The Judging Controversy Thread

[capcomeback]

THe skating in the second group reminded the judges of her bombing and she got as good scores as possible in the lp you could get in he second group but she wasn't a factor to win or medal and didn't get the 10s of Yuna and Carolina. It's a fact that falls doesn't effect pcs that much. Saying Mao got great pcs scores in the sp and also got great pcs in the lp doesn't mean anything unique to sochi. What was comparing her sp pcs to her lp pcs supposed to mean? She fell and doubled jumps in the sp not forget how to skate or interpret. It's the history of chan pcs. What is supposed to happen to Mao or chan when they fall or Julia too? All fives in pcs? Julia fell in the lp but still got last group pcs. Pcs can generally go up as a competition continues but numbers are not saved its not a comparison system. 6.0 was about comparing skaters. Cop is not. You say judges should apply 6.0 thinking about numbers to cop scoring. They don't really do that.

This is ridiculous. Great skaters have bad SP's and bounce back and have a great FS. There should be no specific cap on Mao's score unless (as someone previously mentioned) you wanted to use it as a measuring stick for the final flight. If nobody exceeded her score (which nobody did, not even Yuna or Carolina), then score everybody's marks below Mao's. Don't inflate Adelina's, because her FS was nowhere near as complex as Mao's jump-wise (and Mao's PCS should have been better than Adelina's).

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

But is it ridiculous to account for the added pressure of skating in the last group with the best skaters in the event. Right behind or even worse just in front of you? With a chance to add even more pressure?

 

[capcomeback]

Athletes are faced with the pressure to succeed. You either do or don't. Why should skaters be treated any different than athletes in other sports? In golf, the best golfers also go last (and you are paired against the golfer you are closest to). Equal pressure. Just do what you have to do. No excuses.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Since you mentioned that you disliked Mao's scores in LP, I guess you believe the judges were somewhat incompetent.
And you choose to accept their incompetence because it has always been the case in figure skating.

Skate order and home cooking affect scores whether or not a conspiracy is present. We see it at virtually every competition. I thought Mao's score was low but I wasn't that outraged because it didn't cost her a medal. She had zero chance after that SP to catch any of the top three, given how well they skated. I don't consider a particular judging panel "incompetent" if they behave in a way that every judging panel behaves, otherwise that makes every judging panel ever "incompetent".

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Athletes are faced with the pressure to succeed. You either do or don't. Why should skaters be treated any different than athletes in other sports? In golf, the best golfers also go last (and you are paired against the golfer you are closest to). Equal pressure. Just do what you have to do. No excuses.

Yet a golfer isn't judged on his swing but simply the result of the ball going into the hole with as few swings possible. Nor does it matter how he addresses the ball. It's just not the same as that type of sport.

 

[capcomeback]

Yet a golfer isn't judged on his swing but simply the result of the ball going into the hole with as few swings possible. Nor does it matter how he addresses the ball. It's just not the same as that type of sport.

Still, a golfer (under just as much pressure, especially if players behind him is playing well) needs to keep the ball down the fairway, put it on the green and putt the same way a skater must jump, spin and do all of their technical elements. As far as PCS, I'm beginning to think it doesn't really matter from a "presentation" standpoint. All you need to do is hit your jumps correctly (or not if you have officials in your back pocket) and skate (somewhat) cleanly and you'll be scored artistically like Michelle Kwan. It's ridiculous that Adelina scored so much higher in a measure of her skating quality than artistic veterans like Kostner and Asada,

 

[usethis2]

No one buys the argument that skating order should matter to scores. Not sure why that is even under discussion. One might say that it nevertheless could happen in practice; but that was not the case of Mao, and not in the case of the Russian girls, and definitely not for Yuna. (rofl)

And absolutely not for the tech panel. The disgusting and transparent tech panels' manipulation in Sochi is not going to be forgotten.

Google "Sochi, Figure Skating" and see what's displayed. That's going to be how this disgraceful and fraudulent event will be remembered. Rightfully so, IMO.

 

[Julie K.]

Google "Sochi, Figure Skating" and see what's displayed. That's going to be how this disgraceful and fraudulent event will be remembered. Rightfully so, IMO.

I googled "sochi, Figure Skating" and the following came up on the first result page:
* Tessa and Scott open up about Sochi, figure skating controversies - Globalnews.ca
* IOC: There's no figure skating judging controversy - USA Today
* Sochi 2014: 1.5m sign petition calling for inquiry into figure skating - www.theguardian.com
* Outrage Spreads: Was Women's Figure Skating Rigged in Sochi?
* Figure Skating Results; Sochi Bear Resigns - Vanity Fair
* Sochi scandal as Putin blamed for bias judging | New York Post
* Record-breaking petition seeks probe into Sochi figure-skating win ...

Very sad...

 

[Petitefleur]

don't expect that journalists give an objective or honest information, They Are tabloids, They take a rumor or create a rumor and swell , this is their stock in trade. And politicos are behind them. I don't like politicos.
I just note today that Mao Asada has beaten her PB in the free skate in Sochi. I think she'll win at the WC...and Sotnikova will not be there...

 

[cchen24]

Skate order and home cooking affect scores whether or not a conspiracy is present. We see it at virtually every competition. I thought Mao's score was low but I wasn't that outraged because it didn't cost her a medal. She had zero chance after that SP to catch any of the top three, given how well they skated. I don't consider a particular judging panel "incompetent" if they behave in a way that every judging panel behaves, otherwise that makes every judging panel ever "incompetent".

Wait a second... I remember vividly how the whole things played out.

When Yulia's score came up, it did make a big difference in Mao's chance of getting maybe a bronze medal.
Why? Because of the big PCS for Yulia and the lowball PCS for Mao (and questionable < for her 3-3), Yulia's total score surpassed Mao by 2.x points. If judging was fair, Mao should still be in the lead after Yulia and her chance of getting a medal could still be alive.

After Yulia's skate, I thought that Mao's total score should stay on top and her chance of getting a bronze became somewhat realistic because most people would agree that they didn't know what to expect from Caro and Adelina in LP. That was exciting to say at the least. Without the inflation in PCS that Gracie got (61.89 in team event, 68.33 in LP) and Mao being scored correctly, Mao should have beaten Gracie.

That would make Mao at least 4th (I didn't believe Ashley could beat Mao in total score even before Ashley skated).

Now, think how close Mao was to a medal if the judges were willing to score everyone fairly.
Mao had zero chance to medal after SP? I thought so after SP, but I changed my mind after her stellar LP.

Is it really that much to ask for from the judges to deliver a professional job?
All the skaters more than deserve that since they work so hard on a daily basis. They deserve better from the judges.

 

[Petitefleur]

At this level it is impossible to reduce a difference of 19.5 points even if you beat your personal best score, or you should hope that the leading women do make big mistakes. The podium was impossible. 4th or 6th what the matter when you expected the most beautiful medal ? What's great is that Mao Asada, a few hours after her big crash (unusual for her), could produce mentally and physically a such strong program. What a warrior! I hope she wins at WC

 

[leafygreens]

Mao having lower PCS than Julia with a fall and 5 points lower than Sotnikova CANNOT be explained away just by skate order. Mao having lower PCS than Kim and Kostner, and not blowing Sotnikova away in PCS, can be explained by skate order, but no more than that. To give the judges that much leighway based on skate order is ridiculous, and implies skate order (which was supposed to matter less and some suggested even none at all under the new fabulous and oh so objective COP) in fact matters even much more than 6.0, and is another sign COP has been nothing but an epic fail.

Exactly.

I googled "sochi, Figure Skating" and the following came up on the first result page:
* Tessa and Scott open up about Sochi, figure skating controversies - Globalnews.ca
* IOC: There's no figure skating judging controversy - USA Today
* Sochi 2014: 1.5m sign petition calling for inquiry into figure skating - www.theguardian.com
* Outrage Spreads: Was Women's Figure Skating Rigged in Sochi?
* Figure Skating Results; Sochi Bear Resigns - Vanity Fair
* Sochi scandal as Putin blamed for bias judging | New York Post
* Record-breaking petition seeks probe into Sochi figure-skating win ...

Very sad...

Speedy continues with the attitude of "move along, nothing to see here."

However, as I mentioned in my earlier post, Adelina also may have earned some credit in Skating Skills for the fact that she was keeping up her speed through the use of threes, mohawks, etc., in both directions, and not a lot of crossovers.

May have and we will never know. Don't you think it's ridiculous that none of this has to be explained? We just have to guess why the scores were given. More flaws that IJS was "supposed to" fix.

 

[gkelly]

May have and we will never know. Don't you think it's ridiculous that none of this has to be explained? We just have to guess why the scores were given. More flaws that IJS was "supposed to" fix.

It's an improvement over 6.0 scoring. It isn't perfect.

What kind of system could communicate better about the reasons for judges' scores?

Maybe judges should give a separate score for each separate PCS criterion, instead of dividing them into five categories with one score each.

Should there be preset factors determining in advance how much each criterion is worth compared to the others?
Or could each judge get to decide what was most important about this performance and allow whatever stands out most to be a deciding factor (as they surely do inside their heads now)?

Anyone got a better idea that would be practical to use in real time with real human beings?

 

[leafygreens]

It's an improvement over 6.0 scoring. It isn't perfect.

What kind of system communicate better about the reasons for judges' scores?

Maybe judges should give a separate score for each separate PCS criterion, instead of dividing them into five categories with one score each.

Should there be preset factors determining in advance how much each criterion is worth compared to the others?
Or could each judge get to decide what was most important about this performance and allow whatever stands out most to be a deciding factor (as they surely do inside their heads now)?

Anyone got a better idea that would be practical to use in real time with real human beings?

Yes, a better idea would be 1) no anonymous judging and 2) the judges answer questions at a press conference.

 

[cchen24]

Anyone got a better idea that would be practical to use in real time with real human beings?

Most of the problems in judging of figure skating originate from the judges, not the scoring system.
If we have the same group of people doing the judging, no matter how you change the scoring system it's not going to get much better.

 

[gkelly]

Yes, a better idea would be 1) no anonymous judging and 2) the judges answer questions at a press conference.

Sounds good to me.

Or, as I suggested in the DIY judging thread, let the judges discuss in private with the referee and let the referee summarize for the press. That would be more efficient for explaining overarching issues. Without anonymity, the press could go on to investigate individual judges if called for, but the default approach would be to focus on skating-based reasons for the scoring, not the individuals awarding the scores.

 

[R.D.]

Most of the problems in judging of figure skating originate from the judges, not the scoring system.
If we have the same group of people doing the judging, no matter how you change the scoring system it's not going to get much better.

DING DING DING! We have a winner...

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Yes, a better idea would be 1) no anonymous judging and 2) the judges answer questions at a press conference.

#1 is a good idea. #2 would be odd though, I don't know of any sport in which referees or judges participate in press conferences.

 

[shellbell757]

Most of the problems in judging of figure skating originate from the judges, not the scoring system.
If we have the same group of people doing the judging, no matter how you change the scoring system it's not going to get much better.

This! Also, aside from getting rid of anonymous judging, it might be good to have separate panels to score GOE and PCS. I think it's probably very difficult for one judge to do both effectively.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Most of the problems in judging of figure skating originate from the judges, not the scoring system.
If we have the same group of people doing the judging, no matter how you change the scoring system it's not going to get much better.

I'm not sure that I agree. Some people didn't like the result of how the judges interpreted the scoring rules. But the rules should be more closely examined. For instance, on the jump GOE you get credit for having features like good height and distance. Yuna probably has the best distance and tied for the best height. However, while she has great height and distance she doesn't get more credit that someone who has good height and distance. So someone like Julia can match her GOE without the height by doing a step into the jump and having good flow in and out of the jump. I think just having these be "yes or no" is a flaw because it doesn't reward a technically exceptional jump without some other random feature (i.e. being done "with the music").