The Judging Controversy Thread

[JayW]

I rewatched the ladies sp and I think that Yulia's 3flip in her sp was underrotaded. Is that right ?

I rewatched the CBC version, a couple of times. It looks fine to my eyes. The slow-mo doesn't show any underrotation, at least from that angle.

Actually, Kurt Browning was saying, right after flip slow motion: "her landings have flow...."

 

[Meoima]

For each skater separately the judges are listed in random order. In each column all the marks are from the same judge, for that skater. Then for the next skater, the judges are listed in a different order. We can tell that there was one judge who gave straight high marks to Sotnikova and that there was one judge who gave straight low marks to Kim, but we cannot tell whether that was the same judge or not.

Now that you guys have explained the new system to me, I find it ghastly. I want the old system back. Omg!

 

[jaylee]

I agree with that, but my point is that it is hypocritical to members of the judging panel post-event, based on information well known pre-event, because they didn't score your preferred candidate the way you like. !

Absolutely, protests should never be based on someone just thinking their preferred candidate deserved better scores.

However, protests can certainly be based on legitimate disagreements with the technical panel and judging panel in which they did not act according to the rules and guidelines of the scoring system, which includes but is not limited to: 1) lack of a flutz call on Adelina Sotnikova 2) lack of a UR call on Adelina Sotnikova 3) incorrect footwork level calls for Adelina Sotnikova in her favor and Yuna Kim that were not in her favor 4) inflated GOEs for Adelina's elements.

I'm not even mentioning PCS, which is also quite legitimately debatable. Had the above calls been made and Adelina Sotnikova still won, there would have been significantly less support for any kind of protest, since the remaining debate would've revolved entirely around PCS, which is too complicated for most people to properly debate. But technical calls that are clearly in error? +GOE awarded that is not supported by the scoring guidelines? Absolutely fair game to protest that, and absolutely fair game to question the judging panel for those decisions.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

+GOE awarded that is not supported by the scoring guidelines?

Well here are the scores: http://www.isuresults.com/results/owg2014/owg14_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf

Which judge(s) GOE do you disagree with? Out of the 12 elements, every judge gave her eight or more +2/+3. Is every judge out of line?

Of course I don't expect you to answer because you probably refuse to consider that every judge loved Adelina, but I thought I'd just point out the scores since you think they are not supported by the rules.

 

[NYscorp6]

For each skater separately the judges are listed in random order. In each column all the marks are from the same judge, for that skater. Then for the next skater, the judges are listed in a different order. We can tell that there was one judge who gave straight high marks to Sotnikova and that there was one judge who gave straight low marks to Kim, but we cannot tell whether that was the same judge or not.

Understood, thank you for the clarification.

 

[jaylee]

Well here are the scores: http://www.isuresults.com/results/owg2014/owg14_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf

Which judge(s) GOE do you disagree with? Out of the 12 elements, every judge gave her eight or more +2/+3. Is every judge out of line?

Of course I don't expect you to answer because you probably refuse to consider that every judge loved Adelina, but I thought I'd just point out the scores since you think they are not supported by the rules.

The judges can't mark GOE accurately if the technical panel doesn't do their job. Had the calls by the technical panel on Adelina's 3Lz/3T been made, the GOE for that pass would've gone to -1/-2. At least 2 judges noticed there was something wrong with that pass anyway by not giving it positive GOE.

Also, if the footwork sequence had been called level 3, then Adelina would've received less GOE for it after factoring. But the GOE was excessive anyway given that she was ahead of the music at the beginning and was sloppy throughout it.

As for the other GOEs that I disagreed with: the MULTIPLE +3s that she got on the 3Lo, 2A/3T, and final 2A. Her 3F/2T/2Lo combo also should've gotten -2 across the board for that horrible step-out/all-around sloppy landing.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

The judges can't mark GOE accurately if the technical panel doesn't do their job. Had the calls by the technical panel on Adelina's 3Lz/3T been made, the GOE for that pass would've gone to -1/-2. At least 2 judges noticed there was something wrong with that pass anyway by not giving it positive GOE.

Also, if the footwork sequence had been called level 3, then Adelina would've received less GOE for it after factoring. But the GOE was excessive anyway given that she was ahead of the music at the beginning and was sloppy throughout it.

As for the other GOEs that I disagreed with: the MULTIPLE +3s that she got on the 3Lo, 2A/3T, and final 2A. Her 3F/2T/2Lo combo also should've gotten -2 across the board for that horrible step-out/all-around sloppy landing.

So you like judge #1 scores, as he/she did not give Adelina +3 on the 3Lo, 2A combo or the final 2A, and -2 for the 3-2-2. Can we agree judge #1 got everything right?

 

[CarneAsada]

Well here are the scores: http://www.isuresults.com/results/owg2014/owg14_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf

Which judge(s) GOE do you disagree with? Out of the 12 elements, every judge gave her eight or more +2/+3. Is every judge out of line?

Of course I don't expect you to answer because you probably refuse to consider that every judge loved Adelina, but I thought I'd just point out the scores since you think they are not supported by the rules.

Yes, every judge was out of line. What is so difficult to understand about such a statement? I am hardly some crazed Kim uber. In fact Kim's 2013 Worlds protocol makes me laugh for various reasons, yet seeing Sotnikova have +3 thrown at her like candy makes me puke. The ISU posts their GOE criteria for everyone to see and it's not hard to tell whether or not Sotnikova deserved those +3 according to the rules. Sotnikova is hardly the first skater to be overscored, but she very well might be the first to get a full dose of Nationals inflation at an international competition.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Yes, every judge was out of line.

If that's the general consensus among ubers then really there is no possibility to assemble an unbiased judging panel ever. If judges from CAN, JPN, FRA, ITA, and GER cannot be trusted to give fair marks where else can you get the judges from? The Yuna fan forums?

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Yes, every judge was out of line. What is so difficult to understand about such a statement? I am hardly some crazed Kim uber. In fact Kim's 2013 Worlds protocol makes me laugh for various reasons, yet seeing Sotnikova have +3 thrown at her like candy makes me puke. The ISU posts their GOE criteria for everyone to see and it's not hard to tell whether or not Sotnikova deserved those +3 according to the rules. Sotnikova is hardly the first skater to be overscored, but she very well might be the first to get a full dose of Nationals inflation at an international competition.

I posted about Yulia's scores myself to prove that the entire panel must have been corrupt. I was trying to offer what I considered helpful points in regards to the judging from someone who follows Yulia as close as anyone. I truly thought she was over scored and pointed out all but one or two judges were in on it!!! When I returned to see what people said a few posters took to insulting Yulia and taking shots at her instead of the judging. It's very disheartening to see people tearing down such talent, not just Yulia , in order to attack poor judging. I don't see how this helps the sport grow but then again I'm not sure that's the interest of some posters.

I know some posters over here are being fair but there are a few one sided/mean spirited posters ruining the discussion.

 

[gkelly]

Yes, every judge was out of line. What is so difficult to understand about such a statement?

How do you define "out of line"?

E.g., for PCS, if every judge on the panel was in the same range, then they were all in line with each other. None would be out of line with the panel.

They might be out of line with your assessment (or that of a large cohort of observers not on the panel), or another way of putting that would be that you/all those observers were out of line with the panel.

It's not meaningful to say that a panel that agrees within itself is out of line with other panels judging different performances at different events.

Nor to say that PCS are out of the line with the rules, since there are no rules to define what represent, e.g., a 9.5 performance vs. 9.0 or 8.5. It's a judgment call.

For GOEs, it's possible that all judges could be out of line with the rules, if the rules require negative GOE for certain errors, that error was clearly committed, and the GOEs were not negative.

 

[Nadya]

Absolutely, protests should never be based on someone just thinking their preferred candidate deserved better scores.

However, protests can certainly be based on legitimate disagreements with the technical panel and judging panel in which they did not act according to the rules and guidelines of the scoring system, which includes but is not limited to: 1) lack of a flutz call on Adelina Sotnikova 2) lack of a UR call on Adelina Sotnikova 3) incorrect footwork level calls for Adelina Sotnikova in her favor and Yuna Kim that were not in her favor 4) inflated GOEs for Adelina's elements.

I'm not even mentioning PCS, which is also quite legitimately debatable. Had the above calls been made and Adelina Sotnikova still won, there would have been significantly less support for any kind of protest, since the remaining debate would've revolved entirely around PCS, which is too complicated for most people to properly debate. But technical calls that are clearly in error? +GOE awarded that is not supported by the scoring guidelines? Absolutely fair game to protest that, and absolutely fair game to question the judging panel for those decisions.

You can absolutely question the scores that you find questionable. Actually, you and just about anyone can do whatever else they want. My argument is that it is silly to question the judges' score based on factors other than their scores.

The composition of the judging panel was known in advance. The presence of Balkov and Shekhovtsova on the judging panel was known in advance. Balkov's corruption history was known in advance. The identity of Shekhovtsova's husband was known in advance. Shekhovtsova, for that matter, has judged for years. None of this, in other words, was a surprise.

I ask: why did people suddenly start to find it objectionable only when they discovered they disagreed with the scores?

If Kim won, would it have mattered that Balkov and Shekhovtsova were on the panel? No? Then clearly you (the figurative you) do not have a problem with formerly corrupt judges and judges with familial conflict of interest. You only bring it up when you happen to disagree with their scores. If you agreed with the scores the panel delivered, would you be making noises about the presence of corrupt judge and Ms. Piseeva on the panel? Yes or no?

You have every right to disagree with scoring, but in my opinion, it is silly to say, I disagree with the scores AND with your person. The time to protest the person is pre-event. To do otherwise is hypocritical.

 

[Vanshilar]

I posted about Yulia's scores myself to prove that the entire panel must have been corrupt. I was trying to offer what I considered helpful points in regards to the judging from someone who follows Yulia as close as anyone. I truly thought she was over scored and pointed out all but one or two judges were in on it!!! When I returned to see what people said a few posters took to insulting Yulia and taking shots at her instead of the judging. It's very disheartening to see people tearing down such talent, not just Yulia , in order to attack poor judging. I don't see how this helps the sport grow but then again I'm not sure that's the interest of some posters.

I know some posters over here are being fair but there are a few one sided/mean spirited posters ruining the discussion.

That's how trolling works -- derail the discussion into something that it's not, so that the troll can talk in terms that he/she is more comfortable with. For example, threads such as this are trying to discuss the state of judging at Sochi, but multiple trolls are trying to derail it into personal animus toward certain skaters, without actually discussing the original topic. In other words, to try to move the thread from an objective discussion (what the skaters did relative to the published rules for awarding points, were the judging done in accordance with published rules, did the judges have conflict of interest, etc.) to a subjective discussion (you like vanilla, I like chocolate, obviously chocolate is so much better than vanilla, you just have an irrational hatred of chocolate, etc.).

You can figure out for yourselves why trolls are so desperate to move the thread move away from objective matters (i.e. how the judging was done) into personal taste and name-calling (i.e. each poster's feelings about different skaters).

 

[capcomeback]

How do you define "out of line"?

E.g., for PCS, if every judge on the panel was in the same range, then they were all in line with each other. None would be out of line with the panel.

They might be out of line with your assessment (or that of a large cohort of observers not on the panel), or another way of putting that would be that you/all those observers were out of line with the panel.

It's not meaningful to say that a panel that agrees within itself is out of line with other panels judging different performances at different events.

Nor to say that PCS are out of the line with the rules, since there are no rules to define what represent, e.g., a 9.5 performance vs. 9.0 or 8.5. It's a judgment call.

For GOEs, it's possible that all judges could be out of line with the rules, if the rules require negative GOE for certain errors, that error was clearly committed, and the GOEs were not negative.

My guess would be the OP meant "out of line" with the kind of scores Adelina had received in the recent past for relatively clean skates (especially for PCS). Also, out of line with the rules in terms of how GOE is awarded. I still come back to the sit spin portion of a combo spin that traveled fairly significantly. Still that sequence received several GOE 3s. A 3 GOE should be awarded for an exceptionally well executed element. While a certain aspect of many of Adelina's jumps (i.e. height") was exceptional, she had little carry (extension). From what I recalled her final jump (double axle, I think?) even lacked the height her earlier jumps had. These are all concerns that should be addressed with the judging panel by the ISU. You don't grade a well skated program as exceptional. Otherwise, you have no credibility.

 

[ILuvYuna]

For Yuna's scores, the four I would single out for suspicion are columns 2, 4, 7, and 8 (http://korcan50years.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/yuna-kim.png)
The way to determine which are more likely acting in collusion is to consider what they marked on each element.


For example:

In TES, Yuna opened with her biggest bv element, Row#1 (10.0), which she is capable of executing very well:

Judge Columns..........2.......4......7......8
3Lz+3T....................2.......2......3......2

Toss high and low, and Yuna averages +2 GoE (Actual Average before sov +2.38)

Her next highest bv is Row#7 (7.04x)

Judge Columns..........2.......4......7.....8
2A+2T+2Lo..............1.......1......2......1

Toss high and low = Yuna averages +1 in GoE (Actual Average before sov +1.57)

Her third highest bv is Row#6 (6.6x)

Judge Columns..........2.....4....7.....8
3Lz.........................1.....3....1.....1

Toss high and low = Yuna averages +1GoE (Actual Average before sov +1.43)

Fourth highest bv is Row#3 (5.50)

Judge Columns..............2.....4....7.....8
3S+2T.........................1.....1....1.....2

Toss high and low = Yuna averages +1GoE (Actual Average before sov +1.43)


Fifth highest bv is Row#2 (5.30)

Judge Columns..............2.....4....7.....8
3F..............................1.....1....1.....2

Toss high and low = Yuna averages +1GoE (Actual Average before sov +1.71)



***********************************

As far as PCS, let's look at two different charts, comparing the scores that counted toward the actual average with the scores given by 2,4,7,8 working in collusion:

A. Scores that counted toward the actual average, from Columns NOT in collusion w/ 2,4,7, and 8.

Judge Columns.........1..........x.........3..........x..........5.........6.........x..........x...........9..........Averages:
SS.......................9.00....... x.......9.50.......x........9.50.....9.25.......x..........x...........x...........= 9.25
T/L......................8.75........x.........x.........x........9.25.....9.00........x..........x........9.25.........= 9.06
P/E......................9.25........x.......9.75.......x........9.25.......x..........x..........x........9.50.........= 9.44
Ch/C....................9.50........x.........x.........x........9.50.....9.50........x..........x........9.75.........= 9.56
Int.......................9.25........x.........x.........x........9.50.......10........x..........x........9.75.........= 9.63

Total Average.................................................................................................................=9.39

B. Columns in Collusion. The averages in this chart are taken after tossing out their hi and lo scores. They would probably take this into consideration when devising their strategy, because they don't know how she will actually compete or how the other judges would score her, but they are betting she will compete well, and the other judges will give her high scores).

Judge Columns.........2..........4.........7.........8.........Averages
SS.......................8.50.....9.00.....9.25.....9.00......= 9.00
T/L......................7.75.....8.75.....9.00.....8.75......= 8.75
P/E......................8.75.....9.25.....9.50.....9.50......= 9.38
Ch/C....................8.25.....9.00.....9.25.....9.25......= 9.13
Int.......................8.75.....9.25.....9.75.....9.50......= 9.38

Total......................................................................................................................................= 9.13


The difference is negligible, but remember that as the Chart B strategy is being devised, they are counting on Yuna both skating well and scoring well with the judges outside of their group. Notice that at the end of the day, although the other judges may not have scored her as well as ancipated, the cheaters' strategy was still effective. Their pre-planned scores were lower than what the other judges awarded her (the goal was to sink the score as much as possible, both in TES and PCS) One last time, side by side, blue scores from columns not in collusion, red cheating strategy, purple actual average:


SS.....=....9.25....9.00........9.21
T/L....=....9.06....8.75........8.96
P/E....=....9.44....9.38........9.43
Ch/C..=....9.56....9.13........9.39
Int.....=....9.53....9.38........9.57


Finally, the individual column scores that actually counted for each component (w/columns in red scoring in collusion):

SS.......1....x....3....4....5....6....7....8....x
T/L......1....x....x....4....5....6....7....8....9
P/E......1....x....3....4....5....x....7....8....9
Ch/C....1....x....x....4....5....6....7....8....9
Int.......1....x....x....4....5....6....7....8....9


Column 2's role seems to have the inverse of effect of column 7 on Sotnikova's sheet - it "sets the curve" to increase likelihood that the low scores given out by the other columns in collusion will be included in Yuna's score.

***DISLCAIMER: This proves absolutely nothing lol. Even if you did this for all of the skaters, it's still proves nothing. I am also not a mathematician, and I've put this together speedily over the past hr and a half, so there may be mistakes. Feel free to check my work and/or challenge my uninformed hypothesis. I enjoy a good debate

ETA - fixed colors on the last chart

 

[capcomeback]

I posted about Yulia's scores myself to prove that the entire panel must have been corrupt. I was trying to offer what I considered helpful points in regards to the judging from someone who follows Yulia as close as anyone. I truly thought she was over scored and pointed out all but one or two judges were in on it!!! When I returned to see what people said a few posters took to insulting Yulia and taking shots at her instead of the judging. It's very disheartening to see people tearing down such talent, not just Yulia , in order to attack poor judging. I don't see how this helps the sport grow but then again I'm not sure that's the interest of some posters.

I know some posters over here are being fair but there are a few one sided/mean spirited posters ruining the discussion.

SS- Your points are valid and welcome. Julia is an incredible young talent with a bright future. She will have to figure out the best way she can deal with some of the physical handicaps she has (i.e. height for jumping), but her spins are beyond belief and she is a budding artist!

 

[usethis2]

Hi everyone, this is my first post here. I can’t contribute any technical knowledge to the discussions but Russian is my first language so that comes useful sometimes. Seeing that we are over 200 pages on this thread and no end in view, I decided to check what people on other side of the ‘barricade’ think, off I went and read all 94 pages of a ladies Olympics LP thread on one of Russian fs forums. It made an interesting read! I was pleasantly surprised that there is a lot of warm affection towards American skaters, Gracie & Polina especially, Ashley too. Carolina is simply adored by most, Yuna is well respected but not particularly liked. Mao much loved. But to business! Comparing what people write here and ‘there’ about judging controversy I can report one major difference: most people here suspect biased judging in Sochi, but all people there take it as a fact. There is universal acceptance that Adelina’s win was helped by Lakernik & Co. Opinions on whether she did deserve to win differ somewhat but that it was indeed a home cooked win not doubted at all! Even those who think that she did deserve OGM, admit that it is forever tainted and not as enjoyable a win as it could be, given this is the First OGM for Russian ladies. Do we need to say more? One more observation, general public in Russia ie people who watch FS once in four years were more upset that Julia did badly than that Adelina won. Julia has become a people’s princess these Olympics, the nation took her into their hearts, she is Julie (affectionate from of Julia) to all… I don’t think Adelina ever will be as popular and it doesn’t help that she comes across as rather arrogant in her interviews. Well, that’s about all I wanted to say. And yes, I am not Julia’s fan nor Yuna’s or Carolina’s. I do dislike Adelina’s style of skating but wishing her well all the same.

Thank you for the insight. Very interesting.

P.S. As I have known all along, human beings share common sense. Russians and Americans alike. (except for a few who apparently defy it as seen here.. ahem..)

 

[ILuvYuna]

I would single out columns 2, 5, 6, and 7 as part of the strategy... (and mind you, I'm not totally convinced that it was cheating. It could just as well be a combination of psychology and home-field advantage)...

(^About Adelina's scores) Revising this after taking a closer look. Colulmn 1 has suspiciously consistent GoE scores, and very inflated PCS, while Column 6 shows more range in the TES scores, and more reservation in the PCS (ie, seems more realistic).

So yeah, new opinion: if there was cheating, I would suspect 1,2,5, and 7 on Sotnikova's correspond to 2,4,7, and 8 on Kim's. Haven't looked at anyone else's protocol, tho.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

So yeah, new opinion: if there was cheating, I would suspect 1,2,5, and 7 on Sotnikova's correspond to 2,4,7, and 8 on Kim's. Haven't looked at anyone else's protocol, tho.

You think PCS scores of 9.25, 9, 9.5, 9.25 and 9.75 (judge 7) is lowballing Yuna? Three of those are as high or higher than your "good judge" average.

 

[usethis2]

I rewatched the ladies sp and I think that Yulia's 3flip in her sp was underrotaded. Is that right ?

Yes, she indeed got << for that 3F. It was a fall, after all. She was "lucky" not to get an "e".