The Judging Controversy Thread

[dorispulaski]

Celine Nonny, the author of that article, said herself in her next article on the ladies event that the deserving ones won until the ladies event. So she also finds only the ladies results controversial and does not swear by what she was told by the anonymous Russian coach.

Interesting, and it makes the possible motivation of the Russian coach even more interesting.

 

[Mathman]

2. Frank complained about Gracie' s scores after the Team. Frank does not let go of that kind of grudge. Over 30 years later he is still complaining about Linda Fratianne' s scores. I would suggest that Gracie' s PCS went up for just that reason: to placate Frank and head trouble off at the pass.

Gosh, I hope not. I would hope that the judges would not give out phony scores just because someone's coach makes a grumpy face.

 

[WeakAnkles]

Upsetting V and M is almost credible- they have had the Tessa and Scott reality show on tv and they have revealed far too much about themselves. Someone might have believed they could mess with their heads.

Not only did they reveal too much about themselves, they also killed the whole mystique of "are they a couple or not," which did them no favors. But that's a bit too OT.

Conspiracy? More like Swiss cheese.

Head games? Much more plausible.

 

[Ophelia]

Gracie Gold's PCS rose from the team to the individual because she was unjustly lowballed in the team event. She had little reputation and was not on the radar coming into the games (outside of all the hype from US Nationals, which stayed within the US), and she was not skating for the gold medal favorite team. After she landed 7 triples in the team event, and everyone had a look at her skating, the judges realized they should have rewarded her more for what she did.

Her performance was also better in the individual, in spite of the fall, and her jumps had better flow, hence getting more +GOE (she had some tight landings in the team event).

You--and others--need to stop making a conspiracy theory out of EVERYTHING. It undermines any legitimate point you might have about the scoring system and whether it was properly utilized by the judges.

This.

As much as I strongly believe the judging was rigged, the tone of this thread is now beginning to border on paranoia, which is embarrassing and risks getting all of us who had legitimate complaints about the judging to be written off as zealous conspiracy theorists.

@verymuchso - if a few of you are trying to contact the reporter for L'Equipe, maybe you guys should move your conversation to PM.

 

[Mathman]

Celine Nonny, the author of that article, said herself in her next article on the ladies event that the deserving ones won until the ladies event. So she also finds only the ladies results controversial and does not swear by what she was told by the anonymous Russian coach.

Thank you for that information. I was wondering why there was no follow-up by L'equipe on the story.

 

[verysmuchso]

This.

As much as I strongly believe the judging was rigged, the tone of this thread is now beginning to border on paranoia, which is embarrassing and risks getting all of us who had legitimate complaints about the judging to be written off as zealous conspiracy theorists.

@verymuchso - if a few of you are trying to contact the reporter for L'Equipe, maybe you guys should move your conversation to PM.

I don't know if any of us will be trying to contact that reporter. Through this discussion over these 170 pages, people are learning new information and shaping their opinions. It's a process. Many expressed frustration about not being able to do anything beyond expressing doubts and suspicions and wondered what they could do concretely. Contacting that reporter was just one of these ideas. No need to show aggressivity.

 

[mmcdermott]

Another possibility is that the quoted Russian coach didn't have his story straight.

 

[ice coverage]

... they also killed the whole mystique of "are they a couple or not," which did them no favors. But that's a bit too OT.

Sorry for an OT reply: What mystique? Virtue/Moir have been saying for years and years that they are not a couple ... in a Vancouver 2010 press conference (for only-every-four-years media as well as skating insiders), for example -- and a gazillion other times.
They always have explained that when they are performing on ice, the relationship of their characters is different from their relationship in real life.

 

[pangtongfan]

Hmmm well IMO the French should be equally concerned about the rumoured fix in the dance even given how the final results came out. It has already been covered by everyone the womens results at these Games were bogus, ridiculous, and majorly fixed, but that applies to the other events as well just as much. They were just lucky the skates were such they were able to put the exact results they wanted, all fixed beforehand, without causing an uproar until the ladies. However one has to wonder if P&B would have gotten the bronze over I&K without the fixed Games. It would have been alot closer anyway.

 

[bebevia]

2014 Winter Olympics Scandal

Here's a tie breaker for you: 2014 Winter Olympics Bid Bribery

These are just quick retrieves:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ats-and-corruption-behind-Sochi-Olympics.html
http://www.insidethegames.biz/olymp...-bidding-rules-claims-former-security-adviser
http://www.google.com/hostednews/af...cId=CNG.d01e939ddef7d731189c5a1c2860416d.291
http://rt.com/politics/monaco-olympics-bribery-lies/

To summarize what I remember from back then as pretty firm facts:
- The scandal broke out in December 2010
- The briberies took place in 2007, around the 2014 bid
- A few IOC members, including the Prince of Monaco, were found out to be bribed by Russia
- There were other members speculated, but not sure how many
- Putin was personally involved in this

However, 2010 was too late to change the host, so no actions were taken. I don't see a lot of the articles from then - maybe just too old for public archives. Also, it quickly went away with Putin's hints for policies, and rising concerns for terrorism.

One reason I didn't bring it up earlier was because not only was it too long ago, but I was too accustomed to seeing corruption. Second, I didn't want to relate it to the judging scandal, as I believed the judging scandal had its own speculative symptoms to conjure controversy, and that should be considered as more than enough. The reason I'm doing it now is because... I'm just too tired.

So I summoned a Deus Ex Machina.

 

[kslr0816]

Here's a tie breaker for you: 2014 Winter Olympics Bid Bribery

These are just quick retrieves:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ats-and-corruption-behind-Sochi-Olympics.html
http://www.insidethegames.biz/olymp...-bidding-rules-claims-former-security-adviser
http://www.google.com/hostednews/af...cId=CNG.d01e939ddef7d731189c5a1c2860416d.291
http://rt.com/politics/monaco-olympics-bribery-lies/

To summarize what I remember from back then as pretty firm facts:
- The scandal broke out in December 2010
- The briberies took place in 2007, around the 2014 bid
- A few IOC members, including the Prince of Monaco, were found out to be bribed by Russia
- There were other members speculated, but not sure how many
- Putin was personally involved in this

However, 2010 was too late to change the host, so no actions were taken. I don't see a lot of the articles from then - maybe just too old for public archives. Also, it quickly went away with Putin's hints for policies, and rising concerns for terrorism.

One reason I didn't bring it up earlier was because not only was it too long ago, but I was too accustomed to seeing corruption. Second, I didn't want to relate it to the judging scandal, as I believed the judging scandal had its own speculative symptoms to conjure controversy, and that should be considered as more than enough. The reason I'm doing it now is because... I'm just too tired.

So I summoned a Deus Ex Machina.

is this true?

 

[bebevia]

is this true?

The media said it's true, and was the general consensus back then. I didn't think it interesting back then since... it was only a few decades ago, two exactly, the Cold War had affect on everything; that wasn't so long ago.

To add, that bid was the first time the head of a nation personally made the presentation, which was very controversial at the time for the level of political involvement - which was banned, though not perfectly kept, in Olympics campaigns and hostings.

 

[Isabel_O'Reilly]

Apples to apples...what do you think Julia's score would have been in the free skate if she had not fallen essentially twice?
Gold's?

Sotnikova's score bested Kim's Les Mis and almost set a new world record. Would anyone raise their hand if they thought Sotnikova's scores were deserved in comparison?
To say she deserved her scores because of jumping is also inaccurate...she flutzed and had an UR that weren't called.

For the FS:
Yulia only fell once and stepped out of another jump and it was called as under-rotated and not downgraded. I think we can safely say that based on consistent GOE throughout the season that she lost approximately five points and would have scored 205. If she had not fallen in the SP and lost 7-8 points because it was downgraded and she actully received negative points for it we could say that she would have been at 212 more or less, still well out of the medals. When we were thinking she was a shoo-in for a medal we were all assuming that based on the average skate given the order would be: Yuna, Mao, Julia, Carolina, and Adelina/Gracie. We based this on their expected BV, GOE, and PCS. But the skaters all gave radically different performances. Who would have thought that Carolina and Adelina would increase their BV and execute it clean? Who would have thought that Mao would crumble in the SP and lose basically 23 points on the jumps? Who would have thought that Yulia would have fall/downgraded jump, followed by a fall and a step-out so that only having the highest BV planned (other than Mao) and executing 95% saved her from finishing much lower?

 

[WeakAnkles]

Sorry for an OT reply: What mystique? Virtue/Moir have been saying for years and years that they are not a couple ... in a Vancouver 2010 press conference (for only-every-four-years media as well as skating insiders), for example -- and a gazillion other times.
They always have explained that when they are performing on ice, the relationship of their characters is different from their relationship in real life.

People believe what they want to believe, and if they are responding only to official statements, they will often simply ignore the statements. But to see Scott cuddling with his girlfriend...well, what's that they say about a picture being worth 1000 words?

 

[usethis2]

Glad they've got the sanity back. Thank you.

I may not be able to post here for the weekend (business trip) but if anyone who's got into debate without reading the whole thread (carzy, I know), I would suggest the following articles and video clips for quick catch-up.

MORE ON THE WOMEN’S CONTROVERSY
Figure Skating Reference: Evaluating Step Sequences

Videos

Side-by-Side comparison: http://tvpot.daum.net/v/v87a2CxPLCLTHxxCQQJLXGL
Birds-eye view: Kim -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBS2vGzEeZY#t=105
Adelina -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGDkhi9lmSY

Enjoy the weekend, everyone.

 

[ice coverage]

People believe what they want to believe, and if they are responding only to official statements, they will often simply ignore the statements. But to see Scott cuddling with his girlfriend...well, what's that they say about a picture being worth 1000 words?

You're missing my point ... but I won't take the thread further OT.

 

[Isabel_O'Reilly]

In a close competition, psychology might play a part. But the gap between clean Kim and Sotnikova with a mistake is so large that only willful conspiracy could close that gap.

1. Sotnikova's jumps were not downgraded as they clearly should have been.

2. Three ladies experienced indiscriminate rise in PCS ... Sotnikova, Lipnitskaia, Gold. Even Julia's mistake riddled free skate received higher PCS than Asada!

3. The panel indiscriminately closed the PCS gap between the top ladies and the Russians+Gold.

4. The number of +3s given out to Julia (more than clean Kim and Kostner combined!) is clearly inaccurate.

1) I agree, and the tech panel should have had someone who was tough but fair like Shin Amano.

2) Their PCS was much lower for radically different programs and their PCS was too low to begin with, however, I agree that the current amount was ridiculous and Adelina's was insanity. When too high PCS of 33/69 becomes 36/75. something is seriously wrong. However PCS according to ISU regulations is never to be punished by isolated jump errors, especially when there was only two. Ex: Carolina had two falls, and at least two other errors in the FS at Euros,nevertheless she received 71 PCS even higher than she's received at other competitions. Mao also enjoyed a remarkable raising of PCS from 64 to 69 last season.

3) In the FS Gracie skated significantly better components-wise, and Julia was two points too high and Addelina at least 6 points too high, but PCS is really just numbers pulled out of thin air, sometimes.

4)I would just quibble about the four Yulia received on jumps, three of which were discarded, but they all still should have been +2s at the most. The real problem is the +3 Caro and Yuna didn't receive. The rest of the +3s Yulia received on spins which she fully deserves, with a few on the ChSq and one on level 3 steps (which was also discarded, but the remainder were all +2s). I don't think anyone can argue with those, only with the four +3 received for jumps.

 

[OS]

Here's a tie breaker for you: 2014 Winter Olympics Bid Bribery

These are just quick retrieves:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ats-and-corruption-behind-Sochi-Olympics.html
http://www.insidethegames.biz/olymp...-bidding-rules-claims-former-security-adviser
http://www.google.com/hostednews/af...cId=CNG.d01e939ddef7d731189c5a1c2860416d.291
http://rt.com/politics/monaco-olympics-bribery-lies/

Fascinating articles thanks! IF what the articles claims are true that Putin bought their way into hosting the Sochi games 2014, I can't help but to notice at the ironic twist of fate how it all turned out in the end.

The insidethegames article stated it comes down to a close votes of 51 to 47; just 4 votes difference is what separate them with favourite candidate city PyeongChang. Had it been a fair contest, Olympics would have taken place in Pyeongchang 2014 instead of 2018. Then for sure we will have a different podium finish.

Yet at Sochi 2014 - against all the odds, all 3 world champions ladies put out career best FS on the day and went practically clean (what are the chances of that ever happening in this sport?! Let alone at the Olympics?!), particularly Kim with her high benchmark scores who drew last to skate! This means to ensure a gold for the Russians, a tainted judge panel will have to put up all stops to ensure the score is so high and out of reach, and in doing so risks higher chance of being exposed. They put out 149, 148 was Kim last WC score. Had the 3 ladies faltered in anyway and skated earlier and Sotnikova skate last, the score wouldn't need to be high as 149 but something like 139/140, then whole thing could have been swept under the carpet and nobody would be asking any questions. Kostner's previous highest PB in FS at a major international skating competition was 131.03 at WC 2013. Mao's incredible 8 triples program will certainly to be targeted like Kim's was with lower GOEs and PCS, they will find some way (Her PB was 136.33 NHK 2013) .

The funny thing is had Yuna Kim not succeeded in Vancouver in such spectacular fashion putting out her 1st clean back to back skate of her career set up extreme record at 150, she wouldn't be as effective to win the bid for PyeongChang 2018 for Korea that maybe rightfully theirs in 2014. She could have retired, she could have been a more selfish person and not help Korea in anyway, yet she came back and did 148 at WC2013 despite the changed rules after Vancouver that greatly disadvantaged skaters without a 3loop. Had she not skated brilliantly as she did here and still lost by 5 points, then nobody will be asking any of these questions and investigate into the dark past of this sport. Afterall, no skater in this sport has a larger fan base than Kim including the attentions of members of the international press, largely due to Vancouver. Funny how the Olympic Gods worked this one out.

 

[katonice]

2. Frank complained about Gracie' s scores after the Team. Frank does not let go of that kind of grudge. Over 30 years later he is still complaining about Linda Fratianne' s scores. I would suggest that Gracie' s PCS went up for just that reason: to placate Frank and head trouble off at the pass.

Gosh, I hope not. I would hope that the judges would not give out phony scores just because someone's coach makes a grumpy face.

I had also been wondering about this. I remember how Gracie was lowballed compared to Julia during the team event LP segment. Frank complained about it afterwards. And then at the individual competition, it seemed Julia and Gracie's scores became comparable.

Maybe this shows how Frank really knows how to play the politics of the competition. He probably thought shutting up would serve his skater no purpose, although of course he didn't look good doing so.

 

[ILuvYuna]

Videos

Side-by-Side comparison: http://tvpot.daum.net/v/v87a2CxPLCLTHxxCQQJLXGL
Birds-eye view: Kim -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBS2vGzEeZY#t=105
Adelina -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGDkhi9lmSY

Thanks for those! I found this in the suggested list, it's Adelina & Yuna's free skate, side-by-side, birds eye view:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwFuocB9GHE