/her best performance, which could have a negative effect on the PCS.
The fact that Jason was able to make that connection in a not-so-friendly atmosphere speaks volumes about his talent as a performer. Talent aside, that gazllion-megawatt smile of his might be seen as an unfair advantage by some!
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I'd totally support anything that promotes greater transparency in the judging process.
Lol! Fact! The Czechs and Slovaks didn't like the soviet troops in Czechoslovakia! Communists were overthrown in 1989. The country broke apart in 1993. Anyone who could possibly think there is some kind collusion between Russian and Czechs and or Slovaks now because of the invasion is mistaken! Czechs and Slovaks aren't even united anymore!
- Joined
- Feb 17, 2010
Oh please. Us "detractors" believe the placement was right, if not the margin. Cheating makes a win meaningless.
- Joined
- Feb 17, 2010
It all boils down to this, and you Yuna fans have not once addressed this with any credibility: which SEVEN judges are you alleging cheated, if your assertion is that only a cheater would have placed Adelina ahead of Yuna? Because seven did just that. If you are going to tell me your position is SEVEN judges cheated then there isn't much point doing any sort of analysis.
my address to that is that i don't necessarily believe there was CHEATING. i believe there was unbiased and unfair judging and scoring of points that resulted in an incorrect order on the podium.
It is impossible to substantiate suspicions without an investigation. The outrage and reaction does not have to do with Yuna fans, and doesn't have to do with the sure fire notion that the judges conspired to make Adelina 1st. It has to do with the mismatch between the judges scores and the skaters' performances. This is true for many of the performances of the night, not just Yuna's or the Russians. Again, reducing the whole controversy to "Yuna Bots" is absurd.
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2010
Sigh... What an utter sham of a judging disaster?!
Completely anti Olympic spirit, biased, prejudiced, ugly. Only to be bailed out by a graceful champion who were able to expose the fix by skating perfect against all the odds stacked against her. Had Yuna Kim, Carolina Kostner, Mao Asada faulted, the whole thing might not be obvious and easily swept under the carpet. For starters, they wouldn't need to go as extreme as to over mark Adelina to 149 (Yuna to skate last, her last WC record was 148) to ensure a win. It is lucky for the sport then, Kim didn't make a fuss. Had she be in Gracie's place representing USA, or even Asada's place in positions for a gold then the whole thing can blow up to become even more ugly. I doubt the sport can survive such a thing.
Sadly this judging disaster turn out to be even worse than I foretold since observing the unprecedented crazy amount of PCS inflation this season, particularly at European Championship where Adelina climbed her PCS by 9 points. I was assured by many members here that are normal this season although nobody can explain exactly why. Remember the fuss I warned about PCS is really fishy, artificial? It took Yuna kim 7 seasons of consistent GP golds, GPF golds medals, WC medals to gain her PCS from 60 to 74 here. It took Adelina who has never medalled at a GPF series or have any WC medals to spoke of, who's highest ranking was 9th last world behind the likes of Li Zi Jun, Osmond, Gracie, to gained her inflated PCS from 60 - 74 in merely a few weeks. This is not even her first Sr. season. Her total score boosted in FS got boosted by some 50+ points since start of this season in November 2013, which saw her PCS inflated from 60 to 69 at Europeans (announced as part of the Russia National team), then 74 at the Olympics.
Even if we are to remove all these COP maths together, does it make sense a skater of Adelina's caliber can beat the top 3 world champions of this sport who all delivered their career best FS skates here, with no visible errors by a flawed performance that is also poorer conceived and choreographed program (not even Schindler's list) but Adelina's old Junior program back in 2011. She did it by 5 points! Practically a landslide. Hello?! This is simply crazy!
There are those who can argue on the math, but that would be falling right into this black hole trap of the COP, where PCS are not used properly for its stated purpose. Especially they even broke all these rules about marking according to narrow set of corridor for PCS.
Here are couple of samples of Adelina's scoring sheet from few weeks ago
GPF FS total score score 104.92, PCS 60.47
http://www.isuresults.com/results/gpf1314/gpf1314_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf
Her PCS were all 7.71, 7.5, 7.29, 7.68, 7.61
Cup of China FS total score 108.67, PCS 60.31
http://www.isuresults.com/results/gpchn2013/gpchn2013_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf
Had she been getting the incremental (+-0.25 to 0.5) according to these acceptable corridor of PCS judging ISU judges prescribed, there's just no way she can be getting these 9.75s in PCS at the Olympics all of a sudden. ISU broke their own application of the rules/standards to ensure her win here, while repressing every ladies for the last few seasons minimize getting into 9s, that ladies has always been getting low PCS that seem disproportionate to the men.
Judges at the Free Skate event
http://ohnotheydidnt.livejournal.com/85886191.html
http://oi62.tinypic.com/2hx35na.jpg
Is it any surprise to see 2 of the replacement judges here for the Sochi Free skate are the very same judges who were able to give Adelina and Yulia massive PCS boosts at the Europeans Championship? They are
Helene Cucuphat of France
Alla Shekhovtseva (wife of Director General of Russian Skating Federation).
Yury Balkov already mentioned as the disgraced judged who got banned from Nagano scandal and took part in the Salt lake games in ice dance? His inclusion alone is massive suspicious.
The Estonia Judge Zanna Kulik also previously judged Adelina at 2012 Junior Worlds. I mean seriously... it does't look good for a fair and unbiased Olympic international judging panel does it? Aren't there more qualified experienced judges from impartial background with no conflict of interests? How can Speedy get it so wrong unless it was deliberate? Just how big are the judging organisation to have to come up with these particular set of 9 judges for the ladies FS where 4/9 is suspicious?
On top of that the technical panel is headed by a formal Vice President of Russia Skating Federation, who is also the chairman of the ISU technical committee who has been in power since 2002 Salt lake. Coincident timing? He is someone who knows the system well, who have contribute write and determines the rules and levels, who will certain be familiar with the vulnerability of the system and where things can be done 'legally' with in the rules and parameter he set, UNLESS he chose to break it himself.
During my 4 years here (enough for a degree) , I have raised numerous issues on the system, like why are many ladies were getting step level 4s than before (strict on this competition except for Russian skaters), why tech panel have such a large power over the levels and UR calls. Who are judging the judges? Who can prove they made the right call, are wrong calls like human error noted and accounted for? Why these so called corridor of PCS of +-0.25 to +-0.5 is acceptable ways to mark these artistic marks contrary to what is being seen on the day. Why we are seeing so many generous GEOs these past years compare with Vancouver. Why ladies has always been getting consistently lower PCS than the mens when there are factoring so it doesn't really matter. What happened at Sochi may have answered a few of those questions. Can i prove anything? No.
I have express the need about accountability, transparency, and the problem with anonymous judging without quantifiable measurable factual stats in support since the very beginning. Why there are no revision process/recaliberation process between competitions, or within the same competition to minimize human error, to conform to a consistent standard, and left the system vulnerable to momentum manipulation. One of my conclusion at the time was that unless it was deliberate. That the current system is so easy to cheat by just control the tech panel on the levels and UR calls, and to have at least 2 judges in your favour can impact the result substantially (I think might have been part of the Patrick Iben interview I read a while ago). It is just terribly sad everything I feared would happen one day DID happen in spectacular fashion on one of the best nights of ladies figure skating. It should be a happy occasion, but instead I was in tears, angry frustration that everything I thought I knew and believed about the COP is out of the window. I don't think I can ever recover being a skating fan again. Why should I, when this sport refuse to take itself seriously and are run by bunch of crooks?
...finally just who is this disgusting guy? I am truly appalled by this whole mess, so much sabotages and unfair play in an OLYMPIC event, which is suppose to be a celebration of sport ends up being a complete utter sham.
http://i.imgur.com/iq3IxB6.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/AtJ92Ip.jpg
Completely anti Olympic spirit, biased, prejudiced, ugly. Only to be bailed out by a graceful champion who were able to expose the fix by skating perfect against all the odds stacked against her. Had Yuna Kim, Carolina Kostner, Mao Asada faulted, the whole thing might not be obvious and easily swept under the carpet. For starters, they wouldn't need to go as extreme as to over mark Adelina to 149 (Yuna to skate last, her last WC record was 148) to ensure a win. It is lucky for the sport then, Kim didn't make a fuss. Had she be in Gracie's place representing USA, or even Asada's place in positions for a gold then the whole thing can blow up to become even more ugly. I doubt the sport can survive such a thing.
Sadly this judging disaster turn out to be even worse than I foretold since observing the unprecedented crazy amount of PCS inflation this season, particularly at European Championship where Adelina climbed her PCS by 9 points. I was assured by many members here that are normal this season although nobody can explain exactly why. Remember the fuss I warned about PCS is really fishy, artificial? It took Yuna kim 7 seasons of consistent GP golds, GPF golds medals, WC medals to gain her PCS from 60 to 74 here. It took Adelina who has never medalled at a GPF series or have any WC medals to spoke of, who's highest ranking was 9th last world behind the likes of Li Zi Jun, Osmond, Gracie, to gained her inflated PCS from 60 - 74 in merely a few weeks. This is not even her first Sr. season. Her total score boosted in FS got boosted by some 50+ points since start of this season in November 2013, which saw her PCS inflated from 60 to 69 at Europeans (announced as part of the Russia National team), then 74 at the Olympics.
Even if we are to remove all these COP maths together, does it make sense a skater of Adelina's caliber can beat the top 3 world champions of this sport who all delivered their career best FS skates here, with no visible errors by a flawed performance that is also poorer conceived and choreographed program (not even Schindler's list) but Adelina's old Junior program back in 2011. She did it by 5 points! Practically a landslide. Hello?! This is simply crazy!
There are those who can argue on the math, but that would be falling right into this black hole trap of the COP, where PCS are not used properly for its stated purpose. Especially they even broke all these rules about marking according to narrow set of corridor for PCS.
Here are couple of samples of Adelina's scoring sheet from few weeks ago
GPF FS total score score 104.92, PCS 60.47
http://www.isuresults.com/results/gpf1314/gpf1314_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf
Her PCS were all 7.71, 7.5, 7.29, 7.68, 7.61
Cup of China FS total score 108.67, PCS 60.31
http://www.isuresults.com/results/gpchn2013/gpchn2013_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf
Had she been getting the incremental (+-0.25 to 0.5) according to these acceptable corridor of PCS judging ISU judges prescribed, there's just no way she can be getting these 9.75s in PCS at the Olympics all of a sudden. ISU broke their own application of the rules/standards to ensure her win here, while repressing every ladies for the last few seasons minimize getting into 9s, that ladies has always been getting low PCS that seem disproportionate to the men.
Judges at the Free Skate event
http://ohnotheydidnt.livejournal.com/85886191.html
http://oi62.tinypic.com/2hx35na.jpg
Is it any surprise to see 2 of the replacement judges here for the Sochi Free skate are the very same judges who were able to give Adelina and Yulia massive PCS boosts at the Europeans Championship? They are
Helene Cucuphat of France
Alla Shekhovtseva (wife of Director General of Russian Skating Federation).
Yury Balkov already mentioned as the disgraced judged who got banned from Nagano scandal and took part in the Salt lake games in ice dance? His inclusion alone is massive suspicious.
The Estonia Judge Zanna Kulik also previously judged Adelina at 2012 Junior Worlds. I mean seriously... it does't look good for a fair and unbiased Olympic international judging panel does it? Aren't there more qualified experienced judges from impartial background with no conflict of interests? How can Speedy get it so wrong unless it was deliberate? Just how big are the judging organisation to have to come up with these particular set of 9 judges for the ladies FS where 4/9 is suspicious?
On top of that the technical panel is headed by a formal Vice President of Russia Skating Federation, who is also the chairman of the ISU technical committee who has been in power since 2002 Salt lake. Coincident timing? He is someone who knows the system well, who have contribute write and determines the rules and levels, who will certain be familiar with the vulnerability of the system and where things can be done 'legally' with in the rules and parameter he set, UNLESS he chose to break it himself.
During my 4 years here (enough for a degree) , I have raised numerous issues on the system, like why are many ladies were getting step level 4s than before (strict on this competition except for Russian skaters), why tech panel have such a large power over the levels and UR calls. Who are judging the judges? Who can prove they made the right call, are wrong calls like human error noted and accounted for? Why these so called corridor of PCS of +-0.25 to +-0.5 is acceptable ways to mark these artistic marks contrary to what is being seen on the day. Why we are seeing so many generous GEOs these past years compare with Vancouver. Why ladies has always been getting consistently lower PCS than the mens when there are factoring so it doesn't really matter. What happened at Sochi may have answered a few of those questions. Can i prove anything? No.
I have express the need about accountability, transparency, and the problem with anonymous judging without quantifiable measurable factual stats in support since the very beginning. Why there are no revision process/recaliberation process between competitions, or within the same competition to minimize human error, to conform to a consistent standard, and left the system vulnerable to momentum manipulation. One of my conclusion at the time was that unless it was deliberate. That the current system is so easy to cheat by just control the tech panel on the levels and UR calls, and to have at least 2 judges in your favour can impact the result substantially (I think might have been part of the Patrick Iben interview I read a while ago). It is just terribly sad everything I feared would happen one day DID happen in spectacular fashion on one of the best nights of ladies figure skating. It should be a happy occasion, but instead I was in tears, angry frustration that everything I thought I knew and believed about the COP is out of the window. I don't think I can ever recover being a skating fan again. Why should I, when this sport refuse to take itself seriously and are run by bunch of crooks?
...finally just who is this disgusting guy? I am truly appalled by this whole mess, so much sabotages and unfair play in an OLYMPIC event, which is suppose to be a celebration of sport ends up being a complete utter sham.
http://i.imgur.com/iq3IxB6.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/AtJ92Ip.jpg
Thank you, os168. This kind of pre-judging and manipulation hurt skaters, fans, and everyone involved. The shameless gifting of gold medal (and silver as well if there was a sliver of plausible deniability) and the process to get there were so transparent that even those who wanted upsets and drama in the Olympics are stunned. (Surely they did not predict Adelina's gold)
This gold medal is already tainted. The current and the future generations will remember the sham nature of these Olympics. Just ask the skaters who participated. They will speak out once they no longer need to fear their federations. The protocols (before, during, after), prior history of the people involved, and video tapes of actual event that recorded this sordid history will not be erased, but will be studied and analysed. No matter how they want to sugarcoat it as a "heat in the moment" happenstance, they will not erase the truth. I have watched the event over and over, and the truth is right there in plain sight.
This gold medal is already tainted. The current and the future generations will remember the sham nature of these Olympics. Just ask the skaters who participated. They will speak out once they no longer need to fear their federations. The protocols (before, during, after), prior history of the people involved, and video tapes of actual event that recorded this sordid history will not be erased, but will be studied and analysed. No matter how they want to sugarcoat it as a "heat in the moment" happenstance, they will not erase the truth. I have watched the event over and over, and the truth is right there in plain sight.
- Joined
- Jan 13, 2014
I doubt any of that will happen. In fact, I think that people will move on and start talking about something else quite shortly...it will blow over. These things always do. Lol, maybe not the diehards here, though
- Joined
- May 7, 2008
I doubt any of that will happen. In fact, I think that people will move on and start talking about something else quite shortly...it will blow over. These things always do. Lol, maybe not the diehards here, though
Everyone's already moved on irl.
Apparently so. The Change.org petition "Apologize to Adelina" has barely 1,000 people signed onto it. XD
http://www.change.org/ru/петиции/korean-netizens-apologize-to-adelina-sotnikova
http://www.change.org/ru/петиции/korean-netizens-apologize-to-adelina-sotnikova
I don't think the general perception that figure skating's integrity is somewhat questionable is that easily going to disappear, especially people in the countries that have no strong skating federations. They would feel like they're even more at disadvantage than before. Maybe if the judging anonymity issue is addressed, then it could be seen as something positive and that would be at least one good thing coming out of this.
they've moved on with the idea that russia cheated lol. whether or not that's true, it doesn't matter. the public perception is already there, for anyone who is a casual observer. i havent talked to any normal, non-caring/non-skating person who thought adelina won lmao - won legitimately that is. they all think russia cheated. they don't know about stuff like tech, pcs, goe, who's on the judging panel, whatever. they saw the skates, saw the scores, and assumed cheating - then moved on. the majority of the world does not care about ladies figure skating. after this, a little bit less will care.
Plus some sort of systemic safeguard to prevent tech specialists' cheats.
Just looking at the reactions from live audience: http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?49008-2014-Olympics-Ladies-Free-Skate/page74
"This is Russia."
"***?"
"Oh come on!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
"Still first? Wow. Just wow."
"That is a load of bull. She should NOT be getting that score, ***?"
"Higher PCS than Mao"
"Disgusting."
"Gotta be f-ing kidding me."
"LOLOLOLOL. What a joke."
"Cup of Russia Rules!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
"Biggest judging scandal I've ever witnessed."
Sad.
Just looking at the reactions from live audience: http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?49008-2014-Olympics-Ladies-Free-Skate/page74
"This is Russia."
"***?"
"Oh come on!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
"Still first? Wow. Just wow."
"That is a load of bull. She should NOT be getting that score, ***?"
"Higher PCS than Mao
""Disgusting."
"Gotta be f-ing kidding me."
"LOLOLOLOL. What a joke."
"Cup of Russia Rules!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
"Biggest judging scandal I've ever witnessed."
Sad.
- Joined
- Jan 13, 2014
Unfortunately that perception already existed...and was never going to disappear. Has existed for a long time...way before SLC even...over the decades where you could be assured a gold in pairs or ice dance just for being Soviet.
I agree with you about the anonymity issue. When they first introduced that I just laughed because it was obvious to everyone but the donkey brains at the ISU that it was a horrible idea...although maybe they knew that, too...but just didn't care.
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