Both Gracie and Ashley are beautiful skaters. However, there is a reason why they are not winning the big championships--and it is not because of "minor errors". Radionova, the other Russian girls and Satoko are delivering when it counts and are being rewarded for it--it is not because of politics.
The performances of Wagner and Gold
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Both Gracie and Ashley are beautiful skaters. However, there is a reason why they are not winning the big championships--and it is not because of "minor errors". Radionova, the other Russian girls and Satoko are delivering when it counts and are being rewarded for it--it is not because of politics.
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- Mar 23, 2014
I'm a huge fan of both Ashley and Gracie but 100% this. I really can't argue with their placements in any of their events. I'm really not sure how anyone can, given their major mistakes.
I do think that Liza and Elena are both slightly overscored in some areas, both in PCS and Liza on her spins...but not overscored enough to have changed how the results turned out. As for Satoko, I definitely don't see her as "being prematurely rewarded" although personally speaking, her tiny jumps turn me off a lot.
I really hope Ashley and Gracie can both skate to their potential this season and make their competitions even more interesting.
It's time for Gracie to start putting it together. No more lackluster skating to begin the season no losing Senior B events to weaker skaters if she wants to be taken seriously as a World contender. She needs to start by winning SA. Having only two clean skates all season will not get it done against the Russians and she was even losing to Satokto which should not be happening. She needs to show that she wants it not just say it because when she has the chance to win she backs off and skates scared. If only she had the toughness of someone like Rachael Flatt she would be almost unstoppable.
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Artistry is very subjective, very rarely will everyone be in agreement on 'artistry'. I feel that Gracie's competitive programs are not chosen or choreographed to her personality and to me it shows. And while a couple years ago she was an elegant jumper, her jumps have regressed and they are not consistent anymore. I agree, if Gracie hits everything (no errors) then she can win bigger competitions besides Nationals, but she's got to hit everything since she's not doing anything more technically difficult than the other top competitors and doesn't have the artistry (at least showing up on the scoresheet) of a Sasha/Yuna that can make-up for technical errors. And she has to do it consistently.
Wagner got 3rd in the GPF because she performed well and the other girls tanked, but she doesn't have the technical arsenal of most of the younger skaters.
And I hardly doubt that 2 US champs, 1 is the current champ and the other is the golden girl of the USFSA and media darling, suffer from an inability to get politic points.
Cesario had an amazing Carmen, what else did she offer, her Carmen should be the best - she did some variation of it for 4 seasons, 2 seasons with a Carmen SP then the 2 years after that a Carmen FS. I loved her Carmen but an artist to me is a Yuna/Mao/Sasha - someone that has variations of programs that they executed well, Cesario has 1... Carmen.
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- Oct 23, 2011
I don't think Cesario could afford new programs by top choreographers. Her heart was in her skating just as with Agnes. I'm guessing money was a problem. Seems there's room for only a couple U.S. women at the top. No money in skating here nor endorsements outside an Olympic year. My point was Samantha could outperform anyone and for me the whole is better than the most difficult triple triples.
I think Grace is a gorgeous skater. I agree her jumps now need to be the focus. She is the best us lady in a long time. Ashley has fire and I love that. She keeps surprising me which is great.
Why did Yuna leave show skating? I was shocked. Her Nessun Dorma is by far my favorite ex program and her last at least for now sadly. She had much more to do I feel.
I think Grace is a gorgeous skater. I agree her jumps now need to be the focus. She is the best us lady in a long time. Ashley has fire and I love that. She keeps surprising me which is great.
Why did Yuna leave show skating? I was shocked. Her Nessun Dorma is by far my favorite ex program and her last at least for now sadly. She had much more to do I feel.
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- Mar 26, 2014
To set things straight Yulia's Adidas video has 3.2 million views https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEg47tzfU6E, her SL in Sochi has way over 2 million views with only Eurosport version at 1.56 million
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ke0iusvydl8
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- Mar 5, 2014
I was only looking in English and saw the one with 1.56 million. I didn't look in Russian, so I missed the other(s).
Mao also has one with more in Japanese as well:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNFBiuFl_G8 eurosport commentary at the end of her Worlds SP 2010 with around 2.75 million.
Plushenko also has a very short clip (10-15 seconds) with almost 3 million views in Russian, but I don't think it is that respectful of his talent so I am not posting the link.
But to be honest, I probably shouldn't have mentioned it at all. I just got carried away in the moment of trying to stick up for my favorite skater. Ideally, I think it's most important to be confident in the skater someone likes if they have 1 or 10,000,000 views. That is a true fan. I hope Yulia is able to get her jumps more consistent this year. She is a really graceful and engaging skater to watch. Now, I'll close Pandora's Box.
In reference to the topic, there were moments last season when I really saw why people were impressed with Gracie. But, I agree it is her technical elements more than her artistry that is impressive in the moments when she is clean. But, in my opinion really well executed technical elements can take on the air of artistry. She has really good skating skills and speed (in my opinion the best last year along with Satoko and Kanako), beautiful spins, and powerful jumps with attractive air position that she sometimes has trouble reining in. I do like the way she goes for them though. I think she just needs to improve her step sequences and find music that fits her personality better. I think she would do better with something that had more fire and fun.
Ashley's LP performance at Nationals was the best I have ever seen her skate technically and was quite good artistically in terms of the goal I think she was after. I can see that she does have her own style that attracts a lot of people. My taste is just a little different. But, I am all for different styles. Great work on getting the lutz back and her jumps were nice in that performance.
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I know some skaters tend to have a lot of their videos removed, Yulia is one of them. So I wouldn't look at YouTube as a benchmark for popularity because that video with only a 100 views may be a re-upload after a video with a couple 100k views was pulled.
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I agree that Gracie needs to step it up this year. She needs programs that showcase her athleticism and the sassiness in her personality. She doesn't need any more princess-y programs.
I also think that her jump layout could use some work to make her maximally competitive given her technical ability. The layout should be 1st half: 3Z-3T, 3F, 2A-3T; 2nd half: 3Z-1/2 Loop-3S, 3Lo (not sure if she can add in another 2A without Zayaking).
Ashley has the reverse problem and is, IMO, doing a layout that exceeds her ability and results in her not getting technical scores as high as she can get. Her jump layout should be 1st half: 3Z-3T (because apparently this is easier for her than 3F-3T), 3Lo, 2A; 2nd half: 2A+3S (sequence), 3F-2T-2Lo, 3Lo, 3F. The 3Lo-1/2 loop-3S isn't getting credited and she's losing the points for the jump without picking up any for trying it in a 3-jump combo. Additionally, her better jump is 3F, so putting both in the 2nd half negates any points she loses as compared to the 3Z and lowers the risk of GOE deductions for ! or "e" calls.
Ashley also needs a compelling short program and to change up some of the transitions/ choreo from Moulin Rouge so it doesn't feel stale the 2nd time around.
Both women need to figure out how to do 2 clean programs at the GPF/ Worlds. There's no reason in the world they shouldn't have been on the podium in Shanghai instead of Satoko and Radionova except for their poor SPs.
I also think that her jump layout could use some work to make her maximally competitive given her technical ability. The layout should be 1st half: 3Z-3T, 3F, 2A-3T; 2nd half: 3Z-1/2 Loop-3S, 3Lo (not sure if she can add in another 2A without Zayaking).
Ashley has the reverse problem and is, IMO, doing a layout that exceeds her ability and results in her not getting technical scores as high as she can get. Her jump layout should be 1st half: 3Z-3T (because apparently this is easier for her than 3F-3T), 3Lo, 2A; 2nd half: 2A+3S (sequence), 3F-2T-2Lo, 3Lo, 3F. The 3Lo-1/2 loop-3S isn't getting credited and she's losing the points for the jump without picking up any for trying it in a 3-jump combo. Additionally, her better jump is 3F, so putting both in the 2nd half negates any points she loses as compared to the 3Z and lowers the risk of GOE deductions for ! or "e" calls.
Ashley also needs a compelling short program and to change up some of the transitions/ choreo from Moulin Rouge so it doesn't feel stale the 2nd time around.
Both women need to figure out how to do 2 clean programs at the GPF/ Worlds. There's no reason in the world they shouldn't have been on the podium in Shanghai instead of Satoko and Radionova except for their poor SPs.
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- Jan 25, 2013
That was the reason though. And a huge reason. Such silly errors and a bronze opportunity missed for both of them.
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- Apr 22, 2014
This is right on the money. There is no scandal here holding Ashley and Gracie back. If anything, they received major favors throughout the year via PCS when they had falls or sketchy jumps. If they had skated at Worlds as cleanly as their full potential, they could have beaten anyone in the field except possibly Liza, but even that could've been up for grabs if they had just skated clean the full season. Clean Gracie > Clean Ashley but both of them can get higher points skating clean than anyone else (e.g., Clean Satoko, clean Elena).
I love Ashley Wagner; I went to Stars on Ice Canada primarily to see her, and she was a joy to watch. 
But it's quite disappointing that some people can only praise her by bashing other skaters and showing such over-the-top bias that it's difficult to take any of their points seriously.
As for Gracie, while I intellectually appreciate what she does (jumps, spins, SS), she (for me) lacks connection to the music and performance ability. Maybe she just needs better programs (I actually liked her Taylor Swift EX, of all things).
But it's quite disappointing that some people can only praise her by bashing other skaters and showing such over-the-top bias that it's difficult to take any of their points seriously.As for Gracie, while I intellectually appreciate what she does (jumps, spins, SS), she (for me) lacks connection to the music and performance ability. Maybe she just needs better programs (I actually liked her Taylor Swift EX, of all things).
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- Oct 23, 2011
No country bias. We make the best all around skaters here in NA.Rochete one of my favorites .Oozed sophistication and stayed on podiums near Yuna Mao. I love Korpi and Caro very much. Miss Akiko terribly and Mao Yuna. All the grown ups are gone lol. That was my point. Sorry if I used skater x as having no style. Lovely girl just can't watch those programs too often. Just my opinion on two top class skaters who happen to me American.
Great to read what the cop cognoscenti feel are best layouts for them.
Great to read what the cop cognoscenti feel are best layouts for them.
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- Mar 26, 2014
The same could be said for Anna, if Yulia and Adelina skated for them as well. Elena actually beat Liza twice during the season and with her A game she could have had the chance for the gold, etc.
The top 6 Russian ladies have all the enormous potential definitely not smaller than Gracie's and Ashley's. The key point is who can translate this potential into actual performances. Last season Adelina was off, Yulia and Anna were not quite good with their potential for various reasons. But Liza, Elena, and Evgenija consistently delivered. With Gracie and Ahley the question is can they in general deliver? I am not talking about 1 competition - it can happen just by luck. But can they in principle have, say, 3 clean international competitions in 1 season? If yes, they can be treated seriously as the competition to the Russian girls. But so far it is just words and expectations: "If the had skated to their full potential..."
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- Apr 22, 2014
I don't agree with you about Anna.
If everyone is skating clean:
-Gracie and Ashley will beat Anna in PCS (ashley did even when she skated sloppy), up until the end of the season they would've also beaten elena and satoko
-gracie and liza would beat Anna in jump GOE
-elena and Yulia beat Anna in spin GOE (gracies spins usually do slightly better too)
This is based on sheer quality of elements, not on execution day of.
The end result is that Anna (again, if everyone skates clean) has about 3-5 points less in scoring potential than the rest of the ladies above. There's a reason why her personal best is lower. And the end of last year will do her no favors coming into the new season.
Again, I'm talking about sheer maximum potential, not when people screw up or fail to live up to the potential. I don't think anyone would deny that Rika Hongo or satoko have lower maximum potential than many of the girls like ashley gracie Anna Yulia. But they were consistent this year just like liza and elena, and that is why they win medals.
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- Mar 26, 2014
Last season Anna started GP with 191 with terrible spins. Then she improved spins somewhat - I would give her 2-3 points for that. She has an enormous 3Lz-3T, some other jumps of hers are also quite impressive - even with the same layout being consistent she could have had 2-3 points extra through higher GOE. Then her tech upside could be around 5 points. And of course, PCS. I do not think she could not match Elena's. All in all 200 was reachable to her at the worlds. Someone calculated couple of pages ago that clean Gracie would have 199. Then they would be at par. Of course, neither Gracie nor Anna had any chance of beating Liza with 2 3As.
When people say the door was open for Gracie and Ashley to get on that podium was because Elena was sick with a fever and Satoko's scoring potential is below both of them. It's not a hypothetical situation that people are thinking of to try to put down the Russian girls. It's just that Anna was injured, Elena was sick, Satoko struggles with getting her jumps around. It was set up for Gracie and Ashley to end the American lady drought and they didn't. It's about Americans not delivering, not the Russians girls not being good enough.
Actually the main thing about not delivering is that its not just "not delivering"
I went through Jr Worlds and Worlds since 90s, for US, Russia and Japan (those countries tend to have more skaters around).
Usually, there is a following pattern: a country has a medal peak in Jr Worlds, and then after that a medal peak in senior Worlds - the girls grow up and medal as seniors. For example, japanese ladies won medals as jr between 2002-2006, and then 2006-2014 as seniors...
russian ladies medaled as jr between 2009-2015 and medal as seniors in 2014-2015, and also 2012.
There is basically one exception - the US ladies peak at Jr Worlds around 2007-2011 was not followed by senior medals.
Except that whole being able to win a Worlds medal, last time someone from the continent of North America won a World medal: Rochette won silver in 2009, last time an American medaled was in 2006 when Kimme Meissner won and Sasha Cohen won bronze.. that will be a full decade since a US ladies skater medaled at Worlds when next year's Worlds happens.
A clean Gracie can easily go 200 points if she skated clean. She just needs to finally put it all together and not wait until late in the season to hit her groove when it's almost to late.
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