The Judging Controversy Thread

[jaylee]

She came back when she had no compelling reason to, having already won all the major titles. And what she accomplished during that return at Korean Nationals, 2013 Worlds and Sochi were utterly extraordinary in my view. Just thinking of her long break prior, how such few competitions she had to prepare for Worlds or Sochi, her foot injury, and then of course, her motivation given what she's already accomplished, I'm honestly amazed at how well she did in her comeback, and that it happened at all. If there's a gold medal for the ability to withstand pressure under competition, there aren't enough Russian Rubles in the world to take it away from Yuna.

I pretty much agree with you. Surprise, surprise. I'm not really upset by the results so much as frustrated with the lies that some folks keep repeating about Yuna in order to justify the results, but that's another matter. As a skating fan, I do value the objective arguments criticizing the scoring in Sochi, because I am interested in fair scoring, but I'm not getting too worked up about something that can't be changed. Actually, I got more emotional about the men's results than the ladies' results in Sochi, though my level of emotional investment in the men's is significantly lower than in the ladies. Go figure.

2011 Worlds was actually far more frustrating (and IMHO, the PCS judging there was far more appalling than in Sochi), and it seemed like a disappointing end to Yuna's career. Luckily, she decided she didn't want that event to be the ending to her career either.

Finishing your career with an Olympic silver medal and two clean performances is a wonderful way to go. Michelle Kwan's 1998 Olympic silver medal-winning performance was an inspiration to Yuna, though Tara Lipinski won the gold. I have no doubt that Yuna's silver medal-winning performances here, and her career and body of work, will be an inspiration to young skaters as well. That's also something that no one else will be able to take away. Performances endure, so people can make up their own minds about which was better. Some will pick Adelina, some will pick Carolina, some will pick Mao, and some will pick Yuna. To each their own.

...back to your regularly scheduled conspiracy discussion now.

 

[gmyers]

You find it somehow difficult to believe that Lakernik and Obranova, who are Russian, were not at all bribed/biased?

You find it somehow difficult to believe that two judges on the panel who have been PROVEN cheaters in the past, and are also Russian, were not at all bribed/biased?

What exactly are you trying to defend? What are you scared of? Your complete denial of a very possible truth shows either extremely poor rationality or extreme fear.

Shared ethnicity is not proof of anything. Baranova and Lakernik need to be proved to have given illegitimate levels. It's true that if gusmeroli gave an interview under oath in a court proceeding she mayb be forced to tell the truth if she saw anything illegimate. The Russian judge has no history of corruption like balkov of ukraine. There was evidence again balkov 16 hears ago with limited cell phones and texting and email.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Shared ethnicity is not proof of anything. Baranova and Lakernik need to be proved to have given illegitimate levels. It's true that if gusmeroli gave an interview under oath in a court proceeding she mayb be forced to tell the truth if she saw anything illegimate. The Russian judge has no history of corruption like balkov of ukraine. There was evidence again balkov 16 hears ago with limited cell phones and texting and email.

Dont bother trying to reason. Eight judges marked Adelina very high and ubers want to keep focusing on two. If Adelina didn't skate exceptionally well she would have had high marks from two judges, not eight. Judges from at least four of these countries marked Adelina high: CAN, JPN, GER, ITA, FRA. Why? Throw out Adelina's two highest scores and Yuna's two lowest scores and guess who wins?

 

[WeakAnkles]

Shared ethnicity is not proof of anything. Baranova and Lakernik need to be proved to have given illegitimate levels. It's true that if gusmeroli gave an interview under oath in a court proceeding she mayb be forced to tell the truth if she saw anything illegimate. The Russian judge has no history of corruption like balkov of ukraine. There was evidence again balkov 16 hears ago with limited cell phones and texting and email.

There is a reason that major corporations, when holding contests, will not allow relatives of employees of said corporation to participate: conflict of interest.

What sport allows someone convicted of trying to fix its most important contest to judge again? In any other sport such a person would be banned for life. Ask Pete Rose, and all he did was bet on baseball games.

But again, you hold on to the fiction that everything is hunky dory while the audience stays away in droves. Like another poster said, there are more people at some high school hockey games than there are at the JUNIOR WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS.

 

[R.D.]

Sotnikova skated well. She definitely rose to the occasion. But...I simply cannot defend the marks she got. Just the fact that Mao Asada, who perhaps skated the best FS I've seen yet, DID NOT win that portion of the competition is a big enough red flag for me...'nuff said.

And that'll do it for me, methinks.

 

[jenm]

I have a question. Do you guys think that Adelina had an idea of what's going on with the scoring in Sochi? Because she knows her capability and how she was scored in her previous competitions. Of course she knows her step sequence was only level 3 (as was discussed in another thread) because they have absolutely been talking about it with her choreographer when they were just making the program or tweaking it for Olympics. Also, doesn't she know her score range? When the scores came up, she was absolutely happy about it. Did not even wonder why her scores were that high. Of course she knows her mistakes, she was the one who did them.

I'm not saying she's to blame or she had anything to do with the incorrect scoring. I personally believe both she and Yulia were used by their fed. Just saying maybe she knows what's up. And how will that affect her?

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

@jenm

I can't speak for Adelina but as a Yulia über I can attest to the fact that Yulia knew it. Right after the team event a few reporters asked about her FS being her best skate ever and she said "That's just my best score"

These kids just skated their hearts out. That much is not up for debate. I do get the feeling Adelina is more of a follower though, at least in terms of team Adelina, where I think Yula is kind of in charge a lot more in regards to her overall packaging. When both were interviewed together you can tell Yulia gets her way and says what she feels...not what she is necessarily expected to. It's one of the many reasons I like her so much.

I think if the Russian Fed wants to use her that's fine because I think she is using them too, maybe even more. She knows she isn't their favorite. It might be one of her strengths.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Also, doesn't she know her score range? When the scores came up, she was absolutely happy about it. Did not even wonder why her scores were that high.

Did Yuna wonder why her Vancouver LP scores were 16 points higher than anything she has ever gotten previously? Adelina's jump landings on 6 of the passes were better than she normally does, particularly the flow out, the control and the landing position. Often she will land bent over or have problems controlling the landing edge. She also will sometimes miss levels on elements and here she didn't.

 

[jenm]

Did Yuna wonder why her Vancouver LP scores were 16 points higher than anything she has ever gotten previously? Adelina's jump landings on 6 of the passes were better than she normally does, particularly the flow out, the control and the landing position. Often she will land bent over or have problems controlling the landing edge. She also will sometimes miss levels on elements and here she didn't.

Yuna was CONSISTENT. She was setting world records here and there prior to the Olympics and the only person to break her own record was also just her.
[EDIT]Adelina never won in any major international competition, not even podium in GPF and Worlds as a senior, placing 5th and 9th respectively. [EDIT]

Her total score was 51.xx pts higher than her performance 2 months ago. And her skate here was not flawless unlike Yuna's Vancouver performance. Tho I agree, Adelina skated very well in Sochi, better than her previous performances. But it doesn't take away the fact that the score she received was way more than the actual score range or value of her skate.

Also, I don't know about your opinion but her take-off, air position and landings were not stable or clean. And your answer doesn't even answer my question. I was asking about Adelina's awareness of all this. I did not ask about Yuna.

 

[Nadya]

Dont bother trying to reason. Eight judges marked Adelina very high and ubers want to keep focusing on two. If Adelina didn't skate exceptionally well she would have had high marks from two judges, not eight. Judges from at least four of these countries marked Adelina high: CAN, JPN, GER, ITA, FRA. Why? Throw out Adelina's two highest scores and Yuna's two lowest scores and guess who wins?

And aren't the two highest scores out of these nine were supposed to be tossed out? So we don't even know if the RUS and UKR judges' scores counted, correct?

 

[jenm]

@sam-skwantch

That's why I asked only about Adelina. I also felt like Yulia knew because of her interview after the team event when she said that. Maybe you're right about Adelina being a follower. She's young and she needed the benefits of an Olympic champion (or medalist) because I heard her sister has health problems.

 

[sk8in]

Sotnikova skated well. She definitely rose to the occasion. But...I simply cannot defend the marks she got. Just the fact that Mao Asada, who perhaps skated the best FS I've seen yet, DID NOT win that portion of the competition is a big enough red flag for me...'nuff said.

And that'll do it for me, methinks.

Yup. If Mao had skated a clean short, and then done that free program, there would be a huge outrage. Mao did 4 triples during the bonus section of her free skate, as opposed to Adelina's 3. And she landed a clean triple axle, which no other woman can do in the sport. And she had the soap opera drama of coming back after that short program. The one thing she didn't have was being Russian, and I guess by proxy the crowd's favoritism.

 

[jaylee]

Adelina never had a podium finish in any of her competitions in her senior years despite not making mistakes sometimes.

Adelina has had plenty of podium finishes in her senior years. Victories? Internationally, just a senior B (2011 Golden Spin); nationally; multiple national championship wins.

As for Adelina's feelings about her scores, I don't know about her specifically, but in general, skaters who have controversial victories (Sarah Hughes, Oksana Baiul) seem to not really be burdened by any controversy surrounding their victory. I don't think Sarah or Oksana have ever looked back at their Olympic victories with regret. Their post-Olympic career choices, maybe in Oksana's case, but not the victory themselves.

So, I don't think any controversy over the 2014 Olympics will really affect Adelina. However, I do believe she will feel the pressure of having to meet very high expectations from now on. Once you've won a world/Olympic title/medal, and you have a reputation, you face high expectations, others will be gunning for you, and it's much easier to be the chaser instead of the chased. All of the other ladies in the current field are hungry, talented, and would love to take down the reigning Olympic champion. Not to mention, but it's not likely that her weaknesses will be continually overlooked when contrasted with other ladies skaters (i.e. Adelina's lack of a more difficult 3/3 in the SP; her flutz; her consistently underrotated 3Lz/3T).

That pressure is immense. Throw in the continued toll that this sport takes on your body, and it's understandable why most ladies Olympic champions retire instead of continuing. (Kind of shows how superhuman Yuna is that she ended up continuing to compete, especially since she had already bagged all the golds to be had by the 2010 Olympics.)

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Also, I don't know about your opinion but her take-off, air position and landings were not stable or clean. And your answer doesn't even answer my question. I was asking about Adelina's awareness of all this. I did not ask about Yuna.

I don't know what was in Adelina's head, but given that Yuna shattered her previous LP record by over 15 points, and Vancouver wasn't her first clean performance ever so it was well ahead of her other clean performances, why would Adelina be surprised when it was her best ever performance?

 

[skatedreamer]

@sam-skwantch

That's why I asked only about Adelina. I also felt like Yulia knew because of her interview after the team event when she said that. Maybe you're right about Adelina being a follower. She's young and she needed the benefits of an Olympic champion (or medalist) because I heard her sister has health problems.

@sam-skwantch, @jenm

Your recent posts made me realize all over again that Yulia and Adelina -- and probably many other young skaters -- are being forced to learn some very harsh life lessons long before they should ever have to. Just one more sad aspect of the whole sorry mess. (Please forgive me for stating the obvious.)

@sam-skwantch, I hope your knee is healing well and quickly!

 

[Nadya]

There is a reason that major corporations, when holding contests, will not allow relatives of employees of said corporation to participate: conflict of interest.

What sport allows someone convicted of trying to fix its most important contest to judge again? In any other sport such a person would be banned for life. Ask Pete Rose, and all he did was bet on baseball games.

But again, you hold on to the fiction that everything is hunky dory while the audience stays away in droves. Like another poster said, there are more people at some high school hockey games than there are at the JUNIOR WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS.

Let me ask you this: what is the attendance track record like at WJC for the last, say, 20 years? Up, down, stable? For as long as I have watched it on telly, I don't ever remember it being in a full house.

 

[jenm]

Adelina has had plenty of podium finishes in her senior years. Victories? Internationally, just a senior B (2011 Golden Spin); nationally; multiple national championship wins.

As for Adelina's feelings about her scores, I don't know about her specifically, but in general, skaters who have controversial victories (Sarah Hughes, Oksana Baiul) seem to not really be burdened by any controversy surrounding their victory. I don't think Sarah or Oksana have ever looked back at their Olympic victories with regret. Their post-Olympic career choices, maybe in Oksana's case, but not the victory themselves.

So, I don't think any controversy over the 2014 Olympics will really affect Adelina. However, I do believe she will feel the pressure of having to meet very high expectations from now on. Once you've won a world/Olympic title/medal, and you have a reputation, you face high expectations, others will be gunning for you, and it's much easier to be the chaser instead of the chased. All of the other ladies in the current field are hungry, talented, and would love to take down the reigning Olympic champion. Not to mention, but it's not likely that her weaknesses will be continually overlooked when contrasted with other ladies skaters (i.e. Adelina's lack of a more difficult 3/3 in the SP; her flutz; her consistently underrotated 3Lz/3T).

That pressure is immense. Throw in the continued toll that this sport takes on your body, and it's understandable why most ladies Olympic champions retire instead of continuing. (Kind of shows how superhuman Yuna is that she ended up continuing to compete, especially since she had already bagged all the golds to be had by the 2010 Olympics.)

My mistake. I meant never won in any major international competition (1st in any, or podium in a GPF or Worlds) . Sorry.

IMHO, I think it will affect her. I just don't know how. When she was questioned about her win in Sochi in an interview right after the event, she was pretty pissed off and was in a bad mood. She also left the panel without any words while Yuna was still talking. Emotionally, I think all these affects her. It just matters how she will handle it. And I agree that she will feel the pressure of meeting high expectations and I kind of feel sorry for her about that. IMO, she too was a victim of her fed.

 

[skatedreamer]

There is a reason that major corporations, when holding contests, will not allow relatives of employees of said corporation to participate: conflict of interest.

What sport allows someone convicted of trying to fix its most important contest to judge again? In any other sport such a person would be banned for life. Ask Pete Rose, and all he did was bet on baseball games.

But again, you hold on to the fiction that everything is hunky dory while the audience stays away in droves. Like another poster said, there are more people at some high school hockey games than there are at the JUNIOR WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS.

On the other hand, look how long Lance Armstrong got away with doping. In spite of all that, there's no evidence that cycling is getting any cleaner. And Michael Vick is playing football again and don't even get me started on A-Rod, Clemens, and....

Sheesh, I better quit before my fingers run away w/ me any more. Just making a point, not disagreeing w/ your basic premise at all!

 

[JayW]

Yup. If Mao had skated a clean short, and then done that free program, there would be a huge outrage. Mao did 4 triples during the bonus section of her free skate, as opposed to Adelina's 3. And she landed a clean triple axle, which no other woman can do in the sport. And she had the soap opera drama of coming back after that short program. The one thing she didn't have was being Russian, and I guess by proxy the crowd's favoritism.

Yes, to me Mao is the clear winner of the LP. The fact that she was not even close to Adelina just makes me mad!

 

[jenm]

I don't know what was in Adelina's head, but given that Yuna shattered her previous LP record by over 15 points, and Vancouver wasn't her first clean performance ever so it was well ahead of her other clean performances, why would Adelina be surprised when it was her best ever performance?

It is a fact that there is inflation in every Olympics and Yuna was a recipient of that in a way. But her performance there was the best of her bests. Her previous world record prior to the Olympics was 133.95 in TEB and let's not forget she didn't do the 3 Flip there. Her score inflation was not nearly as massive as Sotnikova's in this Olympics. In fact, it looked cute compared to the inflation the Russians got. And she made no mistakes in the Olympics. Everything she did there was close to perfection. If you have eyes, please do use them as I'm getting tired of explaining this to you. Her performance speaks for itself.

Again, it was her best performance but it was not perfect, it was not flawless. She had mistakes that weren't called as what have been discussed here OVER AND OVER AGAIN. Why wouldn't she be surprised, she knew her mistakes. She did them for god's sake. But her scores did not reflect the actual performance. I'm betting my bottom dollar that had she received a fairer score, she'd be just as happy. Even happier for a long time because there'll be little if no backlash at all.