- Joined
- Feb 17, 2010
I was referring to the periods of no choreography.
The Judging Controversy Thread
- Thread starter Andre Smith
- Start date
I was referring to the periods of no choreography.
- Joined
- Feb 17, 2010
Ubers don't care about that. I was called a liar earlier in the thread for saying the judges in each column for different skaters aren't necessarily the same judge.
Stop making stuff up. You said she "does nothing but skate into" the flip and second lutz, but she has upper body movements into both (as well as preceding both salchows; and she has the Ina Bauer into the 2A combo and she has the final 2A after one crossover after her choreographed spiral sequence). The arm movement and slight pause into the second lutz in particular is perfectly timed with the music.
It's clear you didn't even really watch Yuna's program. Or maybe you did, but with Tarasova-like vision, to exaggerate any weaknesses and ignore any strengths.
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- Jul 26, 2003
Perhaps the Olympics ladies free skate and short program threads would be appropriate for less heated discussions?
I wasn't having an argument with you; I have no position on what your opinion ought to be.Woo hoo! Whoever mentions Hitler first in an argument loses.
Woo hoo! Whoever mentions Hitler first in an argument loses.
I saw it coming!
Unm, let me guess... Could it be that this thread is basically opened by people who look for controversies?
I think discussions here could be and were productive only at times when we talked about the transparency and integrity of judging that could satisfy both sides. Otherwise it's pretty much looking for trouble.
"What you will take" isn't a judging criteria.
You can disagree with my point but it's a waste of time to nitpick my wording. My point is that it's better to have a 3Lz/3T--both jumps rotated, lutz with a correct outside edge take-off--with many preceding crossovers versus a 3Lz/3T that has an incorrect inside edge take-off on the lutz and an underrotated 3T with fewer crossovers preceding it.
Also, FYI, after Yuna finishes her crossovers, she does some kind of move that allows her to accelerate even more into her 3Lz/3T. It is not easily visible on video, but the acceleration directly into that combo is impressive. I only noticed it myself when I saw her live at 2013 Worlds. Carolina Kostner also does a lot of crossovers into her 3Lz, but she then glides across a large portion of the rink and is deliberately trying to slow down immediately before the jump--again, the deceleration is more obvious live than on video.
But that's the thing, though - better according to whom? The rulebook clearly favors one approach over the others; what you personally consider "better" isn't a factor. You may prefer one approach over the other, but if the rulebook disagrees, it doesn't matter. So in this sense, there is no such thing as "better." It is either rewarded by the current version of the rules or it isn't.
Um, actually, according to the rulebook, wrong edge take-offs and underrotated jumps (even those not called as UR < by the technical panel) are NOT supposed to be rewarded--negative GOE should be applied and taken into account. So according to the rules, yes, there is a definition of what is better, it's not about my preference. A rotated lutz off a correct edge is better than a rotated flutz; a rotated 3T is better than a underrotated 3T.
Problem is, Adelina's flutz wasn't called by the technical panel, so the rules weren't followed. I can give her the benefit of the doubt on the 3T, but even unclear edge take-offs are supposed to receive an edge call, and hers was clearly off an inside edge.
Except that the title of this thread is "The Judging Controversy Thread" and a lot of people who regularly post here seem to think the scoring in Sochi was 100% fair and legit (no need to discuss such "imaginary issues" as transparency and integrity). It only begs the question -- If you don't think there is any controversy to speak of, why speak here?
Yeah, I agree :sarcasm:
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- Feb 23, 2014
The problem is that the tech panel threwout the rule book, was asleep at the switch or purposely ignored Adelina's ever-present flutz and UR 3T, so she wound up scoring higher. The OP point is that if an extra cross-over or two is required to build up enough speed to complete the jumping sequence properly, then Adelina should have utilized it. Then we wouldn't be having this conversation. Instead, we would be talking about how Yuna is penalized for cross-overs and Adelina isn't (and how she flutzed because the cross-over would have fixed the UR, but not the edge problem).
Come on folks... You might love Adelina, but can't you just admit to the tech panel/judging FU's (or worse) and see why people are concerned about a possible conspiracy?
The problem is that you are comparing your own version of events with what actually transpired on the ice as recorded by the judging panel. That Kim used crossovers into her combo is not in question, and that Sotnikova used an improper take-off or underrotated her second jump is. So the scenarios you ought to compare is not "is it better to do a proper lutz with more crossovers than an improper lutz with fewer crossovers?"
The scenario you ought to compare is "is it better to do a lutz out of many crossovers or to do a lutz out of few crossovers?" The rulebook is quite clear about what it prefers. To say that you prefer something proper over something improper isn't helpful because that comparison was never on the table. You might as well say "I prefer a perfect layback to a bent leg in spirals." The two aren't comparable.
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2014
The issue isn't so much about a proper "lutz" as with the uncalled UR. The lack of speed Adelina had going into the combination caused the UR. You can call it "Our version", but the camera doesn't lie. People can argue on the angle about the edge on the lutz (but it certainly looks like the wrong edge and Adelina never met a flutz she didn't like so why start disliking them now, lol), but the UR is obvious. The lack of speed is obvious too. Just look at the Youtube video aerial view. You get the general lack of speed that makes completing the jump sequence quite difficult.
Again, you're stating the official view as what actually happened on the ice. That is not necessarily the case and bears some scrutiny when it is apparent that they got it wrong.
The above is absolutely not in question. :disapp: You're telling me, "Don't believe what you see with your own eyes, believe what the judging panel tells you!" No. I know what a flutz is, I know what an underrotated jump is, and that was a flutzed combo with an underrotated 3T. I already said I'd personally give Adelina a pass on the UR 3T because it's in the rules to give the skater the benefit of the doubt, but not the flutz. That was a flutzed jump by a skater with a history of flutzing that the judging panel did not call.
It's fine to defend Adelina's skating, but not fine to deny that she has a flutz. The technical panel not calling it is one of the completely legitimate reasons why folks are upset over the judging (whereas you seem to use the technical panel not calling it to justify the results...just, no).
Out of all the discussions over technical calls, GOE, and PCS, this is the one that I most vehemently disagree with. The lutz is such a stressful jump for Kostner that she only attempts one across both programs (they were part of what contributed to her disasters in 2006 and 2010). There is nothing wrong with Kostner's technique, it is just a very difficult jump for her so she purposely limits herself to one. Yuna Kim, Gracie Gold, and other skaters work very hard on their lutzes. Mao Asada has tried very hard to improve her lutz, but still gets the edge call.
For Adelina Sotnikova to get called on her flutz in most all of her previous competitions and not get called on her very clear flutz at the most important competition of the past 4 years is just wrong and it justifiably casts suspicion on the integrity of the technical panel and by association the scores and results. It's insulting to all the skaters who worked so hard to have a true lutz.
Heh, I feel the opposite way!
If you think she under-rotated her jump and the judges don't, then obviously you and the judges have different definitions of under-rotating. Seeing as they were there, with gadgets, and you weren't, I'll take their version of events.
Re: lack of speed, obviously, a skater who lutzes out of steps is going to be slower than a skater who lutzes out of crossovers. It's not necessarily a refection of technique; it's a reflection of strategy. Adelina's team obviously decided, and you can't call it wrong, that a lutz done out of steps with less speed will earn more points than a lutz done out of crossovers with more speed. Again, a rulebook is clear on what it rewards. They just followed the map.
Well, you claim the flutzing issue is obvious, yet here are the two of you, clearly Kim's partisans, and even you two disagree on what happened. Perhaps the issue isn't as, you know, CLEAR, as you present it?The above is absolutely not in question. :disapp: You're telling me, "Don't believe what you see with your own eyes, believe what the judging panel tells you!" No. I know what a flutz is, I know what an underrotated jump is, and that was a flutzed combo with an underrotated 3T. I already said I'd personally give Adelina a pass on the UR 3T because it's in the rules to give the skater the benefit of the doubt, but not the flutz. That was a flutzed jump by a skater with a history of flutzing that the judging panel did not call.
It's fine to defend Adelina's skating, but not fine to deny that she has a flutz. The technical panel not calling it is one of the completely legitimate reasons why folks are upset over the judging (whereas you seem to use the technical panel not calling it to justify the results...just, no).
Out of all the discussions over technical calls, GOE, and PCS, this is the one that I most vehemently disagree with. The lutz is such a stressful jump for Kostner that she only attempts one across both programs (they were part of what contributed to her disasters in 2006 and 2010). There is nothing wrong with Kostner's technique, it is just a very difficult jump for her so she purposely limits herself to one. Yuna Kim, Gracie Gold, and other skaters work very hard on their lutzes. Mao Asada has tried very hard to improve her lutz, but still gets the edge call.
For Adelina Sotnikova to get called on her flutz in most all of her previous competitions and not get called on her very clear flutz at the most important competition of the past 4 years is just wrong and it justifiably casts suspicion on the integrity of the technical panel and by association the scores and results. It's insulting to all the skaters who worked so hard to have a true lutz.
Heh, I feel the opposite way!
Nah, we disagree on which is more important, the uncalled flutz or the uncalled UR, not on what happened. Stop distorting everything you read.
