The Lone Triple Loop Jump

[gkelly]

Very interesting. Nancy Kerrigan mentions this in her book. She says that one year there was a requirement in the short program of a triple loop combo.

There was never a short program requirement of a triple loop combo. In the 1980s when one of the jumps in the combination was specified, it was always a double jump. (Remember all the 1988 men's medalists at the Olympics doing triple axel-double loop in their short programs?)

So probably what you're remembering is that Kerrigan had difficulty putting a double loop after any triple, so she came up with the solution of doing double loop first followed by triple toe.

 

[Mathman]

Have you ever seen Miki and Mao's 3loop in an exhibition? It's a tough jump by itself.

I don't know about exhibitions, but in the 2005-2006 season Mao Asada was looping all over the place in her competitive programs. Although she did not do a solo 3 loop, she did use it as the first jump of a combo in her LP (3Lo+2Lo+2Lo; she also did 3F+2Lo and 3Lz+2Lo, as well as 3F+3Lo in the short program).

But in 2006-07 she figured out how to squeeze some extra points out of the CoP by dropping the 3L+2Lo+2Lo and going with the 3F+3Lo combo instead.

I really do think, in Mao's case, that it's all about the points. By good fortune her problem jumps are the toe loop and the Salchow. These are the lowest rated jumps anyway, so no harm done by leaving them out. Just make sure do 2 Lutzes, 2 flips and a loop (and a triple Axel, of course ).

BTW, our junior ladies are looking good. Zhang, Mirai and Wagner all did solo tripl;e loops at junior worlds, none with negative GOEs.

 

[Mathman]

So probably what you're remembering is that Kerrigan had difficulty putting a double loop after any triple, so she came up with the solution of doing double loop first followed by triple toe.

Yes, that's right. Thanks.

She said that putting the double loop after a toe jump was hard for her because you have to bunch your muscles up for the toe jumps, but then relax and extend them for the loop to "ride the edge up into the air" rather than explode off the toe pick.

She said she always put her solo loops in the slow part of the program for the same reason.

 

[gkelly]

Not all the best examples are available on YouTube. Here are some:

solo 3loop
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ateuHdpEg8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPHXN4q5vH0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TljA_HC0mwQ

3loop-2toe
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4m44_HPA8I

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJVM2nG976c

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DO-IrkSkVi8

3loop-2loop
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQMEgzV23dI

2loop-3loop
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDrKqhWnlB8

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I don't know about exhibitions, but in the 2005-2006 season Mao Asada was looping all over the place in her competitive programs. Although she did not do a solo 3 loop, she did use it as the first jump of a combo in her LP (3Lo+2Lo+2Lo; she also did 3F+2Lo and 3Lz+2Lo, as well as 3F+3Lo in the short program).

You're not getting my point. I contend that a triple loop is easieras a second jump. It is the solo loop I am referring to. That not only is a more difficult jump, it also drags the performance down, imo. A second or third loop in combo is much easier. These Asian Ladies or other Ladies do not do solo loop jumps except the ones you mentioned. The rationale that they are in combo doesn't fit well with me since I contend that loops in combo are easier.

Cheers for those Ladies who do solo triple loop jumps.

Joe

(I'll watch those youtubes over the weekend. Off to NYCB now.)

 

[antmanb]

Good gals!!! Hence the mention in Blades. The solo jump should have a higher base value, imo.
Joe

Are you joking??? Doing a triple loop on the back of another triple is infinitely harder than doing it solo triple loop - look at the long list of ladies who presented a solo triple loop at worlds compared the two who managed it in the back half of a combination.

Ant

 

[antmanb]

I love Yuka Sato's triple loop. I wouldn't be surprised if she is still landing this jump.

She is indeed - i saw her land this jump right in front of me in Nottingham at a gala. It is indeed a beauty with tons of spring in it.

Ant

 

[antmanb]

You're not getting my point. I contend that a triple loop is easieras a second jump. It is the solo loop I am referring to. That not only is a more difficult jump, it also drags the performance down, imo. A second or third loop in combo is much easier. These Asian Ladies or other Ladies do not do solo loop jumps except the ones you mentioned. The rationale that they are in combo doesn't fit well with me since I contend that loops in combo are easier.

I genuinely do not think it is easier at all to do the loop as the back half of a combination. I know of at least three skaters who's first triple jumps were triple loops. For them (like i think it was for Irina) the triple loop is an easy sure fire jump for them.

Why do you think executing a triple loop in combination with another triple first would be easier? You can simulate the rhythm of a landed jump into a triple loop by doing double threes into it, or by simply executing a waltz jump into triple loop (which would not count as a combo for COP). If it was much easier to do a triple loop as the back half of a combination many more skaters would execute the combination but it is extremely difficult to check the landing of the first jump without the help of the free leg to get both the rotation and spring into the jump. If there is the slightest bit wrong witht he first jump, the second won't come off. Many times we saw Irina doing a 3Lz/2t instead of the intended 2Lp becuase of a tiny flaw with the frst jump.

Ant

 

[Tinymavy15]

IMO, the triple loop is a beautiflu jump when done well. Thankfully, Kimmie and Sasha both had very nice loop jumps. However, i do not see tha harm in not performing a jump that will only bring down your marks. I have often wondered why Stephane Lambiel for exaple alway started his programs with a triple axel, which he either fell on or popped. It starte the program off on the wrong foot, and did not get him any more points tha if he had done a clean triple flip or a triple lutz etc. If a skater has a good loop jumpp, like Mao, then please by all means do one. If not.... Emily, Johnny, Michelle to name a few, then why should the cause themselves injury and dedcutions just to prove that they can do it?

 

[Mathman]

Joe, I get your point, but I am having a hard time agreeing with it. I understand what you are saying, that the flow of the landing of the first jump allows the skater to cheat the take-off of the loop as the second jump.

Even so, there are only two ladies in the world who can do a triple something/triple loop and many who can do a satisfactory solo triple loop, including our three top juniors. So I don't think every skater agrees that it is easier to do a three-loop as the second jump of a combination, compared to a solo 3 loop.

As GKelly corrected me, Nancy Kerrigan felt the opposite. She could do a solo 3 loop, but she could not do even a 2-loop at the end of a combination (this is in her book, Artistry on Ice).

I am sure it is different for different skaters (like, which is easier, the flutz or the lip?)

(BTW, in the post that you quoted above, it is Mao's 3Lo+2Lo+2Lo that I was referencing. In other words, the 3 loop was the first jump of the combination, not the second.)

My question is basically this: If it is easy to do a triple Lutz/triple loop or a triple flip/triple loop, or even a triple toe/triple loop, why aren't all the skaters doing it and winning world championships? Instead, they are doing a solo triple loop (harder, according to your perspective) and losing. It doesn't make sense to me.

 

[Zuranthium]

For me personally the Loop is easier in combination than solo. I simply have mental problems with "feeling" the entrance of a solo loop and it's hard for me to position everything where it needs to be. You're also just naturally getting less spring from your muscels with a Loop in comparison to any other jump. With the other non-toe jumps, Salchow and Axel, you use your free leg to help swing you into the jump. On the Loop, your free leg is just sorta there. So I have problems getting the correct momentum with a solo Loop. When doing it in combination, I'm already turning on that outside edge and my body/brain just feels the jump more.

I don't think this is the case for most people. Dick Button and Peggy Flemming always comment on how doing several 3-turns into the Loop (the Irina Slutskaya approach) makes the jump harder, but it's easier for me that way. Doing a Loop with the "normal" entry is absolutely the hardest jump for me. I've never been able to do a Triple Loop that way (but it's not like I can do a 3Loop in combination with much consistency either...the Loop in general is not something I'm great at yet).

~Z

 

[Mathman]

Great post, Zuranthium. So you basically agree with Joe’s original point.

I also think the CoP somewhat discourages the solo loop, for the very top skaters. To maximize your points (ladies LP) you must do 2 Lutzes and two flips, plus you must do a double Axel.

This leaves only two jumping passes left. What are you going to do?

Plan A: A solo triple loop and a solo triple toe and finish 16th

Plan B: A solo triple loop and a 3S+3T sequence and finish 9th

Plan C: Go back and add a triple loop to your flip combo, a triple toe to your Lutz combo, and do 3S and 2A+2Lo+2Lo in your last two passes and finish second.

Plan D: Plan C plus change your double Axel to a triple. You are Mao Asada.

 

[Mafke]

I think it's a real shame because a well-executed and well-timed triple loop is IMO the most beautiful jump there is.
The lutz and axel have more -umph, but a well done loop as an elegance that no other jump has.

Eliminating (or drastically limiting) the solo triple loop, Reason #457 to hate COP.

 

[Mathman]

Reason #458.

In fact, there is only one jump layout available for any lady who seriously wants to win anything:

3Lz+3T, 3F+3Lo (or the reverse, 3Lz+3Lo, 3F+3T), 3Lz, 3F, 3S, 2A, 2A+2Lo+2Lo (or exchange 2A+3T and 3Lz+2Lo+2Lo for 3Lz+3T and 2A+2Lo+2Lo, etc.)

Anything else loses.

 

[Zuranthium]

You guys are looking at this the wrong way (and I wasn't being fully articulate earlier in saying that you don't actually lose points by leaving out the Loop...you still do overall). The people who DON'T do the solo 3Loop now are the people who would normally double it or fall on it 80% of the time. If you can't do a 3Loop in combination, you still need a solo 3Loop to maximize your points. Those people who leave out the 3Loop in place of another toe-jump or double axle are better off than they would have been but they still aren't in the best position. If you don't have a consistent Triple/Triple combination, this is the jump layout you want:

3Lutz/2Loop/2Loop
3Flip
3Sal
3Flip/2Loop
3Loop
3Lutz
2Axle + 3Toe sequence

Double toeloops will often be substitued for some of those 2Loops. If you don't have a 3Loop you have to do a 2Axle in its place, so you lose about 1.6 points. If you also can't do a Triple in sequence, then this is the best jump layout:

3Lutz/2Loop/2Loop
3Flip
3Sal
3Flip/2Loop
3Loop/2Loop
3Lutz
2Axle

Again, double toeloops will often be substituted for the 2Loops. If you don't have the 3Loop in this situation you have to do a 3Toe instead and you lose 1.1 points total. That's enough of a difference to decide a rank on the podium. EMILY HUGHES would have won the Nationals (well, she should have anyway since Kimmie's "Triple" Toeloops deserve a deduction) instead of getting the Silver medal if had done a 3Loop instead of a 3Toe.

The same thing goes for leaving out the 3Sal. You're in a little better of a position if you don't have that jump vs. not having a 3Loop but, even still, MAO ASADA would have won Worlds this year if she had done a 3Sal instead of a second double axle.

Great post, Zuranthium. So you basically agree with Joe’s original point.

I don't agree with Joe, no. I think that people who are BAD at the Loop, but naturally good jumpers, can do it in combination a little easier. Getting better at the solo Loop doesn't actually help you get much better at a Loop in combination. The learning curves are much different, is what I'm trying to say. The Loop in combination is perhaps easier to get rotations with (only if you have decent speed after the landing of the jump before it, though), but it's harder to CONTROL. Nobody can do a 3Loop consistently in combination but not do it solo as well.

Have you ever seen a combo the loop first and then a toe loop second That would be difficult because one has to concentrate on the first loop.

Todd Eldredge, Emmanuel Sandhu, and Brian Joubert have done 3Loop/3Toeloop combinations. None of them have ever done a Triple XXX/Triple Loop combo (at least in competition).

~Z

 

[gkelly]

Todd Eldredge, Emmanuel Sandhu, and Brian Joubert have done 3Loop/3Toeloop combinations. None of them have ever done a Triple XXX/Triple Loop combo (at least in competition).

Also Elena Sokolova (1998 Olympics)

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Todd Eldredge, Emmanuel Sandhu, and Brian Joubert have done 3Loop/3Toeloop combinations. None of them have ever done a Triple XXX/Triple Loop combo (at least in competition).

Were they all bent over like Tara and coming to a full stop after the first loop jump?

Joe

 

[Zuranthium]

Tara didn't come to a full stop on the first Loop jump (or the second one either...at least at the Olympics). You can muscle out a 3Toe off a jump with a halted landing but definitely not a 3Loop.

~Z

 

[z4mboni]

I
Have you ever seen Miki and Mao's 3loop in an exhibition? It's a tough jump by itself.

Joe

Yes, just now, actually. Mao does 3L in Habanera and Over the Rainbow exhibitions. She also did 3Loop-2Loop in the Nocturne exhibitions during Stars on Ice in Japan early this year.
Single 3L is her favourite jump. In her junior days she used this jump to close her performances.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tQ38Mz6QyI - GPF SP, 3L somewhere after 2.10, last element before finishing spin (in was an required element in SP that year)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGTM6pVq8Nc - GPF LP, 3L at 3.40 as the very last element in her program.

She also did 3L-2L-2L in her LP in the 2005-06 season.

I don't remember in which Galas exactly Miki jumped 3L, but I'm pretty sure she has done it at least a few times (though probably not this season, she had only one EX program with 3S-2T, 2A, 3Lz jump layout IIRC). I think she went for 3L in Clair de Lune EX.

Another skater who I remember landing 3L in Galas frequently is Nana Takeda.

I agree with Mathman. The reason we don't see solo 3L in programs nowadays is that ladies can repeat only 2 triples in LP, so of course if they are able to they go for 3F and 3Lz because of their higher point value and use 3L only as second jump in the combo. Men can repeat more triples, so they do solo 3L more often. Still, they have be careful not to violate the Zayak rule; for example when Oda does his 3A-3T-3L combo he doesn't do solo 3L and goes for two 2A instead.

I also agree with Zuranthium.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

The reason we don't see solo 3L in programs nowadays is that ladies can repeat only 2 triples in LP, so of course if they are able to they go for 3F and 3Lz because of their higher point value and use 3L only as second jump in the combo. Men can repeat more triples, so they do solo 3L more often. Still, they have be careful not to violate the Zayak rule; for example when Oda does his 3A-3T-3L combo he doesn't do solo 3L and goes for two 2A instead.

Why not a 3Sal or a 3T
The thread is questioning Solo Jumps and I continually read about combos all with the easy toepick takeoff. Edge jumps are not easy when done correctly. Toe pick jumps are there to assist an edge jump. Just look how many skaters do a toeless lutz.

The strategy seems to be to maximize the points with the easiest jumps. OK. So put a cheated 3loop in a combo. It works.

Joe